If pure jousters had a higher Pilot skill for the activation phase than arc-dodgers, then estimating their maneauvers would have an importance again.

E.g. a X-Wing would have at least a chance of catching an arc dodging ace in its fireing arc when jousting.

Of course we would have to be careful about jousters that can also reposition themselves.

You would just be flip flopping the problem. Instead of named pilots boosting at a higher PS and ignoring the dial portion of the game, now you'd have a bunch of generics doing it.

It would still be a little less annoying I suppose, having a PS 4 T-70 or PS 1 Alpha Squadron Pilot activate at like 14 or 11 PS instead of aces doing essentially the same thing but with game breaking abilities.

So no. I propose simply making bank boosts red. That calms down arc dodging a ton, and ships that already have boost innately would get a discount on Engine Upgrade that would turn bank boost white.

I think your suggestion would be interesting to implement on say, the E-Wing generics. If Knave and Blackmoon Squadron had some super inflated PS like PS 7 and 9 respectively with EPT's they might actually see use occasionally.

The only way to make a genuinely strong jouster that is guaranteed to see competitive play is if you made a small ship with a minimum of 8 health (hull + shields) that has two WHITE K-turns (one close range and one long range), has a base 3 primary attack, and no less than base 2 agility.

Don't give the ship native boost, barrel roll, or evade.

DO give the ship native target lock, focus, and SLAM.

Make sure both named pilots and at least one generic have the EPT slot. Don't make them too expensive.

The recipe above is how you bring jousting back to X-wing for competitve play.

So basically a wishlist of goodies with no intention of paying the price is the fix?

The only way to make a genuinely strong jouster that is guaranteed to see competitive play is if you made a small ship with a minimum of 8 health (hull + shields) that has two WHITE K-turns (one close range and one long range), has a base 3 primary attack, and no less than base 2 agility.

Don't give the ship native boost, barrel roll, or evade.

DO give the ship native target lock, focus, and SLAM.

Make sure both named pilots and at least one generic have the EPT slot. Don't make them too expensive.

The recipe above is how you bring jousting back to X-wing for competitve play.

So basically a wishlist of goodies with no intention of paying the price is the fix?

It's a definition of "X-wing fix" threads

Let me guess ... you lost 3 games in a row against Soontir or Dash last weekend?

I wouldn't necessarily call those two "jousters".

defenders don't really joust either, as per the traditional definition of jousting

If by the traditional definition of jousting you mean charge blindly at the enemy and roll dice then I don't think any successful ship does any more except maybe a badly played TIE swarm. As youi've said before, the game has evolved beyond that.

Nowadays I see Jouster and Arc Dodger as the extreme ends of a continuum on which all non-support ships fit somewhere.

The key distinction between an arc dodger (interceptor) and a jouster (heavy fighter) is this:

• A Jouster has a superior statline to an equivalent turret and arc dodger. Trading shots is in its interest. Therefore a jouster doesn't care about being caught in arc itself: its maneuvering focus is to ensure it gets shots, and it won't risk losing its own shot to avoid the enemy arc. It'll take the non-mutual shot if it can get it but against a slippery foe it cares much more about its arc than the enemy arc.
• The Arc Dodger is much more capable of avoiding enemy arcs while keeping its own shot but pays for it in statline. Therefore, the primary concern of the arc-dodger is to avoid arcs: it'll lose if it trades with a jouster so it'll choose no shots over shared shots, only attacking when it can't escape or won't be attacked in return. It cares more about the enemy arc than its own arc.

For equivalent points non support ships the scale looks something like this.

If it doesn't have some other tricks such as support abilities a ship of the same point cost with a worse statline should have a better ability to arc-dodge and thus take non-mutual shots. In the case of comparable statlines both sides want to arc-dodge each other to get the upper hand. Unless you feel like putting your faith in the dice, that is.

Therefore in any given matchup the bluer ship prioritises shooting and wants to keep the enemy in arc, and the redder ship priorities not getting shot. The bluer ship will accept traded shots and the redder ship will not.

While traditional thinking has made the turret the third pillar to make a rock-paper-scissors loop I'm starting to think the turret doesn't deserve its own position as all: they can all be placed on the Jouster-Arc Dodger spectrum. The TLT Y-wing is a Jouster as the Y-wing flies like an anvil with rockets strapped to it. The Outrider is an arc dodger: it's very good at getting a shot without being shot at itself but doesn't stand a chance agains The Millenium Falcon is roughly central: it wants to joust traditional arc dodgers (preferably with its front arc to avoid Autothrusters) and arc-dodge traditional jousters with its good dial and Engine Upgrade. This is also why the pre-Wave 6 Falcon kept interceptors out of the metagame: interceptors are redder than the Falcon but can't arc dodge it. Autothrusters gives them a comparable if not better statline strength while out of arc, revitalising the maneuvering game.

