Does the Bone Horror Lash ability and the Hellhound Hunt ability work on a hero that is defeated by the attack?

There are arguments for both sides.

The argument against it is that after the attack resolves, damage has already been dealt and the hero is no longer on the map - only their token is. Therefore there is nothing for the Lash or Hunt to operate on.

The argument for it is that that there is precedent for the hero token being considered a hero on the map for certain effects (such as healing effects), and the surge has already been spent on the target and should be allowed to resolve.

The latter argument is weaker, so I lean towards the former, but I'd like to hear the community's opinion on this. This isn't the first time I've seen this issue come up.

Another similar case to this is a lieutenant that is defeated by the Crossbow on a quest where the lieutenant would be knocked unconscious. Can the heroes move the unconscious body of the lieutenant with the Crossbow, or is the unconscious body of the lieutenant not the lieutenant itself? (Example map: Splig in Labyrinth of Ruin's "Let the Truth Be Buried" Encounter 1). This gets even sketchier, because the lieutenant in these scenarios is *not* replaced by a token, he simply gets a fatigue marker put on him.

But, if his body follows the same rules as heroes, is it 'as if' he has been replaced by a token, and he is actually no longer on the map? Another one for the glossary perhaps..

As an unrelated curiosity, I ran into the case today where Orkell the Swift was hit by a Bone Horror, and then reacted using his heroic ability to move where he was out of range of Extend. Sadly, Lash doesn't care if the hero is now out of range, and still nabbed him anyway. Poor Orkell!

Bone Horrors are cool.

Easy (correct) solution: The s S urge abilities are applied BEFORE damage is dealt. The figure is moved by lash (or whatever) in step 4, damage is dealt in step 5, defeating them wherever they are.

Bonus rules fact: Moving a figure like this does not change the target space. So, if you had crossbow AND blast, you would blast each space you adjacent to the space you targeted, not the space where the figure is after it is moved.

Orkell would have to move one space from wherever the bone horror threw him.

EDIT: The above works for Knockback and the crossbow. It was correctly pointed out that "Lash" and "Hunt" work differently. See my next post.

Zaltyre, there is a problem with your ruling. Read the wording of Lash and Hunt. Both of them say, "After the attack resolves".

I realize that Surges are spent before damage is dealt. If that was all there was to it, this would be an easy ruling!

However, because the effect of the surge doesn't occur until 'after the attack resolves' (after damage has been dealt, heroes have been defeated, Orkell's ability has been triggered), we have a whole new situation.

As for the Crossbow and Splig, you are correct I think. Because the Crossbow doesn't have the "after the attack resolves" messiness, then Splig should move prior to being knocked out. Good stuff.

However! The problem remains if say, a master Bone Horror was taken control of by Necromancer's "Dying Command", defeats Splig, surges for Lash. Can he move the body of Splig? Dun-dun-dun!

"When a hero or monster suffers damage equal to its Health, that figure is immediately defeated."

"When your hero is defeated, he immediately suffers fatigue up to his Stamina, and damage up to his Health (if defeated by some other effect).Remove his figure from the map and replace it with one of your hero tokens."

I think lash or hunt not apply (or Orkell ability). The hero token cannot be target for any attack or effect.

Quest: Let the truth be buried - special rules: During this encounter, Splig follows the same rules for being defeated as heroes. The crossbow has no word instructing the surge effect after the attack resolves (+1 and move the target 1 space). So Splig can be moved and knocked unconscious on the consequence of the attack .

Now i have a question, Dying Command: "If you pass, return that monster to the map. Then move the monster up to its Speed and perform an attack with it. Then remove the monster from the map". You can still apply surges after the attack resolves ( in the case of lash or hunt being applied after the attack ) ? The monster its not present on the map anymore. A nalogous application in the Dark Charm, the effect ends immediately after the heroes move or attack .

Good question Kraisto. I think the Lash would still apply. Lash occurs "after the attack resolves", and Dying Command is worded "perform an attack, THEN remove the monster from the map".

I think its reasonable to say that "after the attack resolves" occurs before anything that happens after the attack.

I'll be basing my answers off of this [excerpt of a] response from Kara:

Good question Kraisto. I think the Lash would still apply. Lash occurs "after the attack resolves", and Dying Command is worded "perform an attack, THEN remove the monster from the map".

I think its reasonable to say that "after the attack resolves" occurs before anything that happens after the attack.

If the attack resolves and the hero gets moved AND knocked out after the attack doesn't the player which turn it is decide in which order everything happens? I mean even if he is knocked out immediately after the attack, he is also moved (which is also "immediately" after the attack resolves as there is no step or rule which says there is a "immediately after attack resolves phase" or something like that)... so the rule should apply like that or not?

As per Zaltyre's FFG reference, things are now further clarified, and conform with the ruling I felt stronger about originally (This ordering is a good thing to add to the Glossary!)

The ruling is that attacks resolve after damage is dealt and heroes are defeated. They are not simultaneous events, and the player whose turn it is can only decide the order of simultaneous events. Thus, the movement from effects like Lash and Hunt cannot affect the defeated heroes, as they are no longer on the map. I guess the implied additional ruling here is that the hero token is not a hero on the map for any purposes other than healing.

One thing that remains unaddressed is whether Lieutenants who can be knocked out also have this property, or are their unconscious bodies still considered valid targets for Hunt and Lash!

If the attack resolves and the hero gets moved AND knocked out after the attack doesn't the player which turn it is decide in which order everything happens? I mean even if he is knocked out immediately after the attack, he is also moved (which is also "immediately" after the attack resolves as there is no step or rule which says there is a "immediately after attack resolves phase" or something like that)... so the rule should apply like that or not?

