...for 4 rookie pilots to face 3 x7 Delta defenders, and have the outcome be in doubt.

Seriously, the x7 is the gold standard for jousting. it's a high 20s/low 30s point ship who's only repositioning tool is barrel roll, but looks to be about to take the meta by storm due to it's incredible survivability.

3 x7 deltas is only 84 points, has 18 health behind 3 agility, and a free evade on each, each turn. 4 naked rookiees, with just a 1 point droid for IA, comes to 88 points, has 24 health behind just 2 agility, and an unused torpedo slot. The rookiees are throwing more reds against much stronger greens, but their power drops off faster as each dies quicker.

How much is enough? How much is too much?

Would a title that gives a free torpedo do it? Free torpedo with built in deadeye? Free torpedo, deadeye, EPT, a munition token and built in guidance chips?

A proton torpedo is a thematic weapon for the Xwing, but is a trap in our minis game, as you have to choose between Integrated Astromech and Guidance chips. Mechanically, an unmodified proton torpedo is inferior to just throwing 3 reds with that target lock you were going to use on the torp. And waiting for a TL/Focus has anti-synergy with the Proton torpedo's own ability. Even with a completely free torpeo, without another bonus it's still not going to be able to compete against the Delta flight.

If each proton was not only free, but could be given enough mods that it's all but guarenteed to roll 4 hits/crits, what then? Salvoed against an X7 with Focus/Evade in 1 round... call it 1 less damage from each attack from green dice, plus 1 extra reduced from focus and 1 canceled with evade... call it 3 torpedos to off a single defender. Leaving the fight as 2 x7 defenders, with white k turns, against 4 agility 2, 3 red ships that cant even 1 hard. Is that enough for a fair fight? Jousters vs jousters, this should be a pure numbers fight. (we'll give the Xwings a white K for the sake of the argument)

3 red vs 3 green, focus for attacker only, does an average of 2.25 hits vs an average of 1.125 evades, or about 6 attacks to kill a defender, plus 1 for every round it takes from the defenders evade tokens. Meanwhile 3 reds vs 2 greens, focus for attacker only, comes to 2.25 hits vs .75 evades on average, with no evade token- it takes 4 attacks on average to drop a rookie, or two rounds of fire.

Simplified, yes, but lets run this out.

Round 1, rookiees salvo torps, drop 1 defender. Deltas return with half a rookiee's life.

Round 2, 4 attacks on a defender, defender half dead after evade, deltas finish wounded rookiee.

Round 3, 3 attacks, evade token, Average! defender hanging on with 1 health. Defenders do half to another rookiee.

Round 4, 2 attacks to finish the wounded delta, last attack stopped by evade token. Delta does a third quarter to wounded rookiee

Round 5, 3 attacks, last defender at 4 health left. Defender kills a rookiee.

Round 6, 2 attacks, last defender at 3 life. Defender does 1/4 back.

Round 7, Delta at 2, rookiee at half

Round 8, Delta at 1, rookiee at 3/4

Round 9, rookiees pull off a win, just short of losing their ability to hurt the token-stacking x7.

This feels like a fairy balanced matchup, if we can get to that point. (que MajorJuggler telling me I have it all wrong)

"All" it took was 1 point off the rookiees (or a 0 point astromech) to bring the point costs in line, a white K turn, a free torpedo, and a built in reroll+chips for said torpedo.

Is that too much to ask?

Here are your basic X-wing pilots.

Rookie Pilot PS 2 — X-Wing 21
Red Squadron Pilot PS 4 — X-Wing 23

If you did a -2 point title with a subtraction of something and a -1 point title with a free action, I think it would fall in line with what the ship needs to be at this point.

I am a strong fan of a free barrel roll at the end of movement for all ships before shooting like how the Phantom had before the fix of the decloak (not at the time just a free movement). Note Barrel roll not boost.

I hope the T-65 and E-wing come out in a Vet pack that gives fixes for both ships. I know the HWK and The Y-wing have gotten love so they should come later for fixes. The E-wing needs some love and seems like a good Ace pairing.

Why does everyone want to give the X-Wing boost and/or barrel roll? How about no?

You want a thematic fix, why not a title that gives them a discounted torpedo and the ability to ignore the "discard target lock" requirements of said torpedo? Gives them a bit more punch on the initial joust and allows them to choose to go all in on that joust with chips, or elect for the durability of IA for the dogfight after.

Why does everyone want to give the X-Wing boost and/or barrel roll? How about no?

You want a thematic fix, why not a title that gives them a discounted torpedo and the ability to ignore the "discard target lock" requirements of said torpedo? Gives them a bit more punch on the initial joust and allows them to choose to go all in on that joust with chips, or elect for the durability of IA for the dogfight after.

I really hate it when people dont read my posts.

So far you're the only one to mention action repositioning in this topic.

Why does everyone want to give the X-Wing boost and/or barrel roll? How about no?

