I know that someone who starts off as a EoE or AoR character and then takes one of the 2 universal specializations can then go into one of the F&D trees.
However can a F&D character take one of the 2 Universal force sensitive trees? If so would then then immediately get the extra force point?
Yes they may and no they wouldn't. You only get a FR if you don't already have one.
"However, when a character purchases this specialization, he automatically receives a Force rating of 1, if he did not already have it. If he already has a Force rating of 1 or higher, it does not increase. "
EoE CRB p. 276
Edited by 2P51Thanks
NP, njoy.
The Universal Force-Sensitive specs in EotE and AoR can be pretty decent add-ons for some Force and Destiny characters, even if they don't provide a boost to Force Rating for the reasons that 2P51 noted previously. Emergent is good to toughen up a PC that's a bit on the squishy side, while Exile is good to add some useful survive-on-the-fringe talents.
For instance, I had an Ataru Striker in a friend's (likely defunct) Dawn of Defiance campaign that took Force Emergent as his second spec for the ranks in Toughened and Grit (more wounds and more strain is something every Ataru Striker needs desperately) and avoiding the non-career spec XP cost since neither Hunter or Pathfinder really fit the character, as well as having a fairly inexpensive route to getting Force Rating 2 (handy for when I want to use Sense for a defense boost and still make use of Hawk-Bat Swoop and/or Saber Swarm). Only downside was no boost to his ranks of Parry or Reflect, but being able to take more of a hit thanks to a higher wound threshold and use what ranks in Parry/Reflect he does have without as much fear of burning through his strain helps offset that.
On this subject of F&D specs in comparison to the Universals, I really don't understand the logic in a narrative sense, why you have to take a Universal to get a Force rating, if you start in EotE or AoR. And to be honest, I don't get it from a mechanical standpoint either.
It just doesn't make sense to me. Is it because they feel it's a "shortcut" to having a Force Rating? Well, if that's the logic, how? It's no different from if you took Exile or Emergent, and get the FR 1 then. And it's not cheaper, in fact, it's 10 xp more compared to taking Exile or Emergent, since you get the "out of career" xp penalty for the purchase. The F&D trees are no more powerful compared to the Universals, so it's not a game balancing issue.
And the various F&D careers, aren't (at least all of them, saber talents excluded) specifically "Jedi" by default. They mention multiple times that these could easily be other Force traditions on other worlds, so it's not like your skipping any Jedi training that's exclusive to those careers, and there's nothing "Jedi-ish" about the Universals to explain why you would need to go through them.
So, yeah, I just really don't get the logic behind forcing (haha!) players to take an intermediary step, when functionally, there isn't really any difference in the Universals, versus the F&Ds. It's basically saying "You are going to suffer a 60 xp penalty (at least i think I did the math on that right) to take this F&D tree" 20 xp (if the Universal is your 2nd spec) + 40xp for the F&D (30xp for 3rd spec +10 xp for our of career). Seems excessive for no real logical reason to me.
I think you're thinking of the core books as supplements of each other rather than 3 different game lines that can be used together. F&D games focus specifically on Force users, so those characters need access to it from the beginning. They aren't specifically Jedi trees because the characters (barring occasional backstories of Padawans surviving Order 66) aren't strictly Jedi. In the other lines, the Force plays as much of a role as the characters and plot dictate. A character taking FS Emergent/Exile may well have been Force Sensitive all along (owing their unusual success to luck or exceptional skill) but once they take the specialization, the Force becomes a mechanically and narratively relevant aspect of the character. That the Universal trees synergize with F&D characters is incidental to them being good, well rounded trees.
On this subject of F&D specs in comparison to the Universals, I really don't understand the logic in a narrative sense, why you have to take a Universal to get a Force rating, if you start in EotE or AoR.
I can't really argue against your point, though I kind of like the RAW aesthetically. If you aren't a Force user from the start, the universals are a more generic way of introducing your character to the Force. They do a good job of representing an "awakening". The F&D careers might not be more "powerful", but they do tend to be more specific, and are more grounded in Force usage as if the character has always known their abilities.