As per Zaltyre's FFG reference, things are now further clarified, and conform with the ruling I felt stronger about originally (This ordering is a good thing to add to the Glossary!)

The ruling is that attacks resolve after damage is dealt and heroes are defeated. They are not simultaneous events, and the player whose turn it is can only decide the order of simultaneous events. Thus, the movement from effects like Lash and Hunt cannot affect the defeated heroes, a they are no longer on the map. I guess the implied additional ruling here is that the hero token is not a hero on the map for any purposes other than healing.

One thing that remains unaddressed is whether Lieutenants who can be knocked out also have this special provision, or are their unconscious bodies still considered valid targets for Hunt and Lash!

It depends on the rules of each quest i guess. See my comment on the special rules on Splig "During this encounter, Splig follows the same rules for being defeated as heroes" - the fatigue token is the hero token equivalent to the lieutenant, not valid for hunt or lash movement.

It depends on the rules of each quest i guess. See my comment on the special rules on Splig "During this encounter, Splig follows the same rules for being defeated as heroes" - the fatigue token is the hero token equivalent to the lieutenant, not valid for hunt or lash movement.

There is nothing which states the fatigue token on the lieutenant actually is the hero token equivalent. Choosing to do this has implications, such as it meaning that the Lieutenant is actually not on the map while the fatigue token is on them. For instance, this means the Overlord cannot use a relic equipped to the lieutenant such as the Staff of Shadow while they are unconscious.

Nonetheless, its a reasonable house rule. I will probably play it that way.

It depends on the rules of each quest i guess. See my comment on the special rules on Splig "During this encounter, Splig follows the same rules for being defeated as heroes" - the fatigue token is the hero token equivalent to the lieutenant, not valid for hunt or lash movement.

There is nothing which states the fatigue token on the lieutenant actually is the hero token equivalent. Choosing to do this has implications, such as it meaning that the Lieutenant is actually not on the map while the fatigue token is on them. For instance, this means the Overlord cannot use a relic equipped to the lieutenant such as the Staff of Shadow while they are unconscious.

Nonetheless, its a reasonable house rule. I will probably play it that way.

While it's technically true that following rules for being "defeated' aren't explicitly the rules for being "knocked out", I think it's a fairly safe assumption/ house rule.

As a note, everything gets defeated. Generally, only heroes (not even familiars, just actual heroes) get 'knocked out'.

I am reading this:

Special Rules: During this encounter, Splig follows the same rules for being defeated as heroes (he is knocked out when defetead and as an action, may stand up when activated).

Q: Certain quests allow the lieutenants to stand up, similar to heroes. Are class tokens (hex, elixir, trap, etc.) discard when the lieutenant is defeated? If not, this could potentially be a huge advantage to the heroes given that usually these quests that allow lieutenants to stand-up involve the lieutenant being part of the win condition.

A: When lieutenants or allies are knocked out, it only takes one action for them to stand back up. The rules refer to it being the same as heroes in that they are "knocked-out" meaning they are not discarded from the map.

I am reading this:

Special Rules: During this encounter, Splig follows the same rules for being defeated as heroes (he is knocked out when defetead and as an action, may stand up when activated).

Q: Certain quests allow the lieutenants to stand up, similar to heroes. Are class tokens (hex, elixir, trap, etc.) discard when the lieutenant is defeated? If not, this could potentially be a huge advantage to the heroes given that usually these quests that allow lieutenants to stand-up involve the lieutenant being part of the win condition.

A: When lieutenants or allies are knocked out, it only takes one action for them to stand back up. The rules refer to it being the same as heroes in that they are "knocked-out" meaning they are not discarded from the map.

That is pretty explicitly stating that yes, he gets "knocked out" meaning while he is defeated, he's not on the map and can only be targeted by healing things, just like heroes.

It depends on the rules of each quest i guess. See my comment on the special rules on Splig "During this encounter, Splig follows the same rules for being defeated as heroes" - the fatigue token is the hero token equivalent to the lieutenant, not valid for hunt or lash movement.

There is nothing which states the fatigue token on the lieutenant actually is the hero token equivalent. Choosing to do this has implications, such as it meaning that the Lieutenant is actually not on the map while the fatigue token is on them. For instance, this means the Overlord cannot use a relic equipped to the lieutenant such as the Staff of Shadow while they are unconscious.

Nonetheless, its a reasonable house rule. I will probably play it that way.

FFG can't assume that everyone bought the lieutenant pack, so some groups may be playing Splig as a token...

so they can't say replace Splig with a token if he is already a token. This is why they use the fatigue token mechanism. It represents that the Lieutenant's "figure" is off the map and replaced by a token.

I am reading this:

Special Rules: During this encounter, Splig follows the same rules for being defeated as heroes (he is knocked out when defetead and as an action, may stand up when activated).

Q: Certain quests allow the lieutenants to stand up, similar to heroes. Are class tokens (hex, elixir, trap, etc.) discard when the lieutenant is defeated? If not, this could potentially be a huge advantage to the heroes given that usually these quests that allow lieutenants to stand-up involve the lieutenant being part of the win condition.

A: When lieutenants or allies are knocked out, it only takes one action for them to stand back up. The rules refer to it being the same as heroes in that they are "knocked-out" meaning they are not discarded from the map.

This is an official ruling? If Allies or Lieutenants (in a quest that uses these rules) are knocked out they do not forfeit their entire turn when standing up?

Yes. They do not forfeit their entire turn. It was explained that this is generally because the LT is critical to the quest (that's why they can't be killed outright) and since there is only 1 of them, it is way too easy for the heroes to spam KO and keep them pinned if they lose their entire turn when standing.