Hi all,

I'm curious about whether I played Desperate Hour correctly. Because if I did, then...wow is this mission ever absurdly imbalanced under certain circumstances! Here's the sequence of events. It's a bit long, but it's also a bit of an after-action report as well, so if you like that sort of thing:

(Our first campaign run; we were house-ruling that only Core Set stuff was included. Also, spoilers. Of course. ; )

1) Heroes start in their spot. Spend their first round slaughtering my eStormtroopers and rGuards. It took them 3/4 activations, primarily because they rolled poorly in their attacks. I get a bit of damage in, but really it's minimal. Mission start is solidly going their way. They know the Mission Progresses when the door opens, and they go to open the door, then go "Wait! Usually bad things happen when we do! Let's not do that as our last activation!" (I'm so proud of my padawans, they have learned well! : )

2) I poker-face it, even though I was reeeeally hoping for an end-of-round Weiss activation, to get some revenge in. ; ) I don't deploy at the end of the round, figuring it would be foolish to with only at most 12 threat (I have Imperial Informants hidden). Also, I know Weiss is coming.

3) They open the door. Weiss makes his entrance. I give him Assault Armour. The player that blasted the door open gets one attack (I think?), and then he's done. Weiss takes his activation, which I use to move and attack Finn, then tap Show of Force and Sustain Fire to get a second, Focused attack, almost but not quite wounding him. Weiss is stunned, and done.

4) The players spend their last three activations defeating Weiss, which they know Progresses the Mission. Their decision base was actually reasonable--by the end of the round, their mission was 1/4 over, and it only progresses! However, we agreed afterwards, that this basically ruined the mission for them.

5) Weiss is gone. I get my eOfficer, eGuards, and rStormtroopers. I basically split them between the two spawn points. I made a nice dramatic moment where I took the AT-ST off the board (we were using it as Weiss rather than the token, because I don't own Weiss), then put it right back on. "I'm dead serious" I say, with an evil grin. They groan. I read the flavour text, and then dramatically pause when Weiss gets interrupted and their 'pilot' takes over. The looks on their faces is priceless, as I explain that it's theirs to play with and how it works.

6) Because this all happened at the end of the fourth hero's activation, we rule (correctly, I'm sure), that the AT-ST gets its one action. It attacks, and the dice they chose don't roll a blast, but still kills the eOfficer.

So far, so good. Tense mission, some nice swings in dramatic effect, everyone's engaged and having a blast. But then, things go to complete crap:

7) I now have eGuards and rTroopers. I activate the eGuards. Move one out from the corner where he was behind the cover of two rStormtroopers (at range 5 or 6 of Jyn, so she can't Trick Shot LoS), step up to Jyn, and attack her. Stun her. She can't attack back (with that xp ability of hers). She can't Quick Draw. When I realize this, I...realize I now have An Opportunity.

8) I focus fire on Jyn and Finn, and get them both to wounded using up all of my rStormtroopers and eGuard activations. Which...kind of sucks, for them. Because now it's the end of the round, and:

9) I have 24(!) threat--12 from the end of Round 2, 6 from High Value Target, and 6 from Imperial Informants. I bring out: eStormtroopers (costing 8, and giving them Combat Veterans and Assault Armour), eNexu, rStormtroopers (5 cost), and an eProbe Droid. In addition to the other rStormtroopers and eGuards I just got for free.

10) The players take one look at the board and realize (correctly, I think) they can't really win, even with the AT-ST helping them out; all I have to do is wound two more heroes. So, since they know how the Mission Progresses, they attempt one last Hail Mary action, and their forward guy full-out sprints to the tile that triggers the Progress Mission. Their hope is maaaaaaybe it'll be something actually helpful for them.

11) If you know the mission, then...well, we decided it wasn't worth playing through it, after that point.

So. Just to make sure: did any of that break the rules? In retrospect, I may have swung the hammer a bit *too* hard, with the 24 threat. But still, that was the only secret card played up to that point.

We discussed it after, and I realized that if I had it to do it over again, I would have warned them they...might not...want to kill Weiss with their last activation in a round. This was my first time playing an IA campaign as well though, so I didn't even realize all the implications until the moment was upon me, the pieces were in place, and I was figuring out what I should do with them.

These are pretty good players. I've been playing Skirmish, had about 16 to 20 games so far, and I've lost 2 or 3. I've played at least 10 tournament games (with the same trooper list, though the command card selection has evolved), and I have yet to be defeated in a tournament. I say this not to brag, but as a preface for: going in to the finale, the players were "plus one" on their wins (one of the missions we collectively called a draw, since they got six out of twelve tokens). I only played 'lightly' for one or two of the early games, then started playing my best when I saw I didn't need to hold back any more--and they still ended up winning more than they lost. I did make quite a few mistakes during these missions, some of them rather silly ones. But the challenge was there, for all of us. However, I kind of feel like my campaign win was just...handed to me. On a silver platter. But anyways.