Easy enough to hand-wave if you don't like it. I regularly give spec discounts. The additional spec surcharge is really there to help the GM
prevent people from bouncing around and picking up all the low-hanging fruit. If the players aren't doing that, there's no real point or need for the surcharge.
On this subject of F&D specs in comparison to the Universals, I really don't understand the logic in a narrative sense, why you have to take a Universal to get a Force rating, if you start in EotE or AoR.
If you view it in a linear way and as if xp was just a meta currency. I view xp as 'experience' the narrative, experiences, and 'points' as the mechanical housekeeping. As you have various experiences some of them simply "awakened" a latent nature that was always there....."you just have to let it in........"
On this subject of F&D specs in comparison to the Universals, I really don't understand the logic in a narrative sense, why you have to take a Universal to get a Force rating, if you start in EotE or AoR.
I can't really argue against your point, though I kind of like the RAW aesthetically. If you aren't a Force user from the start, the universals are a more generic way of introducing your character to the Force. They do a good job of representing an "awakening". The F&D careers might not be more "powerful", but they do tend to be more specific, and are more grounded in Force usage as if the character has always known their abilities.
Easy enough to hand-wave if you don't like it. I regularly give spec discounts. The additional spec surcharge is really there to help the GM
prevent people from bouncing around and picking up all the low-hanging fruit. If the players aren't doing that, there's no real point or need for the surcharge.
Oh I would hand wave that rule away at my table if it came up. It's not really a problem in that regard. I'm fine with house ruling it, I was just commenting on how it made no real sense to me, from a mechanic sense. It just seemed like an extra, unnecessary step without much real point.
As for the extra cost of adding new specs, I'm fine with the increasing cost, and even with the +10 for out of career. The issue was given how you have to go to get to F&D, and have a FR at the start, it basically makes the Exile/Emergent trees, mechanically a +20 xp cost on top of the normal cost. Assuming you don't actually want to invest in Exile/Emergent, and are simply using them so you can gain access to F&D with a FR.
There is a definite balance issue at this point. F&D characters pay a price for starting with a Force Rating. They have less skill points and start with less career skills. If you were to let somebody buy directly into a F&D career from one of the other games and receive a force point it would bypass that extra cost, and put the native F&D characters at a disadvantage.
To maintain a balance you must go through Exile or Emergent.
Edited by Split LightAlso aside from choosing one as a starting career/ Specializations, the F&D trees DO NOT give you an automatic Force point.
As Split Light noted, it's done largely as a balance reason.
The AoR and EotE careers get an extra starting skill rank and two additional career skills, where that Force Rating 1 that a FaD career provides is largely useless unless the PC spends even more of their starting XP to purchase Force powers. While that Force Rating 1 isn't super-useful early on, Force powers do get very useful as more XP in invested, with Sense's defensive traits being pretty **** awesome for a FR1 PC and only requiring 40 XP to max out, and rarely does a PC get hit with more than two separate attacks on a turn unless they've done something to seriously draw attention to themselves.
It's also done because AoR and EotE were designed to be used entirely separate from FaD, so that GMs who would prefer that the Force be a lesser element of their campaigns can easily do so, even to the extent of not having a single Force user in the group, or can even exclude Force users as PCs entirely if they so choose. In fact, one of the points that got a lot of folks intrigued with FFG's system was the fact that Force users in general and Jedi in particular were not an automatic option, and so GMs and players could very easily run campaigns where the Force was simply a fluff element and not something that had a direct impact on the story.
There is a definite balance issue at this point. F&D characters pay a price for starting with a Force Rating. They have less skill points and start with less career skills. If you were to let somebody buy directly into a F&D career from one of the other games and receive a force point it would bypass that extra cost, and put the native F&D characters at a disadvantage.
To maintain a balance you must go through Exile or Emergent.
