Let's get started.

Other tier lists in this series:

Imperial:

TIE Fighter

VT-49 Decimator

Firespray-31

TIE/FO

Rebel:

X-Wing

Rank SS is for pilots that are almost unbeatable, with highly specific counters that even then aren't sure things. With Rank SS pilots, a meta either uses them or uses the counter to them (if one exists), with no middle ground. If a pilot is Rank SS, then it needs to be nerfed ASAP. Whisper , prior to the TIE/Phantom nerf, is a perfect example of a Rank SS pilot. If a pilot breaks 20% of overall faction usage, it's a candidate for Rank SS.

Rank S is for pilots which are strong and consistent on their own, requiring little outside support to inflict damage and dodge it, and at an acceptable points cost. Darth Vader is a Rank S pilot; with good action economy, high PS, solid damage output (with ATC), and an EPT slot that's completely open he's always a good choice for a squadron. If a pilot breaks 10% of overall usage, it's possibly Rank S.

Rank A is for pilots that are pretty good and can function well enough on their own, but either have solid counters or well-known weaknesses. Omega Leader is an example of a Rank A pilot; while he's very strong one-on-one, his locked configuration, underwhelming damage output against anyone he hasn't target locked, and sheer reputation as a game finisher draws a lot of fire at him which he can't survive easily. If a pilot has at least 5% of overall usage, it may be Rank A.

Rank B is for pilots which are average - neither good or bad - and have downsides to match their upsides, need support to function well, OR are support themselves. Omicron Group Pilot is an example of a Rank B pilot; as the cheapest carrier of Emperor Palpatine he can swing a game in the player's favor but his low durability, terrible dial, and low PS make him vulnerable if used wrong - or if he's your final ship. If a pilot has more than 1% of overall usage then it's probably Rank B.

Rank C is for pilots that a competitive would use only for funsies; they may have highly specific uses but there are just better options to take. Kath Scarlett (Imperial) is an example of a Rank C pilot; while she has an interesting ability, it's so situational that it will rarely get used and she requires so many upgrade points to use when you could get a Decimator/Whisper for just a few points more or Vader/Palpshuttle for a few points less. Anywhere between 0.3% and 1% of usage gets into Rank C, unless...

Rank F is for "Failure" "Fix me" or "F 'em" depending on your point of view. There is never any reason to take these guys because they're strictly worse than almost anything else. Fel's Wrath is an example of a Rank F pilot; not only is it competing against Fel himself, a non-EPT TIE/IN whose ability only kicks in AFTER it's destroyed - assuming it even has an enemy in arc? Usually used lower than 0.2% of the time.

T-70s are considered by some to be one of the best general tools the Rebel Alliance has available. It's a perfect mix of agility, durability, firepower, and pilots that come in a wide range of abilities and price points, starting at the affordable Blue Squadron Novice to the excellent high PS Ace Poe Dameron. Costing 3 points more than the T-65, it comes packing the boost action, an improved dial, an additional shield, and the tech slot. The boost action allows the T-70 to finally participate in dogfights the way the T-65 could not, and as such, makes it a very useful all-rounder that had no significant flaws.

Rank SS:

None.

Rank S:

Poe Dameron(11.8%)

{VI, Predator, R2-D2, R5-P9, Autothrusters)

Sadly, Poe won't be S for long. List Juggler is showing a rapid decrease in usage of Poe, from 17% to 11% to 7% over the last 3 months. Only by averaging does Poe manage to reach above A Tier. I should also note real quick, that NO OTHER REBEL PILOT is S Tier, even by averaging. So when Poe dips into A Tier in the next month, the Rebel Alliance will have no S Tier pilots. Just something to be aware of.

