Ok, so I was having a back and forth text discussion with my Armada pal where I was trying to figure out a way to justify buying a third MC80

What we came up with (and subsequently bought a third one for) is some variation of this:

No squads

Garm

3x MC80 (cheap version) with Tractor Beams and Engine techs. Titles and upgrades to taste for remaining points.

It would be one of those fleets that likes to go second.

It would be quite poor vs squadron heavy fleets and would rely on Nav spam to try and engine tech run away from those.

Would attempt to use tractor beams to keep faster ships trying to encroach at arms length (pegging demolisher down to speed 1 and making sure to lose it the nav token) and basically spam nothing but Nav except on turn 4 and 6 where garm cookies would keep them trucking and con fire and engineering can be thrown to taste.

Goal would be to pick off a couple of targets, stay at arms length and live for a consistent win rate.

This has not been tested in any way, shape or form by me.

Obvious weaknesses are obvious (like in any min/max) but here is what I'm asking:

-What archetypes would this fleet work well against

-What objectives would you take, with the understanding that this is a fleet meant to go second so objectives are KEY

-What would you change to make it better OR what upgrades would you add in the narrow points window left

GO!

Me, I'd drop the Tractor Beams and take Redundant Shields instead - or Electronic Countermeasures. This is a fleet that was made for tanking.

The overall build would work great against slower fleets. I reckon that it would get devoured alive by large numbers of fast ships, even if you had Tractor Beams.

It would be interesting to see it go head-to-head with an Admiral Ackbar fleet. Not sure what would happen there.

Objectives?

"Advanced Gunnery" - Because, I mean, you pretty much have to.

"Contested Outpost" - Fleet Ambush would be awful, Hyperspace Assault gives you nothing. "Fire Lanes" could be good, but... Against Ackbar fleets, I reckon you'd prefer the Outpost.

"Minefields" - I guess? I dunno. Not "Intel Sweep". "Dangerous Territory" could be okay. "Superior positions" would be a poor choice.

The main change I would make to make it better is to not include any MC80s.

NOOOOO not engine techs! Where are you going to run to where everyone cant follow?

MC80 Command, Projection Experts, Tractor Beams, Cluster Bombs

MC80 Assualt - Garm, Lando, Projection Experts, Cluster Bombs

MC80 Command, Projection Experts, Tractor Beams, Cluster Bombs

400/400

Repair the crap out of everything, and kill those squadrons with Cluster Bombs and double AA fire. Wrecked. Dials - Nav, Nav, Eng, Eng, Eng, Eng

Advanced Gunnnery obviously. Contested Outpost or Fire Lanes, Both good. Its not like youre going anywhere. And finally the one you will actually be made to play, Minefields. Which sucks, but none of the blue objectives is a good choice.

As Ackbar dice dont count towards Fire Lanes points, this is a mute point. 3 MC80's can chuck those reds with the best of them.

"Fire Lanes" could be good, but... Against Ackbar fleets, I reckon you'd prefer the Outpost.

Any particular reason for this, since Ackbar does not effect who controls the Fire Lanes?

I've played a 2*ISD 1*VSD all the Tractor Beams fleet before. Let me tell you, when the Tractor Beam spam works it works. When it doesn't work, it really doesn't work. You won't be helping yourself much versus Gladiators as they'll be Navigating + Engine Teching a lot anyways and they LIKE being slowed down once they're within range to strike.

I would strongly consider going for Advanced Projectors on all of the MC80s instead. Advanced Projectors will save your bacon versus Demolisher shenanigans and with 3 MC80s + Ackbar you can probably slug it out with ISDs.

Any particular reason for this, since Ackbar does not effect who controls the Fire Lanes?

Yes, it's because your face smells.

In an attempt to account for my stupidity, then I suppose... I think Outpost works better because it's less of a swing if your opponent gets the upper hand. If you've got Fire Lanes, and you mill it for a stack of points in the first two turns, but by turn 3 your opponent has closed with enough dice to steal them off you (or you've Engine Tech'd your way out of arc of the objective tokens) your opponent could gain far more points in the latter few turns of the game.