You want a thematic fix, why not a title that gives them a discounted torpedo and the ability to ignore the "discard target lock" requirements of said torpedo? Gives them a bit more punch on the initial joust and allows them to choose to go all in on that joust with chips, or elect for the durability of IA for the dogfight after.

I really hate it when people dont read my posts.

So far you're the only one to mention action repositioning in this topic.

Cubanboy, right above my post, was talking about giving them a free barrel roll.

Well, that was hypocritical of me...

I'm an imp player but I feel the xwing really needs help. I just want it to be unique strategy wise. Something resource management like,

if at the beginning of combat you're at range one and you're in their firing arc, and he's in yours (jousting), then you can move the extra red to green if you like.

Or, reduce your weapon stat by one to increase agility by one...not an action. Could go the other way, (expose ish) as well. Seems like balanced but just gives you flexibility. Maybe?

... for it to stop people crying out for a fix for the X-Wing.

When you reveal a red maneuver, you may lower your primary weapon value by one until the end of the round to treat that maneuver as white.

It is absoltuely natural that 4 rookies in X-Wings have no chance against 3 Tie Defenders.

Try 3 of the renowned pilots instead.

(Try to fly your Rookies with Proton Torpedos and Guidance Chips. Rookies move after Deltas, take a TL and fire all torps at one target. This should be enough to wreck a Defender. Now with 4 vs 2 you should be able to win this.)

I want the X Wing to be a U Boat. Not like, a stairmaster clone, but in the same place in peoples excitement. I want people to look at the X Wing and think ****, that's a powerful ship!.

I don't really care how they do it. I'd prefer it to NOT be A.) a repositioning action or B.) a reliance on Torpedoes. I'd like the ship to stand on it's own two feet without NEEDING a particular weapon upgrade.

I want the X Wing to be a U Boat. Not like, a stairmaster clone, but in the same place in peoples excitement. I want people to look at the X Wing and think ****, that's a powerful ship!.

I don't really care how they do it. I'd prefer it to NOT be A.) a repositioning action or B.) a reliance on Torpedoes. I'd like the ship to stand on it's own two feet without NEEDING a particular weapon upgrade.

THATS a real customer.

Why does everyone want to give the X-Wing boost and/or barrel roll? How about no?

You want a thematic fix, why not a title that gives them a discounted torpedo and the ability to ignore the "discard target lock" requirements of said torpedo? Gives them a bit more punch on the initial joust and allows them to choose to go all in on that joust with chips, or elect for the durability of IA for the dogfight after.

probably because that's not even close to enough of a fix and torps still suck without the deadeye + r4 + gchips treatment AND x-wings are still about as durable as fried clay without IA

Why does everyone want to give the X-Wing boost and/or barrel roll? How about no?

You want a thematic fix, why not a title that gives them a discounted torpedo and the ability to ignore the "discard target lock" requirements of said torpedo? Gives them a bit more punch on the initial joust and allows them to choose to go all in on that joust with chips, or elect for the durability of IA for the dogfight after.

probably because that's not even close to enough of a fix and torps still suck without the deadeye + r4 + gchips treatment AND x-wings are still about as durable as fried clay without IA

Would you care to comment on the (rather crude) math in the OP? If the battle comes down to dice and statistically comes out 50/50 (or, hell, even 60/40!), that's enough for me, because it's a jouster. According to my math, the "break even point" is 4 torps to kill a turtling Defender, which makes the fight 2v4. Keeping the TL, plus proton focus, should be enough to reach that average. (it's basically the deadeye/R4/proton combo, without chips for insurance)

The white K to keep up with the Defender's white K is a bigger issue, in my mind. It may not be able to double action but it needs to be able to single action every turn...

..

It is absoltuely natural that 4 rookies in X-Wings have no chance against 3 Tie Defenders.

Try 3 of the renowned pilots instead.

(Try to fly your Rookies with Proton Torpedos and Guidance Chips. Rookies move after Deltas, take a TL and fire all torps at one target. This should be enough to wreck a Defender. Now with 4 vs 2 you should be able to win this.)

A ship with the same role fighting equal points of a ship of the same role should be a fair fight.

I have been forcing myself to play T65s at the local game night. I like them. I'm still playing with a winning record with Miranda and three Rookies but my game count is only anecdotal levels. That said, smashing non-arc dodgers has been pretty trivial so far. Jump Master? Eat 9 red. Ghost? Two rounds and I had three Xwings and a K while there was no Ghost. Arc dodgers are a problem but when I maneuver right and cover myself, I can pop them. I've killed Fel twice with my list in my few games.... Maneuvering right though to accurately predict an ace arc dodger is very difficult and if you miss a block it's pretty near always fatal. I'm lousy at blocking...