Poe is a very consistent pilot. With his ability, regen, and autothrusters, it can make it nearly impossible to win against him late game. His primary failing is his offensive power, and his action dependency. Without a target lock, its really easy to whiff an attack with him, and the only way to get that is to have PTL, which Poe dislikes, or to have a support craft to give him actions. He can also be blocked, and that leaves him completely defenseless. Poe is powerful in the right hands, though. His squad needs to work with him every step of the way to get the most out of him, and to let him survive the longest, which can be difficult for newer players to pull off. Nonetheless, he's the perfect mix of offensive, defensive, and agile to make him a contender in the Ace meta.

however, with Tractor Beams now being something out there in the meta, Poe is going to see a lot less play, ESPECIALLY when Imperial Vets drops, since 3 hits on a T Beam roll is unavoidable for Poe, and after that, Poe is a dead man.

Rank A:

None.

Rank B:

Blue Squadron Novice(2.4%)

(R2 Astro, IA)

At such a relatively bargain cost, the Blue Squadron Novice was bound to see competitive play. Packing boost, TRolls, an extra shield, and IA, the Blue Squad Novice is a veritable little tank of a fighter. Just enough tools to survive a dogfight, with good durability and at exactly 25 points, these little ships have a lot of uses. Their use is actually slowly increasing over time, but not by a significant enough degree to make them potential candidates for A Tier.

Rank C:

Red Ace(0.7%)

(R2-D2, IA, Comm Relay)

Super tanky! An evade token, IA, and regen allows Red Ace to stay in play far, far longer than any normal T-70. Even IF you manage to breach her evade token, AND her regening shields, she can be assured at least a turn longer in play by ejecting R2-D2 to stay alive just a little bit longer. Unfortunately, she's a one-trick pilot. Her entire gimmick is that she survives a long time, not that she is inherently effective. Furthermore, her almost required loadout costs 36 points, a lot of points to spend on one PS6 T-70. This is another example of a pilot that's only as good as the player flying it. If you can't properly take advantage of her to take it home late-game, or even be useful at all, those 36 points will go to waste. She's only as good offensively as any other T-70, barring some kind of support ship.

Her use has steadily decreased over time, and i suspect it won't be long before she finds herself in F Tier. A couple months ago, she was a candidate for B Tier. Now... well, let's just say she won't be winning any tournaments any time soon.

Red Squadron Veteran(0.6%)

(PTL, R2 Astro, IA; Crackshot, R2 Astro, IA; basically whatever you need this ship to do)

Personally, i'm surprised the Red Squad Vet sees such little play. It's hanging in there consistently around the 0.5% mark. It's such a versatile, durable ship, able to be tooled to do whatever you want it to do. It's cost compared to other, potentially superior options may be the reasoning. It's 26 points base, and if you're not going to use the EPT slot, you might as well drop to a Blue Squad Novice. I dunno. I personally would rate it higher, but on an ethical, scientific level it would be wrong of me to rate it higher because of my feelings on the matter.

Ello Asty(0.4%)

(PTL, VI, BB-8, Autothrusters)

TBH, i'm not surprised here. Ello is fun, but his ability just can't match what's in the meta right now. It's basically as simple as that. He's also expensive for relatively little gain.

Rank F:

Blue Ace(0.0%)

(Who knows. I hear all the people that don't run him use R7-T1 or something.)

Yep, saw this from a mile away. Blue Ace is 27 points of "useless" wrapped up in an EPT-less, PS 5 package. Nobody can agree which astromech works best for him, his PS is too low to be useful with his ability, if he does use his ability he can't modify on attack or defense except by using afforementioned R7-T1, but even then that's 30 points of "What's the point of using this guy?" There are plenty of better options to Blue Ace, most of them cheaper. That's really depressing, because in a vacuum, that ability is 200ccs of complete awesome. it just so happened to go onto the worst possible template imaginable.

You left out red veterans. They are pretty awesome. Blue Vet wants r2-d6 and put on an EPT.

woah woah woah woah who stole iamfanboy's thread series?

And made it all white?

Anyway, I'll say what I said to fanboy: your assignment methodology is fundamentally wrong, and your assignments are also wrong. Any ship in a popular list is going to be bummed up in use by all the people who think copying a winning list means they win too, regardless of if they know how to use it or not.

woah woah woah woah who stole iamfanboy's thread series?