You still have to spend 30xp (at least) to buy into any of those careers. 30 xp that could be spent to buy up several skills. How is this not a balancing agent for the EotE/AoR? I mean, that's a good enough "balancing" cost if you were going to any other career, careers that, by your own admission, give you more class skills.
There is a definite balance issue at this point. F&D characters pay a price for starting with a Force Rating. They have less skill points and start with less career skills. If you were to let somebody buy directly into a F&D career from one of the other games and receive a force point it would bypass that extra cost, and put the native F&D characters at a disadvantage.
To maintain a balance you must go through Exile or Emergent.
You still have to spend 30xp (at least) to buy into any of those careers. 30 xp that could be spent to buy up several skills. How is this not a balancing agent for the EotE/AoR? I mean, that's a good enough "balancing" cost if you were going to any other career, careers that, by your own admission, give you more class skills.
You get the same number of career skills from F&D specializations as you do from any other specialization, 4. You aren't losing any by starting in a non-F&D career/specialization, and then investing in a specialization from F&D. As a matter of fact, you'll have an extra 2 career skills by starting with a career outside of F&D, plus at creation you are getting 10xp worth of skill ranks for free( 4/2 from non-F&D, 3/1 from F&D). That knocks that 30xp you are talking about down to 20xp.
Honestly I don't know what the hangup here is. If you want to be a force character start with an F&D career. If you don't think the extra xp you pay to gain an F&D specialization is fair, hand wave the extra out-of-career xp cost. Honestly, you could make a really strong force sensitive character without ever buying any of the F&D specializations; just focus on the force powers and universal specializations. You'll end up only having to spend 50xp on getting those extra specializations and end with a force rating of 3(once you fill out the trees).
There is a definite balance issue at this point. F&D characters pay a price for starting with a Force Rating. They have less skill points and start with less career skills. If you were to let somebody buy directly into a F&D career from one of the other games and receive a force point it would bypass that extra cost, and put the native F&D characters at a disadvantage.
To maintain a balance you must go through Exile or Emergent.
You still have to spend 30xp (at least) to buy into any of those careers. 30 xp that could be spent to buy up several skills. How is this not a balancing agent for the EotE/AoR? I mean, that's a good enough "balancing" cost if you were going to any other career, careers that, by your own admission, give you more class skills.
You get the same number of career skills from F&D specializations as you do from any other specialization, 4. You aren't losing any by starting in a non-F&D career/specialization, and then investing in a specialization from F&D. As a matter of fact, you'll have an extra 2 career skills by starting with a career outside of F&D, plus at creation you are getting 10xp worth of skill ranks for free( 4/2 from non-F&D, 3/1 from F&D). That knocks that 30xp you are talking about down to 20xp.
Honestly I don't know what the hangup here is. If you want to be a force character start with an F&D career. If you don't think the extra xp you pay to gain an F&D specialization is fair, hand wave the extra out-of-career xp cost. Honestly, you could make a really strong force sensitive character without ever buying any of the F&D specializations; just focus on the force powers and universal specializations. You'll end up only having to spend 50xp on getting those extra specializations and end with a force rating of 3(once you fill out the trees).
As I stated above, I have no problem house ruling away the "You must get Exile/Emergent" rule, I'm simply discussing what I feel is an odd, and unnecessary quirk in the RAW, and why I think it doesn't need to be there.
There is a definite balance issue at this point. F&D characters pay a price for starting with a Force Rating. They have less skill points and start with less career skills. If you were to let somebody buy directly into a F&D career from one of the other games and receive a force point it would bypass that extra cost, and put the native F&D characters at a disadvantage.
To maintain a balance you must go through Exile or Emergent.
You still have to spend 30xp (at least) to buy into any of those careers. 30 xp that could be spent to buy up several skills. How is this not a balancing agent for the EotE/AoR? I mean, that's a good enough "balancing" cost if you were going to any other career, careers that, by your own admission, give you more class skills.
