Even Redline with his 27 points base cost pales against Contracted Scouts.

I tried several different lists including Punishers.

I'm sorry to say, they are just not worth it.

You could do some crazy stuff with them in fun games, like laying minefields

or doing the Deathrain trickery and basically thats it.

They just get too expensive far far too quickly.

Tie Bombers anytime.

Oh the minefields are glorious. I love setting up the terrain with slightly wider than 1distance asteroids so they "look" safe and have room for error, only to Deathrain the mines out of my front/dodge out or Adv Sensors and leave, creating a massive no-fly-zone. Especially against larger ships its nice because they usually cant evade it without being completely useless for a few turns going around it. They usually hit a rock or the mines or both.

Thats the main issue i got in the decision. Bomber is better since its way cheaper and the pilot skills for missiles arent anywhere near as important so if you ditch Jonus or Rhymer then hes reaaally cheap, but sacrifices the easy minetrap play. I just love doing that too much even if it isnt usually the game-maker move. I win more because i force my opponent to split up than i do because of the damage.

Ran the bomber with the same mindset and i just couldnt use the mines effectively. Lack of Adv Sensors made me have to use it normally, which usually means the enemy ships are far enough away where they can easily hard turn out of the way. That, and being unable to use front arcs usually means i get caught afterwords since i have to head forward as fast as possible instead of hard left/right most of the time.

Thats why i put the seismic charge on him instead of mines. Little cheaper, more practical since its not an action. Really easy to snag some free damage with that thing.

The more i think about it the more im leaning towards the bomber though. I love the bomb play, but i gotta be honest its not as crazy as the torpedo shenanigans.

And yeah, feth u-boats. That **** generic pilot is too cheap. No large ship should be cheap enough to bring multiples of unless you are running them with minimal upgrades, let alone 3 fully **** decked out.

I prefer Punishers solely because of native boost. Boost is very effective for setting up bomb drops on future rounds. Boost also makes firing ordnance at the faster ships a bit easier. 3 Bank/Turn + Boost allows a large distance and angle change that makes their forward arc harder to avoid.

Bombers are great still, but they feel way too straight forward and predictable without boost. Punishers get thr option to be crazy for a few rounds or actually disengage from the fight to come back in at better times.

Of course, the pts difference sometimes makes it rough. 21 pt Cutlass isnt in a horrid place cost wise, but due to 3 Jumpmaster list being at PS3, almost have to take the Black 8 or up to a names pilot.

Punisher. More fun.

Deathrain is super fun with seismics and against aces. (And really really bad vs TLT and prob uboats.)

They have LRS capability. 2 different bombs for 4 bombs possible. Systems slot.

And when you throw green blanks, you might as well have 3 more hp.

After Imperial Vets, Bombers are winning by a landslide. (Deathrain is still awesome)

Punishers could've done with being ~3pts cheaper. In the name of verisimilitude ("But Y-wings are 18pts and have 1 less HP!"), I'd have accepted a generic at 19, with the System slot being expected to make up the difference the same way the Turret does on a Y.

Critically, that extra 2pts would've been effectively free Extra Munitions on the things compared to now...

After Imperial Vets, Bombers are winning by a landslide. (Deathrain is still awesome)

myar

Deathfire is real neat and all, but it's mostly because he's so economical (23 for brace of conners). Deathrain still has, by far, the easiest time applying conners to faces

Oh the minefields are glorious. I love setting up the terrain with slightly wider than 1distance asteroids so they "look" safe and have room for error, only to Deathrain the mines out of my front/dodge out or Adv Sensors and leave, creating a massive no-fly-zone. Especially against larger ships its nice because they usually cant evade it without being completely useless for a few turns going around it. They usually hit a rock or the mines or both.

Thats the main issue i got in the decision. Bomber is better since its way cheaper and the pilot skills for missiles arent anywhere near as important so if you ditch Jonus or Rhymer then hes reaaally cheap, but sacrifices the easy minetrap play. I just love doing that too much even if it isnt usually the game-maker move. I win more because i force my opponent to split up than i do because of the damage.