And made it all white?

Anyway, I'll say what I said to fanboy: your assignment methodology is fundamentally wrong, and your assignments are also wrong. Any ship in a popular list is going to be bummed up in use by all the people who think copying a winning list means they win too, regardless of if they know how to use it or not.

But that's not what i'm doing. I'm averaging the last 3 months of all play, AND what's made the cut in tournaments. You'll know what's good and bad when it either makes the cut or doesnt. Any joe shmo can copy a list, but that doesnt mean they're gonna win and make the cut. This has been planned for. At least, that's how I do it. i can't speak for iamfanboy on that.

woah woah woah woah who stole iamfanboy's thread series?

And made it all white?

Anyway, I'll say what I said to fanboy: your assignment methodology is fundamentally wrong, and your assignments are also wrong. Any ship in a popular list is going to be bummed up in use by all the people who think copying a winning list means they win too, regardless of if they know how to use it or not.

Again: This is just 'top cut' usage, the players who made the top 4, 8, or 16. Already that's a bar of people who actually KNOW how to use what they've got.

I keep saying this, and you keep insisting, "Oh, it's just followers, people who are playing what's popular..." without wanting to think about WHY it's popular. Call it market forces, natural selection, w/e, but when a ship makes the top 4 and consistently makes a lot of lists, that's because it's been tested thoroughly and found stable.

Though it being mostly white does make it harder to read for me, though. All that bold and underline serves a vital purpose to break up the text wall.

There is leeway for personal judgement, as well as wise words (instead of just "you got everything wrong!"), to influence the rankings. I've also been thinking if the last month should matter more than the ones before it, as it has the 'newest' toys to play with. Things like the Ghost and Jumpmasters haven't been around long enough to weight on a 'last three months' average (though by the time we get to them we'll have 2 months total of their use).

Though one other thing: perhaps include a list of links to previous tier projects, at least in the Rebel side? That way people who don't have much interest in THIS one might click over to another ship they want to know more about.

Well, as a much more accomplished collector than player, I appreciate this kind of review/rank system.

And I promise I won't expect it to hand me any victories.

I think Blue Ace is a little over looked. He's an awesome blocker and really hard to pin down for anybody moving before him. I've ran him with R2-D6 and Predator and was presently surprised about what he can do. Now I'm sure I can find better options for 31 points, but he is a lot of fun to fly.

woah woah woah woah who stole iamfanboy's thread series?

And made it all white?

Anyway, I'll say what I said to fanboy: your assignment methodology is fundamentally wrong, and your assignments are also wrong. Any ship in a popular list is going to be bummed up in use by all the people who think copying a winning list means they win too, regardless of if they know how to use it or not.

Again: This is just 'top cut' usage, the players who made the top 4, 8, or 16. Already that's a bar of people who actually KNOW how to use what they've got.

I keep saying this, and you keep insisting, "Oh, it's just followers, people who are playing what's popular..." without wanting to think about WHY it's popular. Call it market forces, natural selection, w/e, but when a ship makes the top 4 and consistently makes a lot of lists, that's because it's been tested thoroughly and found stable.

Though it being mostly white does make it harder to read for me, though. All that bold and underline serves a vital purpose to break up the text wall.

There is leeway for personal judgement, as well as wise words (instead of just "you got everything wrong!"), to influence the rankings. I've also been thinking if the last month should matter more than the ones before it, as it has the 'newest' toys to play with. Things like the Ghost and Jumpmasters haven't been around long enough to weight on a 'last three months' average (though by the time we get to them we'll have 2 months total of their use).

Though one other thing: perhaps include a list of links to previous tier projects, at least in the Rebel side? That way people who don't have much interest in THIS one might click over to another ship they want to know more about.

Oh yeah, sorry forgot about that.