Anyway, back to our scale.

To see if a matchup is fair, assign each ship to the scale based on the same attribute. If it's a fair matchup, the other attribute should line up too.

Let's take B-wings versus PTL TIE interceptors (let's say Royals). A kitted out non-Fel TIE interceptor has a very weak statline strength putting it in the red. The B-wings has a very strong statline for its cost, putting it in the blue. This lines up with the TIE interceptor's excellent arc-dodging ability and the B-wing's less than stellar dial.

Take the T-65 X-wing versus Fel. The X-wing's statline is okay with Integrated Astromech but no TIE/x7. Let's call it blue-purple. Soontir Fel's statline plus other effects enhancing it is very slightly red purple: Autothrusters, Palpatine, Stealth Device and PTL token stacking make him suprisingly resilient.

The gap in projected maneuverability between the X-wing and the PTL Soontir is therefore projected to be medium at most, but the TIE interceptor is vastly better.

The X-wing's problem isn't that its maneuverability doesn't hold up or that its statline doesn't hold up, it's that together they don't hold up.

Better. With turrets and munitions getting a lot of love lately and the emphasis on PS and post move repositioning we're in an era where there might just be too many "sides". Many ships do many things and ships that do less things win less often. Ships that do a lot win more often but tend to lose big or win big.

That tends to be the thing about turn based games is jack of all trade units tend to not do so well as they will get beaten by any other unit as long as that other unit engages them in a favorable manner (which all skilled players will ensure). It doesn't take a grandmaster to send close range units up close and keep long range units at a distance from these jacks. It is table top 101.

Now take an RTS video game the exact opposite comes true with jack-of-all-trade being much more flexible and the skill required is not necessarily from the strategic planning but the tactical actions and reactions of the player. Using the sniper/shotgun approach in an RTS requires a lot more coordination and APM (actions per minute) than an assault rifle approach.

Talking about Jousting, there is (and always has) been a thing called Ion...

Surprised no one has mentioned the Wings of Glory method, set three dials per ship and activate them one after an another.

If you think you are a good pilot, trying planning three moves (+ actions) ahead!

As for jousting. jousting is putting in a solid show recently via the three U boats. All they do is move towards and focus. However, its when they fire four dice with a near perfect three hits and crit every time that things get hairy. The X wing won't be able to do that unless they make a PS4 - 6 Rogue Squadron pilot that has an EPT. Even then, they don't have the nine hit points that the JM5K is bringing to the table, nor do they have a 360 turret to finish you off.

Lets face it, the game has changed, Generic X wing and B wings are suffering right now.

If pure jousters had a higher Pilot skill for the activation phase than arc-dodgers, then estimating their maneauvers would have an importance again.

E.g. a X-Wing would have at least a chance of catching an arc dodging ace in its fireing arc when jousting.

Of course we would have to be careful about jousters that can also reposition themselves.

You would just be flip flopping the problem. Instead of named pilots boosting at a higher PS and ignoring the dial portion of the game, now you'd have a bunch of generics doing it.

It would still be a little less annoying I suppose, having a PS 4 T-70 or PS 1 Alpha Squadron Pilot activate at like 14 or 11 PS instead of aces doing essentially the same thing but with game breaking abilities.

So no. I propose simply making bank boosts red. That calms down arc dodging a ton, and ships that already have boost innately would get a discount on Engine Upgrade that would turn bank boost white.

I think your suggestion would be interesting to implement on say, the E-Wing generics. If Knave and Blackmoon Squadron had some super inflated PS like PS 7 and 9 respectively with EPT's they might actually see use occasionally.

Ships without repositioning do have to decide where to go before making the actual move. So it wouldnt flip the problem.

Of course you would have to look at which ships really need the high PS. It would be dangerous to give it to ships which have their own repositioning tools.

Surprised no one has mentioned the Wings of Glory method, set three dials per ship and activate them one after an another.

If you think you are a good pilot, trying planning three moves (+ actions) ahead!

