Now squads that are either heavy by design or heavy by intell still engage enemy squadrons.

Chiraneau allows engaged squadrons to move up to 2" upon activation.

So this begs the question, if Chiraneau activates a squadron only engaged by heavy units, what speed can it move.....

(I know the answer but find it an amusing one)

Depends on if you use C-man or not.

To further on Gk's point.

The use of Admiral Chiraneau is optional, as are all upgrade Cards (Unless stated otherwise - usually by Cannot ) .

If you activate and are moving a Squadron that is Engaged by a Heavy fighter, you obviously do not use Admiral Chiraneau and move your full printed Speed.

If you activate and are moving a Squadron that is Enngaged by a Non-Heavy Squadron, then Chiraneau is the man for you if you want to move, but only Speed 2... (Or Speed 3 if its also on a Victory with Corruptor and you're a Bomber...)

Main point - Upgrade Cards are Optional (Denoted by the word 'Can') unless otherwise Stated (Generally by the word 'Cannot')...

Hey Guys; what have I missed about squadrons with HEAVY engaging other squadrons according to Ginkapo?

I mean - I'm still with the understanding that regular squads engage any squad (2 vs. GRIT) but that HEAVIES don't engage - so what does he mean by "now" ? Thanks in advance, Steiner

Hey Guys; what have I missed about squadrons with HEAVY engaging other squadrons according to Ginkapo?I mean - I'm still with the understanding that regular squads engage any squad (2 vs. GRIT) but that HEAVIES don't engage - so what does he mean by "now" ? Thanks in advance, Steiner

"Heavy: you do not prevent Engaged squadrons from attacking Ships or moving"

So it still causes engagement but doesn't have the Effect

clontroper - uh thanks - well call me stupid, but what is the point of distinction in saying that a HEAVY engages if the two effects of being engaged are exactly what a Heavy DOESN'T DO? To put it another way - I've always seen it as (and said) that a regular squadron can engage any squadron, but that a Heavy one CAN'T engage anything. In fact, from time to time I have wondered why they never made it more like an idea that ( being of the same class per se ) the only thing a Heavy could engage would have been another Heavy - I'm just saying that if they had it actually would have made sense.

Anyway, it's like a one way street - other things ( Raiders too ) engage them, but since they don't impart the effects of engagement the term itself doesn't actually apply to them. Am I just making an argument over a point of syntax, or have I missed something on one of the upgrade cards or what, that can change this? - that's what I meant about Ginkapo using the word "now".

I'll be checking the forum again on Friday - thanks - Steiner

clontroper - uh thanks - well call me stupid, but what is the point of distinction in saying that a HEAVY engages if the two effects of being engaged are exactly what a Heavy DOESN'T DO? To put it another way - I've always seen it as (and said) that a regular squadron can engage any squadron, but that a Heavy one CAN'T engage anything. In fact, from time to time I have wondered why they never made it more like an idea that ( being of the same class per se ) the only thing a Heavy could engage would have been another Heavy - I'm just saying that if they had it actually would have made sense.

Anyway, it's like a one way street - other things ( Raiders too ) engage them, but since they don't impart the effects of engagement the term itself doesn't actually apply to them. Am I just making an argument over a point of syntax, or have I missed something on one of the upgrade cards or what, that can change this? - that's what I meant about Ginkapo using the word "now".

I'll be checking the forum again on Friday - thanks - Steiner

I.e. Swarm allows you to reroll if the target is Engaged with a Heavy

Grit is also affected as a Squadron with Grit cannot move if it is Engaged by 1 heavy and 1 non heavy (hence engaged by 2 squads)

Also Heavy Escorts work, I.e. a x-wing at distance 1 of dengar stills prevents shots at any other squads even though he is Heavy because he still Engages them (if heavy didn't engage it would negate Escort and mean Bye Bye Jan!)

