One thing Paul Heaver mentioned in all of the discussions around ID was his view that modified wins should also go away. It should just be a normal win and a loss. I've not really heard anyone talking much about modified wins. What are your thoughts on this?

I also think it should be gone. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning.

Many years ago in a gaming magazine that is now defunct, there was a description of the Swiss system that claimed that it only worked if there were wins, draws and losses. Any "graduated victory" conditions decreased the utility of the system - which was originally developed for Chess apparently.

So I suppose you could do away with modified wins, and class them as draws. After all, winning by less than the cost of an Academy Pilot is hardly convincing.

I feel like there should be a larger draw range. 1 or 2 points difference in squad-building choices should not decide a game. Maybe if the game is within 9 points, it's a draw. 10 or more points is a win. Make the wins 3 points and the draws 1 point, like soccer and Magic.

Many years ago in a gaming magazine that is now defunct, there was a description of the Swiss system that claimed that it only worked if there were wins, draws and losses. Any "graduated victory" conditions decreased the utility of the system - which was originally developed for Chess apparently.

So I suppose you could do away with modified wins, and class them as draws. After all, winning by less than the cost of an Academy Pilot is hardly convincing.

So you mean like 2 points for a win, 1 point for a modified win, and 0 points for a loss? Or 3 for a win, 1 for a modified win, 0 for a loss?

Can't wait until modified wins are gone. A win is a win. Later, when we need to figure out who won better and more consistently, we'll look to MOV.

Either get rid of modified wins completely or award points to the loser as well.

I agree with Heaver

Forgive me Pao if I'm putting words in your mouth or this was someone else, but I believe he also said all matches should be worth the same points. Right now, a win is 5, modified win 3, tie 1, and loss 0.

So a win/loss result = 5 total points (5 winner, 0 loser).

Mod win = 3 points (3, 0).

Tie = 2 points (1, 1).

With many players playing many rounds, the results in terms of score can vary wildly. The following has been suggested multiple times, and evens out points for ALL match results:

Win/loss = 4 points winner, 0 loser

Mod win = 3 points winner, 1 point loser

Tie = 2 each

That way all matches are worth 4 total points, and you're encouraged to fight it out until the bitter end because a mod win is only 1 point away from full, and a mod loss (which doesn't currently exist) is at least worth something, not the same as a full loss.

I just logged in to write the exact same thing Obi

I would also expand the range of a mod and tie. Intentional draws SHOULD go away with this as well since there would be a much larger variance in the points scored

Some of our more prominent forum members with a heavy chess background would probably have some good feedback about this.

I just logged in to write the exact same thing Obi

I would also expand the range of a mod and tie. Intentional draws SHOULD go away with this as well since there would be a much larger variance in the points scored

Well in a perfect world there is just wins and losses.

The issue with modified wins counting almost as much as a win is that when someone gets an advantage, they can play defensively to go for the modified win.

I just logged in to write the exact same thing Obi

I would also expand the range of a mod and tie. Intentional draws SHOULD go away with this as well since there would be a much larger variance in the points scored

Well in a perfect world there is no tie, just wins, modified wins, and losses.

Issue is, I kill one tie fighter or z and then run away. I win.

I just logged in to write the exact same thing Obi

I would also expand the range of a mod and tie. Intentional draws SHOULD go away with this as well since there would be a much larger variance in the points scored

Well in a perfect world there is no tie, just wins, modified wins, and losses. Or just wins and losses.

The issue with modified wins counting almost as much as a win is that when someone gets an advantage, they can play defensively to go for the modified win.

I just logged in to write the exact same thing Obi

I would also expand the range of a mod and tie. Intentional draws SHOULD go away with this as well since there would be a much larger variance in the points scored

Well in a perfect world there is no tie, just wins, modified wins, and losses.

Issue is, I kill one tie fighter or z and then run away. I win.

I'd even say there should be MORE modified win sorts and even modified losses!

Maybe it's just me being a 40k player in the past but 20-point sum system is much much better for single matchups, because it allows to see if the player was wiped out and used as floor mop, or if the fight was even and players went nose-to-nose in the end

I just logged in to write the exact same thing Obi

I would also expand the range of a mod and tie. Intentional draws SHOULD go away with this as well since there would be a much larger variance in the points scored

Well in a perfect world there is no tie, just wins, modified wins, and losses.

Issue is, I kill one tie fighter or z and then run away. I win.