They were on the clock (8 round limit), so their decisions really did made sense to me. And if they had waited until next round, then failed to kill Weiss with their first hero's activation, Weiss gets TWO MORE attacks yet again, one of them focused! As one player said: "We were making sound tactical decisions based on the information we had at the time. When the game (bleep)s you over *for making the right decision*, that's just bad game design."

We all had fun for the majority of the campaign, so many of us will be continuing on to the next one in a month or two, but as another player put it: "It's a shame that the campaign ended so anti-climatically."

Thoughts? Comments?

9) I have 24(!) threat--12 from the end of Round 2, 6 from High Value Target, and 6 from Imperial Informants. I bring out: eStormtroopers (costing 8, and giving them Combat Veterans and Assault Armour), eNexu, rStormtroopers (5 cost), and an eProbe Droid. In addition to the other rStormtroopers and eGuards I just got for free.

* The threat dial only goes to 20. You can not have more than 20 threat at any one time.

* Imperial Informants triggers after deployment for the status phase at the end of round 2. So you can't use these 6 threat to deploy figures until the status phase at the end of round 3.

The progression of events (in my eyes) should have been:

* End of round 1 status phase -> you gain 6 threat for a total of 6 threat.

* Mid of round 2 playing High Value Target -> you gain 6 thrat for a total of 12 threat.

* End of round 2 status phase -> you gain 6 threat for a total of 18 threat.

* End of round 2 deployment -> you spend X threat for a total of 18-X threat.

* End of round 2 effects -> you play Imperial Informatns to gain 6 threat for a total of 18-X+6. If this would be above 20, the threat is capped at 20.

Don't forge the status phase order of events:

* Ready all imperial cards and rebel activation tokens

* Gain threat according to the threat level

* Spend threat to deploy or reinforce deployment groups

* Resolve End of Round effects (Imperial Informants kicks in here)

I had similar end results (as the Imperial) in our first IRL campaign with Military Might and High-Value Target.

We progressed (as a rebel) a bit better in a Play by Forum campaign, but Subversive Tactics gave a bigger challenge. (And we made the same mistake with dropping the AT-ST with the last activation. I didn't remember the events from the old campaign. We recovered well enough to get two heroes to the Clearing before General Weiss wounded Fenn to end the mission and campaign.)

Desperate Hour is certainly the more difficult finale for the rebels.

Ah okay. So, there was one mistake: I wouldn't have had the eNexu then (most likely)--and "only" had 9 troopers, 2 eGuards, and an eProbe Droid. I'm...not seeing a lot of difference, there. ; ) Except perhaps giving my players greater incentive to play it out to their inevitable doom. --Good to know about that whole end-of-round sequence though; that was a rule I had missed, and thanks.

I guess it really was just an "I-WIN" button. So...yay for me for pushing it...?

Yes, if you save up all your agenda cards for the final mission, you will win. Don't do it. Same reason you don't use the Imperial Industry card or General Sorin because troops running around stunning the rebels every round is an auto-win. I don't use any of the 1-shot agenda cards at all, they're too cheesy and pretty much hand you a win.

Yes, if you save up all your agenda cards for the final mission, you will win. Don't do it. Same reason you don't use the Imperial Industry card or General Sorin because troops running around stunning the rebels every round is an auto-win. I don't use any of the 1-shot agenda cards at all, they're too cheesy and pretty much hand you a win.

<snip>

So. Just to make sure: did any of that break the rules? In retrospect, I may have swung the hammer a bit *too* hard, with the 24 threat. But still, that was the only secret card played up to that point.

<snip>

Sooooo yes, I used up all one of my secret agendas by that point in the mission. Yep, that's how the mission lost its fun. Did you even read my post, or did you just jump on the podium and start pounding? (Granted, it's a long post to read, but come on, it's *right there*. ; )

Yes, if you save up all your agenda cards for the final mission, you will win. Don't do it. Same reason you don't use the Imperial Industry card or General Sorin because troops running around stunning the rebels every round is an auto-win. I don't use any of the 1-shot agenda cards at all, they're too cheesy and pretty much hand you a win.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not a huge fan of needing to pull punches just so the rebels stand a chance at winning the campaign. It's indicative of poor balance

If General Sorin / Imperial Industry are overpowered, they should be re-balanced. There should also be more incentives for spending secret agendas prior to the finale, or restrictions on how many secret agendas can be used in a single mission.

I doubt we're going to see much of a change here rules-wise, but I'm willing to entertain house rules. Only 2 secret agendas can be used a mission? Etc..

It'd be nice if the imperial player can try their hardest to win that finale mission and have it not be a definite win.

I will be using an agenda card limit of 4 (including both hidden cards and cards in the play area) in my next campaign. It should encourage spending cards at the rate you can buy them, so you won't have a huge hand in the finale.

(If you have more than 4 agenda cards hidden/in play area at the end of the upgrade stage, you need to discard cards until you have only 4 left.)

I will be using an agenda card limit of 4 (including both hidden cards and cards in the play area) in my next campaign. It should encourage spending cards at the rate you can buy them, so you won't have a huge hand in the finale.