Another example (because I can) Soontir fel still Applies his damage when he is Heavy, and would not if it negated engagement (like obstructions do)

Add i that if a heavy is not engaged, what prevents the heavy unit moving?

Not quite what I expected when I asked the question, but glad to see something useful came out of it.

WOW - Clontroper, I'm afraid I have to ask this - Are your examples ratified by FFG, or are they your (and perhaps other players) assumptions? I honestly don't mean to offend you, but a short time ago I was on a forum reading about the "Grit situation". In short - there was back and forth, but when the player who had brought it up "stuck to his guns" the others seemed to start to (re)question it themselves.

One of them then said that maybe FFG needed to make a ruling on it!

Of course, what I'm getting at is that (at face value) if there are still questions out there - and I do vaguely recall at least a couple of others - that don't have official rulings yet, then these situations are still nothing more than "preference point of view". BTW - I totally agree about obstructions, since that was stated in black and white - so there's no question about it. Again though, when I read a statement that indicates (again, at face value) that a question or questions still need official answers - after all this time - then it's really got to make you wonder! Also, again, I mean no offense; perhaps you could set me straight on what the rulings are on some of these points - especially since they're all interrelated.

This should be interesting - I'll try to pop back on tomorrow, even though it would usually be Monday.

Take care and thanks, Steiner

They are as Ratified as it can be. If someone had read the entirety of all of the forum posts on the subjects, they'd understand...

... But I'd also understand that its, these days, almost impossible to do just that, as a lot of the forum posts came in, got an answer, and have been swallowed by the bellows...

In short, from the collected rules that we have:

1) You are either "Engaged" or "Not Engaged".

Nominally, if you are within Distance 1 of an Enemy Squadron, you are Engaged with that Squadron. You cannot Move, and you cannot shoot at ships."

2) "Heavy" on the enemy squadron allows you to ignore the restriction about "You cannot move, and you cannot shoot at ships" restriction .

Nowhere does "Heavy" say that you are Not Engaged. Ergo, you are still Engaged .

3) Swarm states that you are attacking a Squadron who is Engaged by someone else , then you may reroll one die against them.

The only triggers for this are that you have Swarm, and your Enemy is Engaged by Someone else... As we have established that Heavy does not change wether you are Engaged or not (Only the restrictions)... You can Engage with a heavy Squadron and still have someone else get their Swarm Reroll.

4) Escort says that, if you are shooting at Squadrons, you must shoot at an Escort Squadron.

Note that it says if you are Shooting at Squadrons. If you have a rule (such as heavy) that removes the restriction that you must shoot at an engaging squadron, you can shoot at ships... However, if you do choose (as it is a choice) to shoot at Squadrons, it must be a Heavy An Escort Squadron.

5) The FAQ has stated that, if you are only engaged by Instigator, then you cannot shoot at Squadrons, as those squadrons do not exist, you are freed from the Restriction on must shoot squadrons, and thus, are allowed to Shoot at ships .

The FAQ then also goes on to say that if you are Engaged by a Heavy squadron, as well as Instigator, then you still have no restriction that you must shoot at Squadrons. Shooting at Squadrons are a Choice ... However, if you do shoot at Squadrons, you must shoot at any Escort squadrons as per the Escort rule, and under (almost) no Circumstances, have you been freed from the "You Cannot Move." restriction of Engagement.

Clontroper5's answers are correct.

The problem with Grit is a lot of people totally misunderstand the rule. They think Grit says "this squadron can ignore one enemy squadron for movement purposes," in which case engaging a Grit squadron with an enemy Heavy and non-Heavy squadron means the Grit squadron ignores the non-Heavy and makes a clean getaway as the Heavy squadron just watches helplessly.

Unfortunately, that is not at all how Grit works. Grit says "you are not prevented from moving when you are engaged by only 1 squadron." The moment you are engaged by 2 or more squadrons, Grit turns off. It doesn't matter if those squadrons are Heavy or not. Now if you're engaged by only Heavy squadrons you can still make a getaway due to them all being Heavy, of course, but not due to Grit. As soon as one of them is non-Heavy, though, you're stuck.

