If pure jousters had a higher Pilot skill for the activation phase than arc-dodgers, then estimating their maneauvers would have an importance again.

E.g. a X-Wing would have at least a chance of catching an arc dodging ace in its fireing arc when jousting.

Of course we would have to be careful about jousters that can also reposition themselves.

Let me guess ... you lost 3 games in a row against Soontir or Dash last weekend?

ner

better to just remove PS entirely for alternating activations

Making a ship fight fire with fire would be boring for me. Generics are cheap and coming in numbers. I'd love to see synergy between generics, not the Ace's top trick graphed on it.

The only way to make a genuinely strong jouster that is guaranteed to see competitive play is if you made a small ship with a minimum of 8 health (hull + shields) that has two WHITE K-turns (one close range and one long range), has a base 3 primary attack, and no less than base 2 agility.

Don't give the ship native boost, barrel roll, or evade.

DO give the ship native target lock, focus, and SLAM.

Make sure both named pilots and at least one generic have the EPT slot. Don't make them too expensive.

The recipe above is how you bring jousting back to X-wing for competitve play.

Never understood the fascination with jousting. If you can predict the other player correctly any ship is fine, even with post maneuvering. What I find horribly boring and what seems to be most people's take on this game, is setting up straight across from each other and just flying straight into each other. That seems the biggest issue, it isn't the ships, but rather most players mentality on what good flying is. I watched a stream the other day where a ace TIE advance list flew straight into a TIE swarm, the commentators applauding the player of the advances for his great flying... I'm at a lose for word.

Wow so many assumptions about me or how i play instead of answering to the actual idea.

If you dont think its needed just post in other threads?

Making a ship fight fire with fire would be boring for me. Generics are cheap and coming in numbers. I'd love to see synergy between generics, not the Ace's top trick graphed on it.

I don't think its the same trick, its just flying what you set up before after the one who can reposition himself so he still has some kind of risk to take. There is a difference

The only way to make a genuinely strong jouster that is guaranteed to see competitive play is if you made a small ship with a minimum of 8 health (hull + shields) that has two WHITE K-turns (one close range and one long range), has a base 3 primary attack, and no less than base 2 agility.

Don't give the ship native boost, barrel roll, or evade.

DO give the ship native target lock, focus, and SLAM.

Make sure both named pilots and at least one generic have the EPT slot. Don't make them too expensive.

The recipe above is how you bring jousting back to X-wing for competitve play.

Might be a way, there always is more than one way though.

Never understood the fascination with jousting. If you can predict the other player correctly any ship is fine, even with post maneuvering. What I find horribly boring and what seems to be most people's take on this game, is setting up straight across from each other and just flying straight into each other. That seems the biggest issue, it isn't the ships, but rather most players mentality on what good flying is. I watched a stream the other day where a ace TIE advance list flew straight into a TIE swarm, the commentators applauding the player of the advances for his great flying... I'm at a lose for word.

Jousting doesnt mean everyone has to set up straigh in front of each other. It can happen if two jousting lists meet.

It merely means a type of ship/play where you arent using turrets to get your shots and cannot reposition to improve your arc. So you more or less ahve to use what you have with those ships. At the start of the game it is the easiest time of predicting in what area the enemy will be (both player will somehow appraoch each other). So yes it is easier catching the enemy in a front arc when both sides appraoch each other. When he is already very close or behind you its getting a lot harder to get him into your front arc without any repositioning. Thats basically why jousters like to joust.

If you are turning away from the enemy with a jousting list is that good flying in your sense of the term? You would need another ace in your sleeve to do that.

It merely means a type of ship/play where you arent using turrets to get your shots and cannot reposition to improve your arc. So you more or less ahve to use what you have with those ships. At the start of the game it is the easiest time of predicting in what area the enemy will be (both player will somehow appraoch each other). So yes it is easier catching the enemy in a front arc when both sides appraoch each other. When he is already very close or behind you its getting a lot harder to get him into your front arc without any repositioning. Thats basically why jousters like to joust.

If you are turning away from the enemy with a jousting list is that good flying in your sense of the term? You would need another ace in your sleeve to do that.

Which ships do that with any success? None. Jousting is not a thing in this game any more. You need to do more and have needed to do more for some time.

It merely means a type of ship/play where you arent using turrets to get your shots and cannot reposition to improve your arc. So you more or less ahve to use what you have with those ships. At the start of the game it is the easiest time of predicting in what area the enemy will be (both player will somehow appraoch each other). So yes it is easier catching the enemy in a front arc when both sides appraoch each other. When he is already very close or behind you its getting a lot harder to get him into your front arc without any repositioning. Thats basically why jousters like to joust.