(If you have more than 4 agenda cards hidden/in play area at the end of the upgrade stage, you need to discard cards until you have only 4 left.)

That's a neat idea, though I think I'd like to modify that to "you can only bring 4 cards to the mission". I think it's fine to have larger selection but limit yourself to 4 mission-by-mission. Like items! (You can have 5 weapons but can only bring 2 on any given mission)

Interesting. We just played Desperate Hour and my kids won! Handily. (They were using 3 heroes, so they had the +3health Heroic upgrades) They had the DXR-6 or whatever it's called (double-red dice and +6 Accuracy), and they brought in Chewie (15pts) and some rTroopers (4pts). Weiss went down quickly to the combo of Fenn and Gideon (Master Stroke is ace), and then the Rebels got their own AT-ST, which really put things over the top, since only 1 Rebel was wounded at this point. After that it was a matter of Diala rolling 4 X-Men to stay in the game, and Gideon using Master Stroke to use their AT-ST to hammer Weiss.

They had a blast, and so did I. I never really worried too much about the Agenda cards, so maybe that was part of the issue. But regardless, it was fun...and definitely not a cakewalk for the Imperials.

Interesting. We just played Desperate Hour and my kids won! Handily. (They were using 3 heroes, so they had the +3health Heroic upgrades) They had the DXR-6 or whatever it's called (double-red dice and +6 Accuracy), and they brought in Chewie (15pts) and some rTroopers (4pts). Weiss went down quickly to the combo of Fenn and Gideon (Master Stroke is ace), and then the Rebels got their own AT-ST, which really put things over the top, since only 1 Rebel was wounded at this point. After that it was a matter of Diala rolling 4 X-Men to stay in the game, and Gideon using Master Stroke to use their AT-ST to hammer Weiss.

They had a blast, and so did I. I never really worried too much about the Agenda cards, so maybe that was part of the issue. But regardless, it was fun...and definitely not a cakewalk for the Imperials.

Normally you're only supposed to bring 1 ally, right? Or are the rTroopers automatically given to them by the mission?

Interesting. We just played Desperate Hour and my kids won! Handily. (They were using 3 heroes, so they had the +3health Heroic upgrades) They had the DXR-6 or whatever it's called (double-red dice and +6 Accuracy), and they brought in Chewie (15pts) and some rTroopers (4pts). Weiss went down quickly to the combo of Fenn and Gideon (Master Stroke is ace), and then the Rebels got their own AT-ST, which really put things over the top, since only 1 Rebel was wounded at this point. After that it was a matter of Diala rolling 4 X-Men to stay in the game, and Gideon using Master Stroke to use their AT-ST to hammer Weiss.

They had a blast, and so did I. I never really worried too much about the Agenda cards, so maybe that was part of the issue. But regardless, it was fun...and definitely not a cakewalk for the Imperials.

Normally you're only supposed to bring 1 ally, right? Or are the rTroopers automatically given to them by the mission?

Maybe that was part of the problem, because we did bring 2 allies. The rTroopers were not given by the mission. We play skirmish all the time in my home (seriously, like 4-6x per week), and don't usually do campaign more than once or maybe twice per month, and so we're probably not quite as up on a couple of the rules as we should be.

However, the extra troopers really didn't have an impact. Two of the three troopers died right away from the Heavy ST's Blast attacks, and the last one only make something like 1 or 2 attacks before dying himself. Chewbacca was useful with Protector and 3-dice attack and Slam, though.

Interesting. We just played Desperate Hour and my kids won! Handily. (They were using 3 heroes, so they had the +3health Heroic upgrades) They had the DXR-6 or whatever it's called (double-red dice and +6 Accuracy), and they brought in Chewie (15pts) and some rTroopers (4pts). Weiss went down quickly to the combo of Fenn and Gideon (Master Stroke is ace), and then the Rebels got their own AT-ST, which really put things over the top, since only 1 Rebel was wounded at this point. After that it was a matter of Diala rolling 4 X-Men to stay in the game, and Gideon using Master Stroke to use their AT-ST to hammer Weiss.

They had a blast, and so did I. I never really worried too much about the Agenda cards, so maybe that was part of the issue. But regardless, it was fun...and definitely not a cakewalk for the Imperials.

Normally you're only supposed to bring 1 ally, right? Or are the rTroopers automatically given to them by the mission?

Maybe that was part of the problem, because we did bring 2 allies. The rTroopers were not given by the mission. We play skirmish all the time in my home (seriously, like 4-6x per week), and don't usually do campaign more than once or maybe twice per month, and so we're probably not quite as up on a couple of the rules as we should be.

However, the extra troopers really didn't have an impact. Two of the three troopers died right away from the Heavy ST's Blast attacks, and the last one only make something like 1 or 2 attacks before dying himself. Chewbacca was useful with Protector and 3-dice attack and Slam, though.

Haha well, I guess it would have been even worse for you then, because you would have been down 4 threat. Sounds like having good focused fire and 4 Dodges on Diala made it tough to deal with.

I've also heard that Chewie is much better later in the campaign, because the Threat he give the Imperials is less significant then.