As for jousting. jousting is putting in a solid show recently via the three U boats. All they do is move towards and focus. However, its when they fire four dice with a near perfect three hits and crit every time that things get hairy. The X wing won't be able to do that unless they make a PS4 - 6 Rogue Squadron pilot that has an EPT. Even then, they don't have the nine hit points that the JM5K is bringing to the table, nor do they have a 360 turret to finish you off.

Lets face it, the game has changed, Generic X wing and B wings are suffering right now.

Alpha-Strikes are a type of Joust list where most ships suited to the takes shoot their ordnance and then are rather bad ships for what comes afterwards (e.g. Z95s). Guidance Chips were suppossed to make the ordnance worth it for such scenarios. If you buy a torpedo it should be worth it, which is cool.

However Wave 8 also brought two ships who can build for alpha strikes and still be good at the aftermath (U-Boat because of their turrets and TAP because of their great action economy and maneauver wheel for a cheap price point). So in both cases we arent really talking pure jousting ships.

These distinctions are entirely meaningless.

Fat Turrets with engine upgrade are the best arc dodgers. Their ability to always have a shot affords them the ability to fly in a purely defensive manner while maintaining offense. And that's not even taking into account their broken dials. Soontir Fep can run all he wants but in order to maximize defense he might not have a shot.

Arc dodger is an entirely meaningless term too. A Royal Guard with PtL slapped on it is an arc dodger. A ship that can convert a blank blank focus result to 4 evades doesn't even need to dodge arcs.

Jouster is just a code word for "everything that's not a turret or an Acewing". It's the way the game used to be played pre-wave 4. Calvary in 1914. Not to mention "jousters" are now less efficient than supposed arc dodgers like Fel or Poe! Ordnance based squads and arguably Brobots fit into this category though, as do swarms. This is really the only category that has any real meaning.

Somehow you ahve to describe what you mean without repeating every detail. So yeah i agree that some terms arent always completely fitting however as long as ppl get what its all about it makes sense to use those terms. Asmuming ppl also use their brain while reading its not a problem at all to say jouster or arc dodger and ppl will probably get what you mean depending on the content.

As for jousting. jousting is putting in a solid show recently via the three U boats. All they do is move towards and focus.

nein

JM5ks are extraordinarily amazing blockers and have sexy segnors to offset the predictability "normal" jousters suffer from

if you have manaroo, you can basically do whatever you feel like (obstacle, 4k or right seggys, roll; self bump w.e) and still get torpedoes off

the reliability of their torps, as mentioned, is also very important. After catching someone in arc, the last thing you want is the dice giving you the middle finger for your efforts

These distinctions are entirely meaningless.

Fat Turrets with engine upgrade are the best arc dodgers. Their ability to always have a shot affords them the ability to fly in a purely defensive manner while maintaining offense. And that's not even taking into account their broken dials. Soontir Fep can run all he wants but in order to maximize defense he might not have a shot.

Arc dodger is an entirely meaningless term too. A Royal Guard with PtL slapped on it is an arc dodger. A ship that can convert a blank blank focus result to 4 evades doesn't even need to dodge arcs.

Jouster is just a code word for "everything that's not a turret or an Acewing". It's the way the game used to be played pre-wave 4. Calvary in 1914. Not to mention "jousters" are now less efficient than supposed arc dodgers like Fel or Poe! Ordnance based squads and arguably Brobots fit into this category though, as do swarms. This is really the only category that has any real meaning.

... Just yesterday you were ranting in another thread about how Fel was the most broken ship in the game and now it's fat turrets? Which by the way haven't been a dominanating force for months and basically vanished from the meta with rise of U Boats. ....is this all you do? Go bouncing from thread to thread whining about whatever ship you lost to last?

Somehow you ahve to describe what you mean without repeating every detail. So yeah i agree that some terms arent always completely fitting however as long as ppl get what its all about it makes sense to use those terms. Asmuming ppl also use their brain while reading its not a problem at all to say jouster or arc dodger and ppl will probably get what you mean depending on the content.

The problem is that people use these terms to describe ships that don't actually fit these definitions, or that do the job of one of the other 2 supposed pillars even better than ships traditionally considered as the best of that pillar.

Soontir is a better Jouster than a Blue Squadron Pilot.

Super Dash or a Deci/Falcon with Engine Upgrade is a better arc dodger than Soontir.

These terms are utterly meaningless.

You're one of those players that calls a 4 or 5 ship list a swarm, aren't you?

These distinctions are entirely meaningless.

