For those, like me, who are sissies and would like to play Black Crusade and still be the good guys (or at least less evil guys), I've decided to make this. It is based off of 1d4Chan's BrightHammer 40K, tweaked a bit, and unleashed upon the world! There are two ways the following fluff can be used: Either you go the traditional BrightHammer 40K route and make the Lords of Order allies of the Imperium, or you can do a Star Trek mirrorverse thing and make the Imperium evil(er). In any case I'd like to say right off the bat that this sort of thing will change the game play a fair bit; certain talents might need to be altered, certain rules changed a bit. This isn't just a re-fluffing it also changes the mechanics up. I'm doing this as much as a thought experiment as I am making a game mod so I'd appreciate any help or (CONSTRUCTIVE) criticism. In any case, I'll be listing the general differences, then each God. Please feel free to use pieces of this guide or use it wholesale.

In General:

Things are a lot more cordial between the 4 Gods; although they have their disagreements, occasionally violently, they are in general on the same team and are much less at each others throats than their Chaos counterparts.

Human sacrifice, "rap with an e" (censored for some stupid reason), indiscriminate slaughter are right out (the first one is the source of a fair bit of mechanics altering)

Certain mutations might need to be altered

Nurgle in particular is very different (more on that in his entry)

Things are less risky (Daemon weapons are a bit more willing to serve provided their loyalty is earned, for example) the GM might wish to lower the rewards so to speak to compensate.

Going Chaos Spawn is a punishment that is earned, rather than simply failing to "get gud"

The screaming Vortex is less of a hellhole to live in (Q'sal is based on warp power rather than souls, Furia is less "Water World" and more Fenris (harsh, but the people are born survivors and strong) etc.)

Khorne:

Lord of war, battle, rage, bloodshed, conflict, honor, duty, and protection, Khorne's followers are among the greatest warriors in the Galaxy, and value strength above all else. Some would see this as an excuse to slaughter and pillage, and this enrages Khorne, for there is more than mere strength of arms. To Khorne, what matters most is strength of character. Honor, courage, discipline are the highest or virtues. Weakness of arm can be overlooked. Cowardice, treachery or abuse of ones strength cannot. So as much as he and his followers may belittle the weak and helpless, they find themselves firmly planted in their defense. Khorne best helps those who help themselves: standing and fighting despite certain death may earn you a burst of strength. Running away will earn you scorn. Selling out your brothers for your own survival or killing the helpless will earn you a smiting. What matters most is that conflict is done, bloodshed and death are secondary. Not all of Khorne's followers are warriors. Some are athletes, and those who forge arms and armor often give him praise.

Slaanesh:

Lord of perfection, sensation, love, art, and "having a good time", Slaanesh can be a fickle God, but also an enjoyable one. Patron of artists, poets, perfectionists, lovers, gourmets, and those who seek to enjoy all life has to over, his/her followers can seem.... strange to those unfamiliar with them; They enjoy taking things to new levels, broadening their horizons and trying ever newer and wilder delights, although keeping things consensual is a hard and fast rule to be sure. Surprisingly, Slaanesh is often disliked by nobility and rulers for one simple reason: the most common of tenants of Slaanesh is "the more the merrier". To Slaanesh, pleasure, perfection and enjoyment are the rights of everyone, and denying others these things (or having pleasure at the expense of another's suffering) as nobility are wont to do is anathema to Slaanesh. In this way it is surprisingly common for his/her followers to take part in or even start revolts and uprisings if they feel the local rulers are being too "exclusive" or "restrictive". Some may laugh at the thought of the followers of a pleasure God fighting, but they rarely do so more than once; perfection in all things is their goal, and that includes combat skills. Slaanesh includes a large number of duelists among his/her number, and they are often quite good at speaking for the masses and being leaders of men.

Tzeentch:

Lord of knowledge, plans, magic, schemes, freedom, hope and change, Tzeentch is often an inscrutable God, his followers mysterious and hidden. Tzeentch is venerated by magi, scholars, revolutionaries, philosophers and inventors. They seek to create new things, discover and create, seek out and discover knowledge and lore, and further the strength of the arcane. Master plotters, they are among the greatest strategists and schemers alive, and the most powerful of psykers. They delight in shaking up old traditions and in bringing change and hope to the oppressed; Tzeentch's nature as a God of change and hope makes him a natural revolutionary. Oddly enough for a God of plots and schemes, Tzeentch is not the God of fate. Indeed, he is opposed to the very idea; as a God of freedom and evolution, the idea of everything following a scripted part is anathema to him, and those who seek to bind others in chains find themselves wrapped in chains of their own, made of the endless plots of their downfall.