Ran the bomber with the same mindset and i just couldnt use the mines effectively. Lack of Adv Sensors made me have to use it normally, which usually means the enemy ships are far enough away where they can easily hard turn out of the way. That, and being unable to use front arcs usually means i get caught afterwords since i have to head forward as fast as possible instead of hard left/right most of the time.

Thats why i put the seismic charge on him instead of mines. Little cheaper, more practical since its not an action. Really easy to snag some free damage with that thing.

The more i think about it the more im leaning towards the bomber though. I love the bomb play, but i gotta be honest its not as crazy as the torpedo shenanigans.

And yeah, feth u-boats. That **** generic pilot is too cheap. No large ship should be cheap enough to bring multiples of unless you are running them with minimal upgrades, let alone 3 fully **** decked out.

Scimitar are great for mines.

They are low PS, and usually move first. Meaning you know where your opponent ships are.

They are tanky, so they are good surviving a couple round before getting blown to bits.

So they are great to get into position, move first, you know where ships are and drop mines right under them.

The rule change awhile back that now makes them detonate the moment they are placed under a ship helped a lot.

Try flying 4 scimitar with Prox mines and a Vader shuttle. It's fun

Mines on the other hand you want on high PS ships.

Since they detonate at the end of the activation phase, you want to know where your opponent will be. Moving last in this case will help you get your seismic, Proton bomb or whatever off.

Low PS your playing a guessing game if he'll be in range one or not.

I like Deathrain, but meh, he's way to costly to use for bombs. He is fun, but bombs, mines especially are a gamble, since your opponent is at the mercy of unmodified dice rolls. Maybe you'll hit, maybe not.

Not something I want to invest a ton into

Another bomber list I did very well back in wave 5 was this

2 scimitar w/ Prox mines

Academy pilot

Capt. Oicunn

Mara jade

Rebel captive

Dauntless

May still not be bad, I went something like 11/12 win 1 lose with it.

Only loss was a tie swarm

Anyway worked very well and those Prox mines ended a lot of ships such as wedge coran, jake from what I can remember

Oh the minefields are glorious. I love setting up the terrain with slightly wider than 1distance asteroids so they "look" safe and have room for error, only to Deathrain the mines out of my front/dodge out or Adv Sensors and leave, creating a massive no-fly-zone. Especially against larger ships its nice because they usually cant evade it without being completely useless for a few turns going around it. They usually hit a rock or the mines or both.

Thats the main issue i got in the decision. Bomber is better since its way cheaper and the pilot skills for missiles arent anywhere near as important so if you ditch Jonus or Rhymer then hes reaaally cheap, but sacrifices the easy minetrap play. I just love doing that too much even if it isnt usually the game-maker move. I win more because i force my opponent to split up than i do because of the damage.

Ran the bomber with the same mindset and i just couldnt use the mines effectively. Lack of Adv Sensors made me have to use it normally, which usually means the enemy ships are far enough away where they can easily hard turn out of the way. That, and being unable to use front arcs usually means i get caught afterwords since i have to head forward as fast as possible instead of hard left/right most of the time.

Thats why i put the seismic charge on him instead of mines. Little cheaper, more practical since its not an action. Really easy to snag some free damage with that thing.

The more i think about it the more im leaning towards the bomber though. I love the bomb play, but i gotta be honest its not as crazy as the torpedo shenanigans.

And yeah, feth u-boats. That **** generic pilot is too cheap. No large ship should be cheap enough to bring multiples of unless you are running them with minimal upgrades, let alone 3 fully **** decked out.

Mines on the other hand you want on high PS ships.

I think you meant "Bombs" instead of "Mines" here.

Redline all the way. Nobody does ordnance better, and at 38 points with 4, 6 if you count clusters twice, there is still plenty of room to add some more bomber or an ace or two.