Meanwhile, with an Outpost you can just cruise past it for a few turns, and if it all goes south, it's not quite so big a deal.

But, yes, basically Ackbar has no effect on Fire Lanes. My bad.

Ackbar doesn't effect Fire Lanes but MC80s are still superlative ships for locking down Fire Lanes tokens. I don't see a good reason not to include Fire Lanes in a fleet with MC80s unless you've got a really good reason to run another objective.

Of course my face smells.

That's where my Nose is.

It does the majority of the smelling, indeed.

But Clear Favoritism here...

Ginkapo Ninja'd me on that statement - he deserves an insult gesture too

Interesting ideas.

Not sure I like advanced projectors with XI7s pretty standard equipment.

Projection experts are utter garbage and so are cluster bombs. I still prefer the idea of engine techs, and I appreciate the feedback from snip about the tractors. I already figured it was one of those "50% of the time it works every time" things but I think when it comes to things like demo it is often the case that it will receive 1 round of long range fire before boosting in at effective speed 4 (unless at the helm of a real pro, or defender messes up) and at that same long range it can be stripped down to no token/speed 1 and pretty much kept to speed 2 while you are at an effective speed 3. So yeah, if you are up against a good to great demo pilot you are screwed either way but against the average demo pilot you are OK. Also you might just want to peg back raiders or corvettes so they cant swing out of the overlapping side arc threat area.

It might be an idea to go to ackbar, but that seems to make an already inflexible fleet into an even more inflexible fleet for a few more dice and a bunch more points...

Ginkapo's entire life is a self-insult, there's little I could contribute.

(I have literally no basis for saying that, I'm sure Ginkapo leads a very fulfilling life of contentment, but you asked me to share the love).

I've played a 2*ISD 1*VSD all the Tractor Beams fleet before. Let me tell you, when the Tractor Beam spam works it works. When it doesn't work, it really doesn't work. You won't be helping yourself much versus Gladiators as they'll be Navigating + Engine Teching a lot anyways and they LIKE being slowed down once they're within range to strike.

I would strongly consider going for Advanced Projectors on all of the MC80s instead. Advanced Projectors will save your bacon versus Demolisher shenanigans and with 3 MC80s + Ackbar you can probably slug it out with ISDs.

Snip, something else to consider RE TB spam in rebels V.s. Imps:

Imps want to front arc face you but MC80s want you in side arc hugs, the differing approach vectors make TB use different IMO

e.g. if I'm running an imp "all the tractors" fleet I can't imagine deploying anything but pointed at the meat of the enemy but MC80 will want to conga.

Still, I was a bit offput...

Trying to do better with my rules-stuff... - Rather than just saying "You are Wrong", I have been trying to phrase it in such a way as to ask the legitimate question - perhaps there was a reason for it that I hadn't seen... Perhaps it was in the maneuver and gameplay side of things... T'was a request for information, in case you'd seen something I hadn't seen...

ISD 1s and VSDs would suffer greatly, well run bomber fleets would eat this list alive...

In any case, its something new to try...but not at a tournament lol, I've learned my lesson RE experimenting in competitive environments.

Still, I was a bit offput...

Trying to do better with my rules-stuff... - Rather than just saying "You are Wrong", I have been trying to phrase it in such a way as to ask the legitimate question - perhaps there was a reason for it that I hadn't seen... Perhaps it was in the maneuver and gameplay side of things... T'was a request for information, in case you'd seen something I hadn't seen...

Not sure if you're responding to me, there? If so, I certainly didn't mean to be off-putting on this occasion, apologies. I'd made an obvious mistake, was trying to make light of it.

Not sure I like advanced projectors with XI7s pretty standard equipment.