You get the same number of career skills from F&D specializations as you do from any other specialization, 4. You aren't losing any by starting in a non-F&D career/specialization, and then investing in a specialization from F&D. As a matter of fact, you'll have an extra 2 career skills by starting with a career outside of F&D, plus at creation you are getting 10xp worth of skill ranks for free( 4/2 from non-F&D, 3/1 from F&D). That knocks that 30xp you are talking about down to 20xp.
Honestly I don't know what the hangup here is. If you want to be a force character start with an F&D career. If you don't think the extra xp you pay to gain an F&D specialization is fair, hand wave the extra out-of-career xp cost. Honestly, you could make a really strong force sensitive character without ever buying any of the F&D specializations; just focus on the force powers and universal specializations. You'll end up only having to spend 50xp on getting those extra specializations and end with a force rating of 3(once you fill out the trees).
As I stated above, I have no problem house ruling away the "You must get Exile/Emergent" rule, I'm simply discussing what I feel is an odd, and unnecessary quirk in the RAW, and why I think it doesn't need to be there.
Fair enough, but I don't think most will agree with you for a good deal of reasons. There are pros and cons to both paths to getting force rating 1, and I can see how some might find RAW unbalanced, while others believe it works fine. If you are debating just to get others to see your way on this, I don't think it is going to turn out well.
Anywho, I apologize if I came across as rude, I was just truly perplexed as to the issue you were having.
Since you said you have no issue with house-ruling on this issue, another suggestion might be that, if you are starting in a non-F&D career and buying into a specialization from F&D, is that it still cost 30xp, but the 30 also buys you force rating 1. That way you completely bypass the universals, but you are still paying what you would normally pay for an out-of-career specialization.
Fair enough, but I don't think most will agree with you for a good deal of reasons. There are pros and cons to both paths to getting force rating 1, and I can see how some might find RAW unbalanced, while others believe it works fine. If you are debating just to get others to see your way on this, I don't think it is going to turn out well.
Anywho, I apologize if I came across as rude, I was just truly perplexed as to the issue you were having.
Since you said you have no issue with house-ruling on this issue, another suggestion might be that, if you are starting in a non-F&D career and buying into a specialization from F&D, is that it still cost 30xp, but the 30 also buys you force rating 1. That way you completely bypass the universals, but you are still paying what you would normally pay for an out-of-career specialization.
Oh I have no problem with spending the regular 30 xp that it would take to cross-spec. Perhaps I didn't word things well, my apologies. Let me clarify.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be any cost to cross-spec, just that the mandatory "must go through Universal" seems harsh.
Some have said that it's unfair to the F&D classes that start out, but I don't see how. Under the RAW, if you are EotE, or AoR, you must double-spec if you want a Force Rating. You can't just be an Exile or Emergent. So that's a mandatory 20 xp cost (assuming the Universal is your second spec. more if its 3rd+). The F&D doesn't spend that at all. They just pick a spec, and they've got an FR 1. Perhaps they have fewer class skills, but I haven't really seen that. They seem to be roughly the same, and regardless, nobody gets enough free ranks to level up all of them anyway. Between career skills, and spec skills, you are still roughly the same number of possible skills as the other classes. Maybe off by one or two, but there is some fluctuation in that within the EotE and AoR anyway. So this doesn't seem like A) A detriment to the F&D, or B) a balancing factor at all between game lines.
So let's say you have a character who doesn't want to buy anything in Exile/Emergent. It's simply a stepping stone over to the F&D that they want, that makes more sense for them. Now yes, "well just start F&D" fixes this problem. Sure, but for games that started before F&D came out, or someone that just finds the concept of starting out as a non-F&D career to make more sense for the background, but that the F&D also fits their concept, it seems unnecessary to add that extra step.
I dunno, I mean I see what people are saying, I just don't see how any "balance" is needed. If they take Exile/Emergent, they get zero new skills, but they get the Force. This is apparently "balanced" for an EotE and AoR. But somehow, since the F&D's get fewer skills, this is unfair? I would save 50xp (20 for Exile/Emergent, 30 for F&D) compared to them just to get the FR 1. That seems in excess of "balance".