If you are turning away from the enemy with a jousting list is that good flying in your sense of the term? You would need another ace in your sleeve to do that.

Which ships do that with any success? None. Jousting is not a thing in this game any more. You need to do more and have needed to do more for some time.

Of course and thats the reason many pure jousting ships don't work well enough when we are talking about a tournament scenario. Because after that initial approach (that doesnt ahve to be straigh at each other btw) pure jousting ships are ad a disadvantage in the comming rounds which they would ahve to make up for somehow.

It merely means a type of ship/play where you arent using turrets to get your shots and cannot reposition to improve your arc. So you more or less ahve to use what you have with those ships. At the start of the game it is the easiest time of predicting in what area the enemy will be (both player will somehow appraoch each other). So yes it is easier catching the enemy in a front arc when both sides appraoch each other. When he is already very close or behind you its getting a lot harder to get him into your front arc without any repositioning. Thats basically why jousters like to joust.

If you are turning away from the enemy with a jousting list is that good flying in your sense of the term? You would need another ace in your sleeve to do that.

Which ships do that with any success? None. Jousting is not a thing in this game any more. You need to do more and have needed to do more for some time.

x7 defenders.

It merely means a type of ship/play where you arent using turrets to get your shots and cannot reposition to improve your arc. So you more or less ahve to use what you have with those ships. At the start of the game it is the easiest time of predicting in what area the enemy will be (both player will somehow appraoch each other). So yes it is easier catching the enemy in a front arc when both sides appraoch each other. When he is already very close or behind you its getting a lot harder to get him into your front arc without any repositioning. Thats basically why jousters like to joust.

If you are turning away from the enemy with a jousting list is that good flying in your sense of the term? You would need another ace in your sleeve to do that.

Which ships do that with any success? None. Jousting is not a thing in this game any more. You need to do more and have needed to do more for some time.

x7 defenders.

They are the newest not yet available toys that get this because of exactly what we are talking about. I mean defenders have been sitting around as too expensive (for what they can achieve) jousters for a long time now. What do they get? Cheaper and a free defensive action.

However at some point itll get pretty rediculous how many free actions you will get if the balancing spiral keeps turning and this stays their "only" solution. So i tried to think different with my initial suggestion. Also i just asked that question. I didnt say its "the one" or the only solution. I merely wondered what it would mean for the game. Apperently a lot ppl arent willing to even think about it only because i wrote "fixing" in the topic.

defenders don't really joust either, as per the traditional definition of jousting

defenders can roll after white 4ks, which they can also chain back to back, and the Tie/D variants can pack some exquisite control

they're much more than mere jousters like the X-wing or non-feedback Z

in related news, can we FAQ a double EPT slot into the VCX so I can adaptability+VI?

Also consider hera-crew VCXs as jousters as well- while they may pack an autoblaster for close in defence, the ability to throw 4 die attacks at range 3 and 5K repeately, ups the bar for high value jousters, for only about 50% more than a Bwing.

The fix for Xwings should be in using their torpedo slot effetively, despite the conflict in "mandatory" modification slots. Xwings having torpedos is a plot point in multiple movies- it should be a viable option in game. A free torp with automatic rerolls could do it.

Other jousters should have individual fixes.

ner

better to just remove PS entirely for alternating activations

This is a ungodly bad idea. Why do people keep suggesting it? You basically just ensure that no one will ever run anything but TIE swarms because why bother when an Academy Pilot can move after Fel?

If pure jousters had a higher Pilot skill for the activation phase than arc-dodgers, then estimating their maneauvers would have an importance again.

E.g. a X-Wing would have at least a chance of catching an arc dodging ace in its fireing arc when jousting.

Of course we would have to be careful about jousters that can also reposition themselves.

I think this is a good idea, we talked about it a bit in my Rebel Veterans thread with a Veteran of Yavin title usable for Xs and Ys that gave EPTs to ships that have none and boosted the pilot skill if those that did. I think it's a very thematic way to breath new life in to older ships.

It merely means a type of ship/play where you arent using turrets to get your shots and cannot reposition to improve your arc. So you more or less ahve to use what you have with those ships. At the start of the game it is the easiest time of predicting in what area the enemy will be (both player will somehow appraoch each other). So yes it is easier catching the enemy in a front arc when both sides appraoch each other. When he is already very close or behind you its getting a lot harder to get him into your front arc without any repositioning. Thats basically why jousters like to joust.

If you are turning away from the enemy with a jousting list is that good flying in your sense of the term? You would need another ace in your sleeve to do that.

Which ships do that with any success? None. Jousting is not a thing in this game any more. You need to do more and have needed to do more for some time.

x7 defenders.