I think Blue Ace is a little over looked. He's an awesome blocker and really hard to pin down for anybody moving before him. I've ran him with R2-D6 and Predator and was presently surprised about what he can do. Now I'm sure I can find better options for 31 points, but he is a lot of fun to fly.

I mean, maybe? But the meta data is pretty clear; Blue Ace isn't used whatsoever.

I keep saying this, and you keep insisting, "Oh, it's just followers, people who are playing what's popular..." without wanting to think about WHY it's popular. Call it market forces, natural selection, w/e, but when a ship makes the top 4 and consistently makes a lot of lists, that's because it's been tested thoroughly and found stable.

Oh, there's no doubt connection, good ships will do well. But to rank based on that is to treat other influencing factors as negligible. Therein lies the fundamental flaw in the methodology.

I keep saying this, and you keep insisting, "Oh, it's just followers, people who are playing what's popular..." without wanting to think about WHY it's popular. Call it market forces, natural selection, w/e, but when a ship makes the top 4 and consistently makes a lot of lists, that's because it's been tested thoroughly and found stable.

Oh, there's no doubt connection, good ships will do well. But to rank based on that is to treat other influencing factors as negligible. Therein lies the fundamental flaw in the methodology.

That's why I do prefer to take a somewhat looser tone with my own ranks, willing to bump something up or down based on if I, or someone else, think it's better than it's being given credit for.

A ranking system can't judge things like player ability, and oftentimes good players will take low-rank stuff to prove their ability - that's why I keep bringing up Dan Hibiki in my other threads - but at least here we've got hard numbers to start with thanks to List Juggler, and hard numbers that generally jibe with my own evaluation of pilots as they are now - not a year ago, not six months ago, but now.

When today becomes six months ago and new upgrades have moved the tiers around, then it's time to change where the pilots sit based on how they're being played and what they're being played with. Until then? Well, this tiering list was always going to be designed to be mobile.

One of the things I've noticed about the guys who comment on the tiers is that often they're basing their judgement based on what worked a long time ago - and may work again in the future, but does not work NOW. I honestly wonder what kind of firestorm I'll get when I put up the TIE/Phantom tier which basically boils down to, "Whisper's S, everyone else is trash C" because people have horrific memories of being torn apart by a 3 Sigma or Whisper+Echo list before the nerf came down. But the current meta basically says the most important thing for a Phantom is to be decloaked for as little time as possible - they're too much of glass cannons otherwise - and Whisper's bonus Focus in addition to high PS with ACD is far better than the other choices.

I honestly wonder what kind of firestorm I'll get when I put up the TIE/Phantom tier which basically boils down to, "Whisper's S, everyone else is trash C" because people have horrific memories of being torn apart by a 3 Sigma or Whisper+Echo list before the nerf came down. But the current meta basically says the most important thing for a Phantom is to be decloaked for as little time as possible - they're too much of glass cannons otherwise - and Whisper's bonus Focus in addition to high PS with ACD is far better than the other choices.

Whisper is the easiest phantom.

Power is only one factor in a ship's metagame popularity, ease is another. You can have ships that perform insanely well in the hands of an expert player but fail utterly when they're copied. These will not get high representation. Anything that "flies itself" is going to be popular.

I keep saying this, and you keep insisting, "Oh, it's just followers, people who are playing what's popular..." without wanting to think about WHY it's popular. Call it market forces, natural selection, w/e, but when a ship makes the top 4 and consistently makes a lot of lists, that's because it's been tested thoroughly and found stable.

Oh, there's no doubt connection, good ships will do well. But to rank based on that is to treat other influencing factors as negligible. Therein lies the fundamental flaw in the methodology.

This is realistically the only way to do this. Regardless what you believe about it, the fundamental driving force behind these tier lists is that we have hard data to back it up. It's a scientific, statistical process that is practically ranking pilots based on the entire fanbase's use of them. If there are clear trends that people aren't using a certain pilot, there's probably a very good reason why, and as such, that pilot is ranked lower.