Again, yes I can just hand wave this away, and I plan on it. It just puzzles me, as I don't really see any "deficiency" in the F&D classes compared to the others that must be accounted for in cross-specing. If anything I find the stuff the F&D classes can do early on, as well as having an FR 1, slightly OP in comparison. In fact many of them can do lots of the same things the non-F&D careers can (using the same Talents in fact). Awesome pilots, awesome mechanics, awesome fighters, etc. Plus, for far less xp, they get FR 1.
I dunno, I don't think that explanation actually clarified my point any further? But it's the best I can do to describe the issue. I know most disagree with me, and that's fine. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just seems an unnecessary extra step is all.
The biggest difference between an E/A character in the long run to a FaD character is the extra XP FaD characters have to spend on Force Powers. Let me explain... Many starting EotE and AoR characters will be happy to put majority of their starting XP into characteristics, with the 6 free skill ranks and the 1-2 from their species they probably want only a couple of talents. FaD characters on the other hand usually want a way to use that FR from the beginning, meaning they need to save extra XP for that, resulting in usually 1 characteristic that is lower than it otherwise would have been, a not insignificant difference.
As PC's advance the FaD ones have Force Powers as an extra option to spend on, so they typically get down the talent tree slower, with less skill ranks. Then there are the Talents themselves. FaD introduced a lot of new talents that require a Force Rating to function, but thats at the cost of the other talents in non-force trees, so typically the E/A trees are either much broader, covering more things, or are able to be incredibly focused having some very unique and powerful talents... i'm looking at you Gunslinger!
Lost where i was going!
Anyway i get your point that by requiring a PC to spend 20 xp to gain FR1, plus an increase of 10xp for any other specs later on, its a very steep cost, and really only worth doing if the PC is actually going to end up with lots of XP and be played for a long time. The benefits that come from the Exile and Emergent though are quite good;
So there are things there that benefit the player. You could house rule though that if the PC spends 20xp they gain FR1. they don't get a new spec, thus future specs don't get more expensive, but they also now have a limit of FR2 and 1 less dedication to gain unless they do actually go and get a 3rd spec.
The biggest difference between an E/A character in the long run to a FaD character is the extra XP FaD characters have to spend on Force Powers. Let me explain... Many starting EotE and AoR characters will be happy to put majority of their starting XP into characteristics, with the 6 free skill ranks and the 1-2 from their species they probably want only a couple of talents. FaD characters on the other hand usually want a way to use that FR from the beginning, meaning they need to save extra XP for that, resulting in usually 1 characteristic that is lower than it otherwise would have been, a not insignificant difference.
Actually, very few of my players creating FaD characters deviated from the norm of spending most of their XP on Characteristics. Force Powers can be purchased later with earned XP just as Skills and Talents whereas Characteristics still take Dedication just as in the other lines. Some of the characters actually do very little with their starting FR1 for quite some time.
The biggest difference between an E/A character in the long run to a FaD character is the extra XP FaD characters have to spend on Force Powers. Let me explain... Many starting EotE and AoR characters will be happy to put majority of their starting XP into characteristics, with the 6 free skill ranks and the 1-2 from their species they probably want only a couple of talents. FaD characters on the other hand usually want a way to use that FR from the beginning, meaning they need to save extra XP for that, resulting in usually 1 characteristic that is lower than it otherwise would have been, a not insignificant difference.
Actually, very few of my players creating FaD characters deviated from the norm of spending most of their XP on Characteristics. Force Powers can be purchased later with earned XP just as Skills and Talents whereas Characteristics still take Dedication just as in the other lines. Some of the characters actually do very little with their starting FR1 for quite some time.
See if I made an F&D character, I'd be highly tempted to make a Human( which I normally find a boring choice), since you'd have enough xp to level three characteristics to 3, and still have 20xp left over to spend on force powers and/or talents. You'd also get the two non-career skill ranks which would be helpful since you get fewer for free as an F&D character.