Defenders already get action economy in that when they "just joust" they perform actions after kturns. Now they get an evade AND another action of their choice AND a point reduction that puts them on par with Tie Fighters. Combine with EPTs and/or powerful abilities and you see a ship that should never just joust.

A defender that just jousts is just dead.

Defenders are, perhaps, the best example of a ship that was designed to "just joust" outside of Wave 1-2 and were pretty unspectacular because of it.

ner

better to just remove PS entirely for alternating activations

This is a ungodly bad idea. Why do people keep suggesting it? You basically just ensure that no one will ever run anything but TIE swarms because why bother when an Academy Pilot can move after Fel?

probably because Fel's a more efficient use of points than an academy pilot and yet still has far more movement options AND still moves after they do

he's literally better in every way apart from their ability to block

ner

better to just remove PS entirely for alternating activations

This is a ungodly bad idea. Why do people keep suggesting it? You basically just ensure that no one will ever run anything but TIE swarms because why bother when an Academy Pilot can move after Fel?

probably because Fel's a more efficient use of points than an academy pilot and yet still has far more movement options AND still moves after they do

he's literally better in every way apart from their ability to block

Because he costs more then three of them combined when kitted out. Pilot skill is an important game mechanic that the whole game is built around... It's like saying that you want the Queen in chess to only be able to move one space because you are tired of her killing your pawns. Except worse because you have to choose between three of them and one of him so removing that kills all diversity.

when I say Fel's a more efficient use of points than an academy pilot, I do mean 3 of them

the points you spend on Fel are going to almost always return a better result than 3 academies, outside very corner case scenarios like auto-damage nuking him from existence

also, the chess analogy is horrible because it already has alternating activations. You're not removing soontir's awesome super maneuvers or his action-efficiency, you're just making him guess sometimes while giving him some advantages (can't get blocked if he moves first, provided you don't **** up)

the queen in the chess analogy would be akin to removing PS then taking Soontir and putting him in a 3 hull x-wing, which is not part of the plan at all

when I say Fel's a more efficient use of points than an academy pilot, I do mean 3 of them

the points you spend on Fel are going to almost always return a better result than 3 academies, outside very corner case scenarios like auto-damage nuking him from existence

also, the chess analogy is horrible because it already has alternating activations. You're not removing soontir's awesome super maneuvers or his action-efficiency, you're just making him guess sometimes while giving him some advantages (can't get blocked if he moves first, provided you don't **** up)

the queen in the chess analogy would be akin to removing PS then taking Soontir and putting him in a 3 hull x-wing, which is not part of the plan at all

Alternating activations inherently skews things in favor of the person who brought more ships meaning that a person running a TIE swarm has the opertunity to both block Fel and then move after him with several TIES. It completely kills any elite lists effectiveness, removes any reason to take anything but the lowest PS generics, breaks a core thematic concept of the game and is just plain dumb.

I play Armada and the only reason it works there is because you shoot and move in the same activation and because the points to power scaling is so extreme that a top tier ship can blow through an entire fleet of lesser ships in a handful of turns to off set the movement advantages of a swarm.

While traditional thinking has made the turret the third pillar to make a rock-paper-scissors loop I'm starting to think the turret doesn't deserve its own position as all: they can all be placed on the Jouster-Arc Dodger spectrum. The TLT Y-wing is a Jouster as the Y-wing flies like an anvil with rockets strapped to it. The Outrider is an arc dodger: it's very good at getting a shot without being shot at itself but doesn't stand a chance agains The Millenium Falcon is roughly central: it wants to joust traditional arc dodgers (preferably with its front arc to avoid Autothrusters) and arc-dodge traditional jousters with its good dial and Engine Upgrade. This is also why the pre-Wave 6 Falcon kept interceptors out of the metagame: interceptors are redder than the Falcon but can't arc dodge it. Autothrusters gives them a comparable if not better statline strength while out of arc, revitalising the maneuvering game.

Anyway, back to our scale.

To see if a matchup is fair, assign each ship to the scale based on the same attribute. If it's a fair matchup, the other attribute should line up too.

Let's take B-wings versus PTL TIE interceptors (let's say Royals). A kitted out non-Fel TIE interceptor has a very weak statline strength putting it in the red. The B-wings has a very strong statline for its cost, putting it in the blue. This lines up with the TIE interceptor's excellent arc-dodging ability and the B-wing's less than stellar dial.

Take the T-65 X-wing versus Fel. The X-wing's statline is okay with Integrated Astromech but no TIE/x7. Let's call it blue-purple. Soontir Fel's statline plus other effects enhancing it is very slightly red purple: Autothrusters, Palpatine, Stealth Device and PTL token stacking make him suprisingly resilient.