I don't believe post movement is necessary either... But something that makes somebody think twice before attempting a dive into a formation of Xwings for fear of messing up. Another red at range one? Something to take away randomness of dice? Anyway, I'm not a developer and very limited play tester in other games so I won't spam the board with my ideas. Simply put I think the 3 red where once was an Xwing advantage has been edged by the number of three green and three red ships and other defensive abilities that an opponent will just trade dice if they fail an arc dodge maneuver. They won't like it, but the risk/reward is skewed in their favour. It's totally worth the risk to dive in and rely on a post maneuver to try to clear mistakes because even if that fails the arc dodger often gets away unpunished. Dice luck says so.

One very interesting fix idea I saw was allowing the X-wing to get its R1 bonus at R2.

It is absoltuely natural that 4 rookies in X-Wings have no chance against 3 Tie Defenders.

Try 3 of the renowned pilots instead.

(Try to fly your Rookies with Proton Torpedos and Guidance Chips. Rookies move after Deltas, take a TL and fire all torps at one target. This should be enough to wreck a Defender. Now with 4 vs 2 you should be able to win this.)

Which is why I'm focusing on the torpedo alpha strike. The it's literally a dice off where 1 defender is worth 2 Xwings, whike keeping the point costs.

And finally it could be worth taking X-Wings with Proton Torpedos.

Defenders with the x7 title are most likely even more predictable then without the title.

This should help you to set up your alpha strike with 4 PT.

Even with slightly ill dice you should be able to destroy a Defender with focus + evade.

The average damage dealt is between 7,5 - 8 - not taking crits into consideration, which are very likely.

In this case Guidance Chips is your desired fix for X-Wings. And here you have it.

Another satisfied customer.

It is absoltuely natural that 4 rookies in X-Wings have no chance against 3 Tie Defenders.

Try 3 of the renowned pilots instead.

(Try to fly your Rookies with Proton Torpedos and Guidance Chips. Rookies move after Deltas, take a TL and fire all torps at one target. This should be enough to wreck a Defender. Now with 4 vs 2 you should be able to win this.)

Then the rookies are far far overcosted.

This is the point don't you understand?

Pretty much the only "budget ship" as i call them that isnt overcosted is the infamous u-boat contracted pilot. All the others feel too expensive for what they do without a pilot skill.

Really feel like the academy pilot should be 9pts and the basic shmuck x-wing should be 16-ish. The price hyke for such amazing pilot skills isnt really much of a hyke at all, its more of a preventative for spamming than anything else.

And finally it could be worth taking X-Wings with Proton Torpedos.

Defenders with the x7 title are most likely even more predictable then without the title.

This should help you to set up your alpha strike with 4 PT.

Even with slightly ill dice you should be able to destroy a Defender with focus + evade.

The average damage dealt is between 7,5 - 8 - not taking crits into consideration, which are very likely.

In this case Guidance Chips is your desired fix for X-Wings. And here you have it.

Another satisfied customer.

a fix is not making a 25 point ship viable in the joust. 3 defender x7 at 84 points would be an equal matchup (maybe equal...i have doubts) to 4 rookie with guidance and proton. That is still 16 points too many.

So, since you think guidance is the fix for the xwing... to make all things equal... the X should be reduced by 4 points each. I can live with a 17 pt rookie.

That's what you're saying, right?

And finally it could be worth taking X-Wings with Proton Torpedos.

Defenders with the x7 title are most likely even more predictable then without the title.

This should help you to set up your alpha strike with 4 PT.

Even with slightly ill dice you should be able to destroy a Defender with focus + evade.

The average damage dealt is between 7,5 - 8 - not taking crits into consideration, which are very likely.

In this case Guidance Chips is your desired fix for X-Wings. And here you have it.

Another satisfied customer.

a fix is not making a 25 point ship viable in the joust. 3 defender x7 at 84 points would be an equal matchup (maybe equal...i have doubts) to 4 rookie with guidance and proton. That is still 16 points too many.

So, since you think guidance is the fix for the xwing... to make all things equal... the X should be reduced by 4 points each. I can live with a 17 pt rookie.

That's what you're saying, right?

Thats what you are saying.

I am providing a solution how to beat 3 Defenders. Thats what I am saying.

And finally it could be worth taking X-Wings with Proton Torpedos.

Defenders with the x7 title are most likely even more predictable then without the title.

This should help you to set up your alpha strike with 4 PT.

Even with slightly ill dice you should be able to destroy a Defender with focus + evade.

The average damage dealt is between 7,5 - 8 - not taking crits into consideration, which are very likely.

In this case Guidance Chips is your desired fix for X-Wings. And here you have it.

Another satisfied customer.

a fix is not making a 25 point ship viable in the joust. 3 defender x7 at 84 points would be an equal matchup (maybe equal...i have doubts) to 4 rookie with guidance and proton. That is still 16 points too many.

So, since you think guidance is the fix for the xwing... to make all things equal... the X should be reduced by 4 points each. I can live with a 17 pt rookie.

That's what you're saying, right?

Thats what you are saying.

I am providing a solution how to beat 3 Defenders. Thats what I am saying.

meanwhile Dark curse kills you, because you're busy trying to kill the 3 defenders.