I prefer Punishers because of the Shields. They let you soak a shot so you can blast their faces off. Been kicking around a bomber Punisher Decimator list. Just can't think of a good reason to use the deci... Besides it's huge and cool.

I prefer TIE Bomber over Punisher in almost every situation.

TIE Bomber is faster, more agile and considerably cheaper.

Only when mass bombing runs and sizable ordnance delivery is considered I see the point of TIE Punisher - two bomb slots and system upgrade makes it very good at deploying mines, while targeting systems allow fast and reliable missile/torpedo delivery.

Still in 9 out of 10 situations I'd choose TIE Bomber.

I just won a tournament with Redline today. I vastly prefer Punishers; Redline is brutal, direct death incarnate. Even the likes of Soontir aren't safe from him. Oh, your opponent knows this and goes after him first? Good, use your other 62 points to punish the hell out of him for it.

Though funnily enough I've never lost with Rhymer. PtL with Adv. Proton Torps really is quite good. Also had decent luck with Adv. Homing and ruthlessness.

I added some to the OP:

Punisher Pros:
+System Upgrade Slot

+Has 3shields

+Two bomb slots

+Deathrain; frontal bombs + barrel roll

+Boost

+can use extra munitions

Punisher Cons:

-Lacks EPT

-Fair bit more expensive

-No barrel roll outside Deathrain bomb ability

-1 Agility

-Moves like a **** tank.

Bomber Pros:

+Very good mobility

+Cheap

+6 Hull

+EPT

+2 agility

+Major Rhymer nullifies range 1 problems on Proton Torpedoes and Concussion Missiles.

+Tomax Brax (unreleased); combine with crackshot, adrenaline rush, or lightning reflexes

+Deathfire (unreleased); enables more versatile Mines than ever.

+Barrel Roll

+Captain Jonus; one of THE best Imperial pilots in my book.

+can use extra munitions

Bomber Cons:

-No shields, any crit at any point will do something.

-No Boost

-No system upgrade slot

-Rhymer is somewhat expensive

With Imp Aces I shall have 3 Bombers. I have no Punishers.

I have tested borrowed Punisher and they tend to become over expensive and therefore a primary target.

I prefer a flight of Bombers anytime.

I am no OT-purist, but.....

Nothing beats a classic.

As long as you don't need 2 bomb slots, Tie Bombers are the better choice.

Tie Bombers are waaay cheaper and when it comes to Missiles and Torps, they both have the same firepower.

I am really growing the idea that Punishers would need something special.

Something that would also fit to the fluff.

Fluff-wise one Punisher has the same firepower as 4 Tie Bombers.

Just take a look at the models and you know why.

No I wouldn't go that far, but ...

Something similar to the Advances Targeting Computer - but for Missiles and Torps.

Or even to let them attack twice with secondaries, then you can't attack the next round.

Or even getting +1 die when attacking small-based ships with missiles and large-based ships with torps.

Infinite ammo would be comparable in the long run, with the danger of losing the alpha battle.

TL;DR: Punishers would need more firepower compared to cheaper bombers.

I added some to the OP:

Punisher Pros:

+System Upgrade Slot

+Has 3shields

+Two bomb slots

+Deathrain; frontal bombs + barrel roll

+Boost

+can use extra munitions

Another Pro:

Punishers may survive 2 U-Boat torpedos; Tie Bombers don't.

(Given that you don't pull Direct Hits or Explosion crits)

I love the bomber, It's very imperial to me.

It's cheap and has a tendency to blow up, but it shouldn't be the pin holding your list together so you can let it fall into flames, hopefully doing it's job by then and taking up to 3 attacks.

The Punisher is more safety wrapped into it's package with shields and the possibility of Autothrusters, but I think that safety is a lie for the points it costs. For safety you're hinging too many points onto it when it really survives in the game much like a Ywing (Which is to say, it doesn't survive long)

Would this list stand a chance against U-Boats?