The gap in projected maneuverability between the X-wing and the PTL Soontir is therefore projected to be medium at most, but the TIE interceptor is vastly better.

The X-wing's problem isn't that its maneuverability doesn't hold up or that its statline doesn't hold up, it's that together they don't hold up.

the best "axe to the face" fix for arcdodgers is PS10. because 1 action isn't enough for dodging.

and 2 means 1 action aside from VI vader, who happens to ride a chum bucket instead of a real ship so he's fine

defenders don't really joust either, as per the traditional definition of jousting

If by the traditional definition of jousting you mean charge blindly at the enemy and roll dice then I don't think any successful ship does any more except maybe a badly played TIE swarm. As youi've said before, the game has evolved beyond that.

Nowadays I see Jouster and Arc Dodger as the extreme ends of a continuum on which all non-support ships fit somewhere.

The key distinction between an arc dodger (interceptor) and a jouster (heavy fighter) is this:

• A Jouster has a superior statline to an equivalent turret and arc dodger. Trading shots is in its interest. Therefore a jouster doesn't care about being caught in arc itself: its maneuvering focus is to ensure it gets shots, and it won't risk losing its own shot to avoid the enemy arc. It'll take the non-mutual shot if it can get it but against a slippery foe it cares much more about its arc than the enemy arc.
• The Arc Dodger is much more capable of avoiding enemy arcs while keeping its own shot but pays for it in statline. Therefore, the primary concern of the arc-dodger is to avoid arcs: it'll lose if it trades with a jouster so it'll choose no shots over shared shots, only attacking when it can't escape or won't be attacked in return. It cares more about the enemy arc than its own arc.

For equivalent points non support ships the scale looks something like this.

If it doesn't have some other tricks such as support abilities a ship of the same point cost with a worse statline should have a better ability to arc-dodge and thus take non-mutual shots. In the case of comparable statlines both sides want to arc-dodge each other to get the upper hand. Unless you feel like putting your faith in the dice, that is.

Therefore in any given matchup the bluer ship prioritises shooting and wants to keep the enemy in arc, and the redder ship priorities not getting shot. The bluer ship will accept traded shots and the redder ship will not.

While traditional thinking has made the turret the third pillar to make a rock-paper-scissors loop I'm starting to think the turret doesn't deserve its own position as all: they can all be placed on the Jouster-Arc Dodger spectrum. The TLT Y-wing is a Jouster as the Y-wing flies like an anvil with rockets strapped to it. The Outrider is an arc dodger: it's very good at getting a shot without being shot at itself but doesn't stand a chance agains The Millenium Falcon is roughly central: it wants to joust traditional arc dodgers (preferably with its front arc to avoid Autothrusters) and arc-dodge traditional jousters with its good dial and Engine Upgrade. This is also why the pre-Wave 6 Falcon kept interceptors out of the metagame: interceptors are redder than the Falcon but can't arc dodge it. Autothrusters gives them a comparable if not better statline strength while out of arc, revitalising the maneuvering game.

Anyway, back to our scale.

To see if a matchup is fair, assign each ship to the scale based on the same attribute. If it's a fair matchup, the other attribute should line up too.

Let's take B-wings versus PTL TIE interceptors (let's say Royals). A kitted out non-Fel TIE interceptor has a very weak statline strength putting it in the red. The B-wings has a very strong statline for its cost, putting it in the blue. This lines up with the TIE interceptor's excellent arc-dodging ability and the B-wing's less than stellar dial.

Take the T-65 X-wing versus Fel. The X-wing's statline is okay with Integrated Astromech but no TIE/x7. Let's call it blue-purple. Soontir Fel's statline plus other effects enhancing it is very slightly red purple: Autothrusters, Palpatine, Stealth Device and PTL token stacking make him suprisingly resilient.

The gap in projected maneuverability between the X-wing and the PTL Soontir is therefore projected to be medium at most, but the TIE interceptor is vastly better.

The X-wing's problem isn't that its maneuverability doesn't hold up or that its statline doesn't hold up, it's that together they don't hold up.

Better. With turrets and munitions getting a lot of love lately and the emphasis on PS and post move repositioning we're in an era where there might just be too many "sides". Many ships do many things and ships that do less things win less often. Ships that do a lot win more often but tend to lose big or win big.

"The fix for Xwings should be in using their torpedo slot effetively, despite the conflict in "mandatory" modification slots. Xwings having torpedos is a plot point in multiple movies- it should be a viable option in game. A free torp with automatic rerolls could do it."

.

This.