Ah, you caught me in an edit. **** you.

This is why I think if modified wins still exist, they need to be close to a loss. Something like: 3 points for a win, 1 for a modified win, 0 for a loss.

I just logged in to write the exact same thing Obi

I would also expand the range of a mod and tie. Intentional draws SHOULD go away with this as well since there would be a much larger variance in the points scored

Well in a perfect world there is no tie, just wins, modified wins, and losses.

Issue is, I kill one tie fighter or z and then run away. I win.

That is true now.

Bad example, but basically there is no incentive to continue fighting once you have an advantage at all. So you just build hyper tanky lists with one spike of damage. I come from war gaming like warpman. The answer to non combat and ids etc. isn't less results. It is more.

Forgive me Pao if I'm putting words in your mouth or this was someone else, but I believe he also said all matches should be worth the same points. Right now, a win is 5, modified win 3, tie 1, and loss 0.

So a win/loss result = 5 total points (5 winner, 0 loser).

Mod win = 3 points (3, 0).

Tie = 2 points (1, 1).

With many players playing many rounds, the results in terms of score can vary wildly. The following has been suggested multiple times, and evens out points for ALL match results:

Win/loss = 4 points winner, 0 loser

Mod win = 3 points winner, 1 point loser

Tie = 2 each

That way all matches are worth 4 total points, and you're encouraged to fight it out until the bitter end because a mod win is only 1 point away from full, and a mod loss (which doesn't currently exist) is at least worth something, not the same as a full loss.

If "Pao" is a nickname for Paul Heaver, that's not what he said. Well, he said matches should all have the same points, but followed that up with saying he doesn't like modified wins and he doesn't like draws. He thinks it should be a simple win or lose. In a draw, initiative determines winner. One point for a win, No points for a loss.

Here it is if you want to hear it (Paul starts at 24m)

https://youtu.be/lKMMV3n4bFs?t=24m

I think modified wins should go. Either fold them into draws (make draws something like less than 12 points difference), or better just make the game always have a winner or a loser.

Either get rid of modified wins completely or award points to the loser as well.

Seriously. It makes no sense to me that a modified win is a modified win but a modified loss is just a loss.

Modified Wins should go. For some reason we get all caught up in the arbitrary must win by 12 points thing, except in elimination rounds (you know the actual important part). Nobody has told someone that a win in elimination by less than 10 MoV "wasn't enough", but you get that stuff all the time in swiss. In my experience Modified Wins aren't slow games they are close evenly matched games (often with highly defensive ships), yet everyone currently gets penalised for a Mod Win.

Forgive me Pao if I'm putting words in your mouth or this was someone else, but I believe he also said all matches should be worth the same points. Right now, a win is 5, modified win 3, tie 1, and loss 0.

So a win/loss result = 5 total points (5 winner, 0 loser).

Mod win = 3 points (3, 0).

Tie = 2 points (1, 1).

With many players playing many rounds, the results in terms of score can vary wildly. The following has been suggested multiple times, and evens out points for ALL match results:

Win/loss = 4 points winner, 0 loser

Mod win = 3 points winner, 1 point loser

Tie = 2 each

That way all matches are worth 4 total points, and you're encouraged to fight it out until the bitter end because a mod win is only 1 point away from full, and a mod loss (which doesn't currently exist) is at least worth something, not the same as a full loss.

That was me on an earlier podcast.

Now that we have IDs, which will become common, you have to toss modified wins out the window. They shouldn't exist anymore as they are generally worth the same as a full loss now that there are IDs. Hopefully I can speak to this, and some other issues that haven't been brought up yet, on the next NOVA episode. Or we can wait a few weeks and wait until it inevitably happens anyway, and the internet gets the collective light bulb moment...

OR...we could get rid of both mod wins AND ties (MOV ties go to initiative just like in elimination). That would also solve that other issue that seems to be a hot topic of late. Win=1 point. Anything else but a win=0.

The modified win was based on not all ships being equal. So say a mirror match between TIE Swarms (4 academy 4 obsidian) and both sides scored 3 kills each but one got an obsidian instead of academy then it seems like the game was too close to call as a draw.

The one thing though is modified wins take out points from the system same for a draw. In both cases there are 3 points that go back to the swiss tournament.

Either way a loss is a loss and a modified win is a loss of 3 points and a draw cost 4 if you are starting at maximum potential and work your way down.