Similarly, as has already been stated, Heavy squadrons still engage other squadrons normally, Heavy just means the downsides of engagement (not being able to move, being forced to attack a squadron if possible) are removed ("you do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving"). So therefore Heavy squadrons still work to help trigger Swarm (as they're still engaging) and if you choose to attack a squadron when engaged only by Heavy squadrons (note: you could have chosen to attack a ship, mind you) , you'll need to attack the Escort squadron that's engaging you if possible ("squadrons you are engaged with cannot attack squadrons without Escort unless performing a Counter attack").

It should be noted the Grit question is answered in the current FAQ on page 4.

Otherwise, this isn't really an FAQ matter so much as it's a "reading the wording on the cards carefully" matter. People can misremember how keywords work and then apply them inconsistently with the rules, which causes confusion.

Also note, that cheating on your fiance because "she's heavy" is not going to work either. You're engaged dude.

Also to Ginkapo - whether it's right or wrong, I think you missed my "point". What I was trying to say was that a regular squad would (trap) engage the Heavy, but the Heavy would NOT (trap) engage a regular one. That is what I meant when I referred to it as a "one way street". From a pure mechanics POV, since a Heavy is incapable of (trapping) engaging an enemy squadron, then by the same reasoning (based on mechanics)the swarm tactic wouldn't apply because the "target squadron" is not [trapped / engaged] by the Heavy.

I'm looking at it from a POV that just like you need to have the right combo of upgrades and crews and/or officers etc. to get a desired result, you also need to have the right combo of squadrons likewise.

The last thing I'll say for now is to pose this: If Heavy squadrons lack the ability of regular kinds of squadrons to (trap) enemies into combat [waiting for friends to arrive] then how can they be considered to have engaged them? - and more so, what was the point in bothering to even have a designation of Heavy? I often think that like many other ideas, they just didn't take the time to think it out properly, so when something new comes out the rules just kind of get "fudged together" - like this - where a Heavy doesn't have the [mechanics] abilities of engaging, but somehow still do it (sort of anyway) - give me a break!

That's it for now - take care as well, Steiner

You're assigning criticism where it should not exist.

In fact, the whole point of Engagement is "That Squadron is There... We're worried about those guys..."

Say, you're in an X-Wing Squadron...

A Group of TIE Bombers bearing down on you isn't that big of a deal... They're not great in a Dogfight... You can completely ignore them safe in the fact that you can get away from them... (Heavy)... But you know they're there, and you're keeping an eye on them just in case you need to break off or attack them... (Engaged)

Then out of the Sun comes a group of Interceptors... Now you've got to Split your Attention... Because the Interceptors come right at you and pose a real threat, but just because you're tangling with Interceptors, doesn't mean you can FORGET the TIE Bombers... In fact, the TIE Bombers are such a distraction that the Interceptors have an Easier time of it, because your attention is split... (Swarm).

Its not a mistake.

Its a Design feature.

If heavy was to mean "You cannot Engage." Then it would say "It cannot Engage."

Just because you're slow and Sluggish, doesn't mean that, in the Dynamic World that we're representing, enans you can "always" be ignored... Just Ignored in isolation .

(And for the futher addition)

Jan Ors is nearby, and she's let you know the Interceptors are coming in, and she's programmed your Autopilots to let you break from that battle and start an attack run on a nearby ship... (Intel)

But your attention is still split in the Meantime... Because until you get away , the threat is there...

Consider Engagement a Threat , and you're there.

If, after this explanation, you still have doubts... Then by all means , submit the Question to the FFG forums, as you obviously believe it is a mistake... If it comes back and you are correct , then by all means, I will stand corrected on the matter...

However, it would fly in the face of the answers that we have already gotten... Those answers are available here and in other threads - all you have to do is search for him. I feel that the onus is on you to disprove what we have said now, as the FAQ supports our position.