Nurgle:

Lord of Nature, stability, health, life, and also of death, disease, decay, and rebirth, Nurgle is the God of duality. On one hand he is the god of nature, of the forest, of growth and life, but he with every summer must come a winter, with every birth must come a death, and every beginning has an end. Of course, every end also has a new beginning. Nurgle is venerated by those who work with nature, who seek to build things that last and endure. Construction workers, farmers, average citizens and law makers often pay him homage. Nurgle teaches that life is precious and fleeting, but ultimately worth living, and to enjoy what time you have. Jovial and kind, he is a caring God, but when the time comes he and his daemons take on the aspects of decay, disease, death and entropy, becoming grim and dispassionate as they do what must be done. In the end they become far more energized than before, taking on the aspect of rebirth as new life springs from the old. Birth, life, decay, death, rebirth. The cycle of life and all in entails, including permanence, fortitude and endurance are his dealings. Those who seek to upset this balance, to defile nature, and to make life not worth living find themselves facing an enemy who can endure anything they throw at it while slowly wearing them down and bringing them to heal.

Daemons

Khorne's daemons often have less of a "wild" look about them, being more humanoid, more armored and dignified. Tzeentch's Lords of Change have the aspects of hawks, eagles or owls, and his lesser daemons are more intelligent. Nurgle's daemons appear based on plant life or healthy animals/beings, taking on aspects of rot and decay (as they are in regular 40K) or of the more abstract entropy as needed. Daemons of Slaanesh are largely unchanged, albeit a bit more clothed.

Relationships between the Gods

Khorne is often venerated alongside Nurgle by survivalists, seeking from the latter the strength to endure and from the former the strength to overpower. He and Slaanesh find common ground in the perfection of swordplay, and with Tzeentch in the art of strategy and moral philosophy. Nurgle is venerated alongside Slaanesh at feasts and the like, praising the latter for the extravagant preparation and the former for the crops to make it and the sustenance it provides. He and Tzeentch are seen as the pillars of civilization, the former providing the bedrock of it and permanence and the latter its evolution into greater forms, with Khorne proving the means of protection/expansion with Slaanesh providing what makes it worthwhile. Tzeentch and Nurgle also play off each other, Tzeentch preventing Nurgle from getting bogged down or decaying too soon, and Nurgle slowing Tzeentch down enough that he can enjoy what he has and think before moving on to change it.

All for now, will edit later. Please give thoughts, feed back and suggestion and praise, but take any trolling elsewhere.

I love this idea and concept of making a game with (mirrored) rules. So in a scenario of Chaos Heroes vs Villainous Imperial hounds how would the two groups act then?

I love this idea and concept of making a game with (mirrored) rules. So in a scenario of Chaos Heroes vs Villainous Imperial hounds how would the two groups act then?

It would be important to remember that the Imperium doesn't have the relative moral high ground in this case. The Emperor, and thus the Imperium, were/are after power purely for it's own sake. As such, thing's are a good deal worse than usual. Even the nice Space Marine chapters like the Salamanders or Blood Angels don't give a crap about civilians in this verse (the former likely being psychotic pyromaniacs and the latter essentially acting like the Flesh Tearers 24/7 without being sad about it). The relative freedom to adapt the Imperial Cult to various worlds inhabitants is much reduced; barring minor alterations, it's their way or death. In all likelyhood, most people in a position of power aren't nearly as pious as their "heroic" counterparts. Once you get above low level middle management, faith in the God Emperor becomes a lie used to keep the lessers in line. The Imperial Guard is essentially the stereotype; mass of conscripts herded into battle at bolt pistol point. Simply put, remove the more heroic tendancies of some factions, make the Emperor only in it for power rather than genuinely caring for people, and remove what little freedom and wiggle room it has.

As for Chaos, I have to go to work soon, so I'll post more about them later today, but one major difference is that as much as they can still be dicks about things (Tzeentch can rather machevelian when he wants, Khorne can turn away from people who need help if they don't at least TRY and defend themselves, etc.), they are much more humane, and do genuinely care about their followers.