Tie Bombers are my pick, whether as pure missile boats or as multi role bomb/missile platforms. Cheaper than Punishers, so you can fit more in. Four to five Tie bombers screaming across the board is great fun and looks awesome.

Would this list stand a chance against U-Boats?

Black Eight Squadron Pilot (33) x 3

TIE Punisher (23), Advanced Sensors (3), Extra Munitions (2), Homing Missiles (5), Long Range Scanners (0)

Obviously PS4 to fire first.

LRS to get TL + Focus on each Punisher in the alpha.

HM because you are going to need rerolls.

LRS and FCS don't synergize, so AS which allow you to boost or focus before k-turning.

If you have a lucky roll and you don't need TL for rerolls, focus and k-turn to shoot the second Missile.

Your alpha is going to be 12 dice. On a best case you are doing 9 damage (enough to kill it). The U-boat needs to roll 4 evades total between all attacks to survive.

The Uboats fire back with the almost guaranteed 4 hits (Though it may not be). They need to do 9 damage as well. Their damage will include a crit due to the Proton torpedo. If you did not take down a Uboat first turn, you're toast. If you did take it down, you now have one Punisher with a probability of 2 crits on it and 1-3 hull. With it's 360 degree arc, you will be struggling for a beta strike.

So it's possible, but it will be a very hard battle.

What is great about LRS? Rhymer can now cheaply and effectively have a Focus + Target lock for Advanced Proton Torps and even take VI as an EPT to save arc dodging whoes.

Oh the minefields are glorious. I love setting up the terrain with slightly wider than 1distance asteroids so they "look" safe and have room for error, only to Deathrain the mines out of my front/dodge out or Adv Sensors and leave, creating a massive no-fly-zone. Especially against larger ships its nice because they usually cant evade it without being completely useless for a few turns going around it. They usually hit a rock or the mines or both.

Thats the main issue i got in the decision. Bomber is better since its way cheaper and the pilot skills for missiles arent anywhere near as important so if you ditch Jonus or Rhymer then hes reaaally cheap, but sacrifices the easy minetrap play. I just love doing that too much even if it isnt usually the game-maker move. I win more because i force my opponent to split up than i do because of the damage.

Ran the bomber with the same mindset and i just couldnt use the mines effectively. Lack of Adv Sensors made me have to use it normally, which usually means the enemy ships are far enough away where they can easily hard turn out of the way. That, and being unable to use front arcs usually means i get caught afterwords since i have to head forward as fast as possible instead of hard left/right most of the time.

Thats why i put the seismic charge on him instead of mines. Little cheaper, more practical since its not an action. Really easy to snag some free damage with that thing.

The more i think about it the more im leaning towards the bomber though. I love the bomb play, but i gotta be honest its not as crazy as the torpedo shenanigans.

And yeah, feth u-boats. That **** generic pilot is too cheap. No large ship should be cheap enough to bring multiples of unless you are running them with minimal upgrades, let alone 3 fully **** decked out.

Mines on the other hand you want on high PS ships.

I think you meant "Bombs" instead of "Mines" here.

I'll admit that I've never flown my Tie Punisher. I just love the Tie Bomber so much that I haven't even tried it. I should remedy that soon as I've been wanting to try out that Bomb guy.

Bombers for sure. Punishers are just way too expensive for what they offer over a bomber. The punisher should have kept the 2 agility that the bomber has, without that they are just way too fragile for the amount of points you have to invest in them.

I'm also pretty miffed that they gave us the punisher instead of the Missile Boat, as that would have been a far superior counterpart to the K-Wing with SLAM.

When I saw that they did the SLAM action, but did not do an Imp missile boat, I was about the same. The SLAM came from the missle boat. It was Imperial long before the K-wing was invented. Why must every imperial small ship have to be a TIE.

The Tie Punisher just needs a zero-cost title card that adds the EPT slot. Give it that and the Punisher becomes much more effective.

Punisher is the worst ship in the game. Bomber is underrated, and lower PS ones are very cost effective especially with weapons guidance.

wrong

punisher is not the scyk