The only other alternative is to subjectively rank each pilot, and that changes based on who is ranking it. As a Rebel player, i might rank some infuriating pilots as way higher than someone else, and that would be inaccurate to the tier list as a whole because of my bias.

This is what gets me about the many comments like "I don't think that Pilot X should be ranked so low. I've seen them being flown by Y with Z and they did really well." Because that is, inherently, ultra subjective, and reasonably doesn't change the result of the data. In fact, if that situation occurred at a tournament, and was recorded into List Juggler, the data has ALREADY TAKEN THAT GAME INTO ACCOUNT, and settled on the result anyways.

This is the best way to do this. Saying "Well it has this flaw, so why even bother doing it anyways?" Clearly there is an interest to see a tier list, it helps the devs tremendously by displaying what ships and pilots need the most help when they're designing fixes, it helps newer players understand at a glance what works and what doesn't, and they can know that it's relatively universal because it's backed up by global data.

You don't seem to understand the averaging principle. Each game will have a unique set of factors that influences the entire result. But the hundreds of tournaments and thousands of games that have been entered into List Juggler naturally sorts all of those influencing factors out through averaging to find a mean result. You are asserting the fallacy that this highly objective measuring system is falling prey to non-existent subjectiveness.

I honestly wonder what kind of firestorm I'll get when I put up the TIE/Phantom tier which basically boils down to, "Whisper's S, everyone else is trash C" because people have horrific memories of being torn apart by a 3 Sigma or Whisper+Echo list before the nerf came down. But the current meta basically says the most important thing for a Phantom is to be decloaked for as little time as possible - they're too much of glass cannons otherwise - and Whisper's bonus Focus in addition to high PS with ACD is far better than the other choices.

Whisper is the easiest phantom.

Power is only one factor in a ship's metagame popularity, ease is another. You can have ships that perform insanely well in the hands of an expert player but fail utterly when they're copied. These will not get high representation. Anything that "flies itself" is going to be popular.

Then what's the big deal? If a pilot is easy to fly, and gets results because of it, wouldnt that make it a good pilot that ranks high? If there are no downsides or large flaws in the use of a pilot, it's got a powerful ability, AND it's easy to use, i'd say that's a very high ranked pilot.

Either way, the system still works.

Or maybe we can mod the definition somewhere to say, Rank S is the easiest to use, and Rank C is the hardest to use - with Rank F being IMPOSSIBLE to use. Which is kind of how I was thinking of it anyway.

By that definition, Blue Ace isn't Rank F; there isn't something in his ability that is simply unusable or downright detrimental, it just... isn't being flown. The fact of better options doesn't make something Rank F, what makes something Rank F is a downright detriment, like Hobbie's ability meaning "Every time he gets stressed he has a 3/8 chance of taking damage instead." Damage is WORSE than stress, so his ability is a failure.

Or maybe we can mod the definition somewhere to say, Rank S is the easiest to use, and Rank C is the hardest to use - with Rank F being IMPOSSIBLE to use. Which is kind of how I was thinking of it anyway.

By that definition, Blue Ace isn't Rank F; there isn't something in his ability that is simply unusable or downright detrimental, it just... isn't being flown. The fact of better options doesn't make something Rank F, what makes something Rank F is a downright detriment, like Hobbie's ability meaning "Every time he gets stressed he has a 3/8 chance of taking damage instead." Damage is WORSE than stress, so his ability is a failure.

I would maintain that Blue Ace is very difficult to use. He lacks many usable options to properly take advantage of his ability, and is at too low of PS to even use that ability effectively at all, especially in a Ace-driven meta. If you try to bump his PS to 7, he still can't compete with most Aces and he can't get any additional actions. If you go with R7-T1, then you still suffer from PS problems, and your effectiveness rides entirely on the R7-T1 ability being triggerable.

Personally i'm not sold on a pilot's value being their ease of use. Some pilot's abilities can be easy to use or easy to activate, but in the meta that ability simply isnt effective. I would think that being easy to use is more of an advantage in that pilot's favor, NOT the entirety of their ranking, although i will admit there is a correlation.