EDIT: now then, about Chaos

Khorne's followers can be just as angry as their Chaos counterparts, although they have a lot more control over themselves. It is important to note that although not harming the weak, helpless and innocent is rule numero uno, this does not mean he or they are necessarily "nice". When a horde of barbarians move in to slaughter a town, he and a large portion of his followers might step in out of a desire to protect them. Another large chunk (and him on his less generous days) do so because the barbarians have violated his code of honor and they seek to punish them, with protecting them being a side benefit. Or, they could simply attack the barbarians out of a desire for a worthy fight, and them being fair game under Khorne's rules. Those that follow Khorne find themselves between the helpless and marauders frequently, although that doesn't mean they are the nicest to be around.

Slaanesh and those that follow him/her are dedicated to perfection and the pursuit of pleasure, whether that be carnal in nature, gastronomic, artistic or intellectual, and to ensure that such things are available to all. They are excellent at reading people and working with them, being leaders, seducers, and the like. Even so, they can be vain and fickle; Aphrodite may be the Goddess of love in Roman myth, but that doesn't mean she's the nicest of people. They can be into "weird" things as well, if you get my drift, and some have a cruel streak when dealing with their enemies; Dedicated to pleasure or not, they are ruthless against those they see as enemies, and are more than able to put their efforts towards the perfection of torture if need be.

Nurgle's "average" follower is the odd man out amongst the four. Whereas Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch count magi, warriors, artists and the like among their most common followers, Nurgle is the most popular among the average citizen. Farmers, laborers, mothers and fathers all pay him homage, praying to him for longevity in their works and lives, a bountiful harvest, and, ultimately, to watch over them when they die, for all things must. Conversely, his followers appear somewhat less on the battlefield, although only slightly. They often serve as medics, engineers, and the like, but when they fight they turn their inordinate resilience against their foes, and turn the power of disease, decay and entropy against their foes. Nurgle is far more restrained when it comes to dosing out such things than his Chaos counterpart, seeing such things as grim necessities. As such, they try to avoid infecting civilian populations. Even so, when a hive world calls out for salvation from death, Nurgle may be forced to unleash a pandemic, killing billions and colapsing structures so that new life may grow from the much. In the end, countless more will benefit from the renewed life that such cullings cause, but it is dirty buisiness.

Tzeentch encourages subtly, change, psy powers, and knowledge among his followers. They are adept at pulling strings, often leading from behind the scenes rather than up front like Khorne or Slaanesh. They see change, growth and evolution as needed for very survival, and often act as teachers, revolutionaries, philosophers, spreading knowledge and overthrowing stagnant rulers. A good way to view them would be through the lens of the Ubermensch, machiavelli, Tesla, that odd but smart teacher you had in high school, and various revolutionaries. They have much to teach to learn, but do not simply hand out knowledge (nor expect it to be). It must be earned, whether through trading for other knowledge, solving a riddle or test, or experimenting. Seeking arcane power, knowledge, and the freedom to change and choose ones on fate are the things his followers fight for, or just as often get others to fight for without knowing so.

So how do you handle the corrupting part of chaos?

So how do you handle the corrupting part of chaos?

Do you mean Corruption points or are you speaking metaphorically?

Both really, seeing as how collecting CPs to get mutations is a main mechanic in the game. But also metaphorically.

Both really, seeing as how collecting CPs to get mutations is a main mechanic in the game. But also metaphorically.

In both cases, they more represent you being "in-tune" with your God and his favor with you, and less becoming inhuman. From a mechanics standpoint, you still gain mutations (kind of the key appeal of the game here!), but you don't gain corruption as a failing; There are other ways to show displeasure, and they might even take some away from you (possibly removing a mutation!). From a fluff standpoint, the Lords of Order are far more "in balance" than their Chaos counterparts, less off the deep end. Their mortal followers act as much on them as they do on mortals, keeping their "morality" and identity from sliding too far into madness. As such, it's less "Corruption" and more gaining favor and understanding of the Gods.

It would be important to remember that the Imperium doesn't have the relative moral high ground in this case. The Emperor, and thus the Imperium, were/are after power purely for it's own sake. As such, thing's are a good deal worse than usual. Even the nice Space Marine chapters like the Salamanders or Blood Angels don't give a crap about civilians in this verse (the former likely being psychotic pyromaniacs and the latter essentially acting like the Flesh Tearers 24/7 without being sad about it). The relative freedom to adapt the Imperial Cult to various worlds inhabitants is much reduced; barring minor alterations, it's their way or death. In all likelyhood, most people in a position of power aren't nearly as pious as their "heroic" counterparts. Once you get above low level middle management, faith in the God Emperor becomes a lie used to keep the lessers in line. The Imperial Guard is essentially the stereotype; mass of conscripts herded into battle at bolt pistol point. Simply put, remove the more heroic tendancies of some factions, make the Emperor only in it for power rather than genuinely caring for people, and remove what little freedom and wiggle room it has.