Fat Turrets with engine upgrade are the best arc dodgers. Their ability to always have a shot affords them the ability to fly in a purely defensive manner while maintaining offense. And that's not even taking into account their broken dials. Soontir Fep can run all he wants but in order to maximize defense he might not have a shot.

Arc dodger is an entirely meaningless term too. A Royal Guard with PtL slapped on it is an arc dodger. A ship that can convert a blank blank focus result to 4 evades doesn't even need to dodge arcs.

Jouster is just a code word for "everything that's not a turret or an Acewing". It's the way the game used to be played pre-wave 4. Calvary in 1914. Not to mention "jousters" are now less efficient than supposed arc dodgers like Fel or Poe! Ordnance based squads and arguably Brobots fit into this category though, as do swarms. This is really the only category that has any real meaning.

... Just yesterday you were ranting in another thread about how Fel was the most broken ship in the game and now it's fat turrets? Which by the way haven't been a dominanating force for months and basically vanished from the meta with rise of U Boats. ....is this all you do? Go bouncing from thread to thread whining about whatever ship you lost to last?

I've lost to multiple things that aren't fat turrets or Palp Aces recently and I'm fine with those. Ghosts, an Inquistor Redline double Crack Squadron list for example. Lost to a Dengar Moralo Eval squad with 5x Sienar Test Pilot, 5x V1, 5x Chips, 5x Prockets in a close game.

Barely squeaked out a win against a new player with a C-3PO Engine Upgrade Title Outer Rim Smuggler, Fat Keyan, and Jake list. Lol, fat falcon technically.

So no, I do not complain about things solely because I lose to them.

Somehow you ahve to describe what you mean without repeating every detail. So yeah i agree that some terms arent always completely fitting however as long as ppl get what its all about it makes sense to use those terms. Asmuming ppl also use their brain while reading its not a problem at all to say jouster or arc dodger and ppl will probably get what you mean depending on the content.

The problem is that people use these terms to describe ships that don't actually fit these definitions, or that do the job of one of the other 2 supposed pillars even better than ships traditionally considered as the best of that pillar.

Soontir is a better Jouster than a Blue Squadron Pilot.

Super Dash or a Deci/Falcon with Engine Upgrade is a better arc dodger than Soontir.

These terms are utterly meaningless.

You're one of those players that calls a 4 or 5 ship list a swarm, aren't you?

The real question is did you understand what i meant with my post regardless of if i used a term you dont like to read? Where is the sense in describing me as "such a player" who calls something...

Sontir is suppossed to be an arc dodger from how the ships class is designed. That he is a better jouster for just a few more points (especially if he also has access to palpatine) is one of the problems that make other ships obsolet because they just dont bring all that onto the table.

Somehow you ahve to describe what you mean without repeating every detail. So yeah i agree that some terms arent always completely fitting however as long as ppl get what its all about it makes sense to use those terms. Asmuming ppl also use their brain while reading its not a problem at all to say jouster or arc dodger and ppl will probably get what you mean depending on the content.

I'm ready for new terms then because jousting does't happen in modern Xwing.

If you need a war based example: We stopped calling bombs "artillery" when we went nuclear. Xwing went nuclear wave 4-5 and now we're post wave 8.

Somehow you ahve to describe what you mean without repeating every detail. So yeah i agree that some terms arent always completely fitting however as long as ppl get what its all about it makes sense to use those terms. Asmuming ppl also use their brain while reading its not a problem at all to say jouster or arc dodger and ppl will probably get what you mean depending on the content.

I'm ready for new terms then because jousting does't happen in modern Xwing.

If you need a war based example: We stopped calling bombs "artillery" when we went nuclear. Xwing went nuclear wave 4-5 and now we're post wave 8.

"Joust" is still the most concise shorthand for "willing to trade shots", though this new definition removes turrets as a third pillar.

Still, each ship"s jousting value could be called it's "efficency", contrasted with arcdodging "utility".

So an Xwing has 80-something percent efficency, but very little utility. A PTL Saber Squadron interceper has a lower efficency, but a much higher utility, being able to get shots and avoid being shot in return.

How to grade utility? well, turrets would automatically get a bonus there, as they ALWAYS get a shot, if they're in range. Barrel roll gives a little utility, boost gives much more, and good stress removal+EPT slot is another bonus.

So for instance, a Sabine attack shuttle, with PTL, Kanan crew, and TLT would have very high utility, because she can get triple actions on most of her dial.