On a side note, this thread has got me thinking. I don't have a my book with me right now, so I can't check, but could a Edge or Age character choose a career from those books and instead of grabbing one of their careers, take a universal specialization instead? I'm assuming no, but I don't remember reading that you can't do it. Even though it would probably be a terrible idea since you'd be giving up 3 or 4 career skills from your specializations, it would save you the 20xp for buying it as your second specialization. Then you could grab one of the F&D specializations for 30xp and be good to go.
The biggest difference between an E/A character in the long run to a FaD character is the extra XP FaD characters have to spend on Force Powers. Let me explain... Many starting EotE and AoR characters will be happy to put majority of their starting XP into characteristics, with the 6 free skill ranks and the 1-2 from their species they probably want only a couple of talents. FaD characters on the other hand usually want a way to use that FR from the beginning, meaning they need to save extra XP for that, resulting in usually 1 characteristic that is lower than it otherwise would have been, a not insignificant difference.
Actually, very few of my players creating FaD characters deviated from the norm of spending most of their XP on Characteristics. Force Powers can be purchased later with earned XP just as Skills and Talents whereas Characteristics still take Dedication just as in the other lines. Some of the characters actually do very little with their starting FR1 for quite some time.
And that was kind of my point, they give up a rank in 1 skill and 2 career skills for that thing that they hardly use in the first 3-4 sessions! So its immediately showing the bigger trade offs that Force Users have to make.
On a side note, this thread has got me thinking. I don't have a my book with me right now, so I can't check, but could a Edge or Age character choose a career from those books and instead of grabbing one of their careers, take a universal specialization instead? I'm assuming no, but I don't remember reading that you can't do it. Even though it would probably be a terrible idea since you'd be giving up 3 or 4 career skills from your specializations, it would save you the 20xp for buying it as your second specialization. Then you could grab one of the F&D specializations for 30xp and be good to go.
No
So the solution to any group who desperately want to start out amazeballs is to give everyone 150(or 300!) xp post character creation, but then you loose the sense of character growth. so realy just accelerate the XP gain rate and everyone will be a bit happier and things come along sooner
So the solution to any group who desperately want to start out amazeballs is to give everyone 150(or 300!) xp post character creation, but then you loose the sense of character growth. so realy just accelerate the XP gain rate and everyone will be a bit happier and things come along sooner
This is what my group did - we started with standard starting characters and the GM just gave out larger chunks of XP for sessions early in the campaign than he currently is as we developed the characters' backstory, personalities, and how they fit into the group. We didn't start at "Knight-level" play, but we did take a shortcut.
So the solution to any group who desperately want to start out amazeballs is to give everyone 150(or 300!) xp post character creation, but then you loose the sense of character growth. so realy just accelerate the XP gain rate and everyone will be a bit happier and things come along sooner
This is what my group did - we started with standard starting characters and the GM just gave out larger chunks of XP for sessions early in the campaign than he currently is as we developed the characters' backstory, personalities, and how they fit into the group. We didn't start at "Knight-level" play, but we did take a shortcut.
Honestly i think Knight Level is for players experienced in this system, and its fine, but when your new to the system its so hard to actually know what you should be spending on.
On a side note, this thread has got me thinking. I don't have a my book with me right now, so I can't check, but could a Edge or Age character choose a career from those books and instead of grabbing one of their careers, take a universal specialization instead? I'm assuming no, but I don't remember reading that you can't do it. Even though it would probably be a terrible idea since you'd be giving up 3 or 4 career skills from your specializations, it would save you the 20xp for buying it as your second specialization. Then you could grab one of the F&D specializations for 30xp and be good to go.
Well, for starters - its an illegal move.
Even if it wasn't, you're giving up all your starting skill ranks, you're giving up half your career skills, you're giving up the Signature Ability and you're giving up buying other trees in your career for cheap. That would be a world class terrible idea.