It isn't even needed. The Imperium is already so corrupted and tyrannical that even if they have somewhere good will, your Chaos warbands can look like the rebels that fight an oppressive regime. No need to put the Imperium more evil than it already is.

It would be important to remember that the Imperium doesn't have the relative moral high ground in this case. The Emperor, and thus the Imperium, were/are after power purely for it's own sake. As such, thing's are a good deal worse than usual. Even the nice Space Marine chapters like the Salamanders or Blood Angels don't give a crap about civilians in this verse (the former likely being psychotic pyromaniacs and the latter essentially acting like the Flesh Tearers 24/7 without being sad about it). The relative freedom to adapt the Imperial Cult to various worlds inhabitants is much reduced; barring minor alterations, it's their way or death. In all likelyhood, most people in a position of power aren't nearly as pious as their "heroic" counterparts. Once you get above low level middle management, faith in the God Emperor becomes a lie used to keep the lessers in line. The Imperial Guard is essentially the stereotype; mass of conscripts herded into battle at bolt pistol point. Simply put, remove the more heroic tendancies of some factions, make the Emperor only in it for power rather than genuinely caring for people, and remove what little freedom and wiggle room it has.

It isn't even needed. The Imperium is already so corrupted and tyrannical that even if they have somewhere good will, your Chaos warbands can look like the rebels that fight an oppressive regime. No need to put the Imperium more evil than it already is.

Don't 100% agree, but you do have a point. This thread IS more about playing "good" Chaos followers, not "evil(er)" Imperial ones, after all

Back around 3rd/4th Edition of WH40k, the Chaos Space Marine codex described CSM as covering everything from psychotic mass-murdering sociopaths to anti-heroes wronged by the Imperium.

To me, this has always been Chaos and while reading Dark Crusade , I never saw a hugely compelling reason to change that interpretation.

I mean, there's no reason your Dark Crusade campaign has to be about Adolf Hitler, Iosef Stalin, and Pol Pot. I think it could just as readily be about Wolverine, Deadpool, and the Punisher.

Back around 3rd/4th Edition of WH40k, the Chaos Space Marine codex described CSM as covering everything from psychotic mass-murdering sociopaths to anti-heroes wronged by the Imperium.

To me, this has always been Chaos and while reading Dark Crusade , I never saw a hugely compelling reason to change that interpretation.

I mean, there's no reason your Dark Crusade campaign has to be about Adolf Hitler, Iosef Stalin, and Pol Pot. I think it could just as readily be about Wolverine, Deadpool, and the Punisher.

Well, there IS the whole human sacrifice, slaving, burning souls for EVERYTHING (looking at you, Q'sal), nearly anything Slaanesh or Nurgle does, etc.

Back around 3rd/4th Edition of WH40k, the Chaos Space Marine codex described CSM as covering everything from psychotic mass-murdering sociopaths to anti-heroes wronged by the Imperium.

To me, this has always been Chaos and while reading Dark Crusade , I never saw a hugely compelling reason to change that interpretation.

I mean, there's no reason your Dark Crusade campaign has to be about Adolf Hitler, Iosef Stalin, and Pol Pot. I think it could just as readily be about Wolverine, Deadpool, and the Punisher.

Well, there IS the whole human sacrifice, slaving, burning souls for EVERYTHING (looking at you, Q'sal), nearly anything Slaanesh or Nurgle does, etc.

Just because your anti-heroes have fallen in with Chaos (because they don't have many other options, frankly), doesn't mean that they're actively worshipping Chaos, either.

I seem to recall there being a book series about a Space Marine Chapter - Soul Drinkers, I think it was? - that quite accidentally fell into worshipping Tzeentch.

Hell, the Thousand Sons are still arguably anti-heroes wronged by the Imperium, as near as I can tell.

I'll have to re-read the book. But there are certainly ways you can convince a modern audience that human sacrifice and slavery can be OK - simply tie them into crime and punishment. They're not being sacrificed, they're being punished for their crimes against the galaxy. They're not being enslaved, they're being put in prison to serve out a sentence for the crimes they've committed. Burning souls? Killing them wasn't enough of a punishment - besides, they were dirty Chaos-worshippers.

Chaos certainly isn't wanting for all sorts of nasty people the PCs can "sacrifice", "enslave", &c. with a clean conscience.

Plus if you are playing anti-heroes your characters don't have to be into human sacrifice or devouring souls, especially if they don't actively worship Chaos.