It's somewhat meta-dependent, but one of the reasons 5-activation Imperial lists are eating people's lunches right now are because of the preponderance of Electronic Countermeasures (which are better vs. XI7s) instead of Advanced Projectors (which are better versus damage-heavy non-fancy approaches). I guess I figure if you're running 3 MC80s you can probably handle 2ISD or 3 Assault Frigate lists that tend to rely on XI7s through sheer firepower and durability. You are gonna have problems vs. some other approaches, though, and Advanced Projectors can help there. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Snip, something else to consider RE TB spam in rebels V.s. Imps:

Imps want to front arc face you but MC80s want you in side arc hugs, the differing approach vectors make TB use different IMO

e.g. if I'm running an imp "all the tractors" fleet I can't imagine deploying anything but pointed at the meat of the enemy but MC80 will want to conga.

That's entirely fair and thanks for bringing that up. That may make a substantial difference in use. I'd be curious to hear about how it works for you, then, as I've never seen it tried Rebel-side.

Go for the assault version, better AA, you can have ECM and AP on two of them, less fighter activations to pay for and not use....

Interesting ideas.

Not sure I like advanced projectors with XI7s pretty standard equipment.

Projection experts are utter garbage and so are cluster bombs. I still prefer the idea of engine techs, and I appreciate the feedback from snip about the tractors. I already figured it was one of those "50% of the time it works every time" things but I think when it comes to things like demo it is often the case that it will receive 1 round of long range fire before boosting in at effective speed 4 (unless at the helm of a real pro, or defender messes up) and at that same long range it can be stripped down to no token/speed 1 and pretty much kept to speed 2 while you are at an effective speed 3. So yeah, if you are up against a good to great demo pilot you are screwed either way but against the average demo pilot you are OK. Also you might just want to peg back raiders or corvettes so they cant swing out of the overlapping side arc threat area.

It might be an idea to go to ackbar, but that seems to make an already inflexible fleet into an even more inflexible fleet for a few more dice and a bunch more points...

You have redundant redirects, so take advanced projectors! Try it, the ECM logic comes from the assualt frigate. Not EVERY ship is going to be taking X17s so enjoy all the other shots.

Projection experts are garbage unless you preplanned on a command 3 ship permanent engineering.... in which case they are awesome.

Cluster bombs are extremelly effective agaisnt squadrons, try and fnd out. The double anti squadron and cluster and you will rip through any squadrons in a couple of turns. Cluster bombs take out the bracing ace pilots, the rest succumb to the sustained fire. Did someone say squadrons are the weakness with this list? Theyre not. The alternative is Ruthless Strategist and a couple of Y wings.

Look, I'm the worlds Biggest Fan of Cluster Bombs since I used them successfully once... But they're a deterrant to the lone squadron attacking you...

If you don't have them any everywhere, Squadrons will (rightly) attempt to hit your ships who don't have them...

Basic squadrons will try to soak up your Cluster Bombs before opening fire with any Unique Squadrons... For Example, Cluster Bombs will seriously impact a damaged Luke or Rhymer, but it will any X-Wing or Bomber... So you shoot the regulars first, hoping the enemy will use their Cluster Bombs on them... If they don't... Well, you just got shots at the enemy and they didn't use Cluster Bombs on them...

Clusters would feel a **** sight more worthwhile if they didn't have that pesky Discard this Card...

Definitely, if you're going to abuse Both Defensive Slots at the same time... ECM + AP. That's the way to go - best of both worlds...

Not sure I like advanced projectors with XI7s pretty standard equipment.

It's somewhat meta-dependent, but one of the reasons 5-activation Imperial lists are eating people's lunches right now are because of the preponderance of Electronic Countermeasures (which are better vs. XI7s) instead of Advanced Projectors (which are better versus damage-heavy non-fancy approaches). I guess I figure if you're running 3 MC80s you can probably handle 2ISD or 3 Assault Frigate lists that tend to rely on XI7s through sheer firepower and durability. You are gonna have problems vs. some other approaches, though, and Advanced Projectors can help there. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Snip, something else to consider RE TB spam in rebels V.s. Imps:

Imps want to front arc face you but MC80s want you in side arc hugs, the differing approach vectors make TB use different IMO

e.g. if I'm running an imp "all the tractors" fleet I can't imagine deploying anything but pointed at the meat of the enemy but MC80 will want to conga.