Additionally, ease of use is a very subjective term, demonstrated very clearly: You would figure Blue Ace to be easier to use, and i disagreed with you on that immediately. Thus we cannot come to an agreement on ease of use, and as such the ranking becomes impossible. You cannot, however, argue with the numbers on ListJuggler that is available to everyone. That is why i will continue to make these threads following the same structure as we have been, because they are indicative of real standings.

The Rebellion has no S rank pilots?

With Tycho and Han I find that pretty hard to believe.

Blue ace is fun to fly, but like red ace and all the t65 unique pilots without EPT slot they suffer for it. Even if it was just a slot to use adaptability for a bump to their PS it would help people use these things.

The Rebellion has no S rank pilots?

With Tycho and Han I find that pretty hard to believe.

Han Solo is no longer an S, and is hardly even an A, by usage over the last few months. Which, when you think about it, makes sense - how does Fat Han beat mass TLTs? Or Palpaces? Or Rebel Regen, when one of the components is a PS10 Poe with AT? That isn't even touching on the new Alpha Strike meta.

Han Solo's popularity was strictly a response to TIE Phantoms - if you can't get an enemy in arc, the only solution is to not worry about arcs. If an enemy gets a big buff to agility AFTER it shoots, then shoot first. If an enemy relies on one or two ships for a big damage spike, then mitigate that big damage spike.

But right now? He's not the superman he used to be. He's still good - if Dengar for 1 point cheaper and 4 HP less is good, then he's good - but not the "Oh, well, I NEED this ship" he once was.

As far as Tycho goes... he's got under 1% of usage for top Rebel players.

The Rebellion has no S rank pilots?

With Tycho and Han I find that pretty hard to believe.

The Rebellion isn't in a great spot right now. Poe is on a sharp decline in usage, and i expect his S Tier status to disappear by May based on the current downward trend of his usage since February.

Compare that to the 2 S rank pilots the Empire possesses(Soontir and Vader, and i expect The Inquistor to join them by May if the current uptrend in his usage continues)

And the 4 S ranked pilots that Scum has(Syndicate Thug, Contracted Scout who hit 18% usage within the first 2 months, and IG 88B and C).

The regionals from yesterday kinda shows that rebels are fine and all this is subjective to metas and thus, a failed excerise. Do you honestly think something like this shows the devs what needs to be fixed? They have their own system in use for that. It's nice to see what's popular, but ranks won't work for something as fluid and meta driven as this game. Each local meta will skew this one way to another.

I just think it's flawed to equate popularity to power and furthermore to linearise power in a game that lacks such. Trying to create generally accepted tiers is just going to make netlisting and the groupthink worse, not better.

What we need are good guides for building balanced squads, not further encouragement for people to copy each other to the point until we have the same two lists going at it like we did in Wave 3.

Blue Ace with R7-T1 is an excellent generic hunter. Fly him right, making use of R7-T1 and his ability, and you can end up in R1 with a TL and out of arc of the generic you're targeting.

Leave the aces in your opponent's list to your own aces.

I just think it's flawed to equate popularity to power and furthermore to linearise power in a game that lacks such. Trying to create generally accepted tiers is just going to make netlisting and the groupthink worse, not better.

What we need are good guides for building balanced squads, not further encouragement for people to copy each other to the point until we have the same two lists going at it like we did in Wave 3.

You know, people said the exact same thing, word for word, about MathWing. And it never happened.

The regionals from yesterday kinda shows that rebels are fine and all this is subjective to metas and thus, a failed excerise. Do you honestly think something like this shows the devs what needs to be fixed? They have their own system in use for that. It's nice to see what's popular, but ranks won't work for something as fluid and meta driven as this game. Each local meta will skew this one way to another.

"Hey, this one single thing happened that went against the norm of statistical data, so clearly everything you've done is meaningless and you should stop because i said so."

That's what you just said.