Also note, that cheating on your fiance because "she's heavy" is not going to work either. You're engaged dude.

Consider Engagement a Threat , and you're there.

You said it not me.

I did consider adding:

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Quod Erat Demonstrandum....

Because even Philosophers like to say "*****, PLEASE!"

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You gotta love the responses that boil down to: "well okay maybe you actually know how the rules work, but the version I put together in my head erroneously just makes more sense to me and so I'm going to fight you."

Well, thanks A LOT to you all! And Dras, it's been a while since I bothered you for your help - thanks!

OK - at this point I accept all that you guys have told me, although I was surprised about HAVING to shoot at a Heavy dealing with escort - must have missed that one somehow. This all makes for a fair amount of reassessing, but it does make me feel a lot better about the game overall - where for a while I was becoming a little more doubtful as time went on. Hey it's a beautiful looking game and you can't help but to want to love it!

Sorry about #13 - I'm a slow at typing - and I love Ginkapos' analogy to being engaged to a Heavy fiancé! I'm looking over at a set up on my two 3'x4' felt covered starfields - 3'x6' area bordered with red and blue for cards, etc., - and want to get that battle going real soon, with all the new info in mind! I do seem to recall that someone told me a while ago that I might be taking things a little too seriously and trying to see things too realistically - maybe so!

My best to you all, and many thanks! I'm going to have something to eat, and then I'm going to be a bad boy for putting off Armada just a little longer - I'm going to do my first set up of Rebellion tonight! Steiner

4) Escort says that, if you are shooting at Squadrons, you must shoot at an Escort Squadron.

Note that it says if you are Shooting at Squadrons. If you have a rule (such as heavy) that removes the restriction that you must shoot at an engaging squadron, you can shoot at ships... However, if you do choose (as it is a choice) to shoot at Squadrons, it must be a Heavy Squadron.

I think Dras may have written this wrong. You never have to shoot at Heavy squadrons, unless they are the only squadrons around AND you have already decided to shoot squadrons.

4) Escort says that, if you are shooting at Squadrons, you must shoot at an Escort Squadron.

Note that it says if you are Shooting at Squadrons. If you have a rule (such as heavy) that removes the restriction that you must shoot at an engaging squadron, you can shoot at ships... However, if you do choose (as it is a choice) to shoot at Squadrons, it must be a Heavy Squadron.

I think Dras may have written this wrong. You never have to shoot at Heavy squadrons, unless they are the only squadrons around AND you have already decided to shoot squadrons.

If you decide to shoot at Squadrons, and one of the Squadrons is Escort , then that's the Squadron you Shoot, regardless of Heavy or Not.

Because Heavy does not Override Escort.

You have the choice to shoot at Squadrons or at Ships, if everyone is heavy,... But if you choose "Squadrons". Then Escort kicks in.

Escort does not kick in before that Point.

4) Escort says that, if you are shooting at Squadrons, you must shoot at an Escort Squadron.

Note that it says if you are Shooting at Squadrons. If you have a rule (such as heavy) that removes the restriction that you must shoot at an engaging squadron, you can shoot at ships... However, if you do choose (as it is a choice) to shoot at Squadrons, it must be a Heavy Squadron.

I think Dras may have written this wrong. You never have to shoot at Heavy squadrons, unless they are the only squadrons around AND you have already decided to shoot squadrons.

If you decide to shoot at Squadrons, and one of the Squadrons is Escort , then that's the Squadron you Shoot, regardless of Heavy or Not.

Because Heavy does not Override Escort.

You have the choice to shoot at Squadrons or at Ships, if everyone is heavy,... But if you choose "Squadrons". Then Escort kicks in.

Escort does not kick in before that Point.

It says" to shoot at Squadrons, it must be a Heavy Squadron"

You know instead of "escort"

See, I make mistakes when I'm typing bunches

But its fixed now... (And struck out, so I'm admitting it, too!)