That's entirely fair and thanks for bringing that up. That may make a substantial difference in use. I'd be curious to hear about how it works for you, then, as I've never seen it tried Rebel-side.

On the top bit: indeed, that is a good point. My other option is to bring along defense liasons to use redundant garm tokens to switch commands to engineering. Replenishing shields (without depleting an ally like stupid projection experts) is a valid way to survive in conjunction with adv projectors. I haven't seen a lot of imperial spam in my meta, but again, I would likely never take this list to a tournament, because really....

Look, I'm the worlds Biggest Fan of Cluster Bombs since I used them successfully once... But they're a deterrant to the lone squadron attacking you...

If you don't have them anywhere, Squadrons will (rightly) attempt to hit your ships who don't have them...

Basic squadrons will try to soak up your Cluster Bombs before opening fire with any Unique Squadrons... For Example, Cluster Bombs will seriously impact a damaged Luke or Rhymer, but it will any X-Wing or Bomber... So you shoot the regulars first, hoping the enemy will use their Cluster Bombs on them... If they don't... Well, you just got shots at the enemy and they didn't use Cluster Bombs on them...

Clusters would feel a **** sight more worthwhile if they didn't have that pesky Discard this Card...

Definitely, if you're going to abuse Both Defensive Slots at the same time... ECM + AP. That's the way to go - best of both worlds...

Thanks for saying it so I didn't have to.

Some perspective: putting 2 cluster bombs on ships is the same points as Demolisher. Imagine if you had to discard demolisher after using it twice. (and it would still be better than cluster bombs).

If cluster bombs worked on ALL fighters in AS range those things would make a mountain more sense, and be super-cheap to boot.

Basic squadrons will try to soak up your Cluster Bombs before opening fire with any Unique Squadrons... For Example, Cluster Bombs will seriously impact a damaged Luke or Rhymer, but it will any X-Wing or Bomber... So you shoot the regulars first, hoping the enemy will use their Cluster Bombs on them... If they don't... Well, you just got shots at the enemy and they didn't use Cluster Bombs on them...

AND Rhymer etc did NOT shoot the MC80's. Is that not the ultimate defence?

Is it time to discuss the merits of nuclear armanent and deterents? I am sure there are enough Americans here to carry this argument for me. Prevention is better than a cure.

Basic squadrons will try to soak up your Cluster Bombs before opening fire with any Unique Squadrons... For Example, Cluster Bombs will seriously impact a damaged Luke or Rhymer, but it will any X-Wing or Bomber... So you shoot the regulars first, hoping the enemy will use their Cluster Bombs on them... If they don't... Well, you just got shots at the enemy and they didn't use Cluster Bombs on them...

AND Rhymer etc did NOT shoot the MC80's. Is that not the ultimate defence?

Is it time to discuss the merits of nuclear armanent and deterents? I am sure there are enough Americans here to carry this argument for me. Prevention is better than a cure.

... Not when 6 other TIE Bombers Did, but Rhymer Didn't...

... Not when a whole Fleet of Y-Wings got their Payload off because you were waiting on Luke, who went and shot his 4 Blues at Squadrons instead...

Like I said, I *love* them... I completely Surprised one opponent and killed Boba Fett because he wasn't prepared for it, and didn't believe I'd actually take them...

But they're Gimmikky... And they're only great at outright killing the light stuff, and only one thing at that...

I mean, it was the best 5 points I ever could have put on Gallant Haven for a few laughs... But honestly, APs or ECMs would have been better when the Ship Dice began to fly...

How about the much maligned Quad Laser Turrets? You'll be spewing out blues if attacked by a fighter swarm, along with your blue/black combo if you've opted for a Command cruiser. A lot of blues for only 5 points.