Here's the thing, if you're defining tiers by tournament success, there's no need for explanation or discussion, a tier just represents a number. If you're defining tiers by qualitative values, such as the ones you define in the original post, then tournament success is less important, and some would say unimportant.

For Night Beast I think you should always consider having the Twin Ion Engine MK.2 on to increase the green banks options. It's only one point if you want to run Beast might as well take advantage of it.

I think this will be a great way to spark conversation on the forums, and as such I totally support it. I think the tier system works on a magical combination of objective and subjective data, which is where the fun discussion comes from. Does the pilot show up in tournaments? Hard to dispute those numbers. Is the pilot self sufficient, or integral to a strong build? Therein lies the debate.

When I first read through I was flabberghasted at the obsidian being an F "FFG FIX NOW!" level, but if I have 14 points left, I'll go for an academy and an init bid for my other pilots most likely. 15 and cracksquadron is the choice. The fact that the game is changing all the time, and the tier system is derived from current events, it isn't like the OSP is doomed to be a failure, it is just means that right now the ship has a minimal effect on the game.

And every PS1 and 2 in the game. They get simultaneous fire with U-boats too.

but if I have 14 points left, I'll go for an academy and an init bid for my other pilots most likely. 15 and cracksquadron is the choice.

I think that's the problem. If you're looking at Obsidian Squadron, it's often hard to justify not taking Black Squadron who'd shoot before the jumpmaster or sigma squadron.

To be honest, it's an issue with the ships with multiple 'tiers' of generic pilot. Avenger Squadron pilots, Obsidian Squadron Pilots and Zeta Squadron Pilots fall into a bit of a gap where you've invested a bit in pilot skill - which can easily mean quite a lot when spreading a point a ship over a small swarm - but not enough to beat the PS4 generics (who do turn up, especially on ships where they get elite pilot talents)

Wampa can manage without Palpatine if you don't want to take him. A Targeting Computer for 2 points does substantially increase his effectiveness - remember you can reroll hits as well as blanks and focuses looking for that magical single crit. Looked at as a 16 point standalone, he holds well with Backstabber and Dark Curse.

Dark Curse is at least a B

At the same time, an Obsidian or Avenger can potentially block U-boats and still fire before being destroyed by U-boats. It's a non-trivial advantage, it gains some Predator resistance, and it's not a huge point investment. It's one of those things that really depends on he rest of your squad.

If you make one weapon out of tempered steel parts, the other out of balsa wood parts, and swing them out each other, which one wins?

Not how it works. It's more daggers versus pieces of a gun.

From what I've been able to gather, the Tier system is getting people miffed because they seem to read what the OP wrote as 1 - 2 - 3. Sadly, it's not written that simply in the post. The tiers of this list seem to be based on what the pilot is used for. In this case:

Rank S is good to throw into any list as a solid piece of power and survivability
Rank A is good to throw into a list that might have other bigger things going on for it.
Rank B Is good to throw into a list that works with it's ability to make it a strong piece, and has the ability to work in many lists.
Rank C is an okay choice, why not throw it in if you have nothing else?
Rank F is the please fix.

Now, I do believe Obsidian Squadron Pilot should be in the Niche of C because as stated above, it's an initiative bid Academy pilot, and there's nothing more niche but useful than that. It's inclusion into F seems like personal feelings mixed with it's current life in the meta.

If you are to make this Tier list, possibly showing the base number data of usage first in a tier then showing what role a ship might play in your Rank system could help new players or interested players compare data. I know some might even come here to look to see what isn't played in an attempt to be different and have a lesser played ship in their list.

Just a suggestion for the OP.

As a suggestion for the posters: Don't post to your fellow posters like they are stupid children, respect a conversation with them like they are equals in age and understanding so you can have a civil and respectful discussion. Be excellent to eachother.

Dark Curse is at least a B

Usage stats do justify him being at B - he had as much usage as Backstabber, Mithel, and Scourge. I just don't see the sense in using him when I could be using an attack-buffing TIE.Maybe you can explain why?

Wampa can manage without Palpatine if you don't want to take him. A Targeting Computer for 2 points does substantially increase his effectiveness - remember you can reroll hits as well as blanks and focuses looking for that magical single crit. Looked at as a 16 point standalone, he holds well with Backstabber and Dark Curse.

That's... pretty brilliant, actually. It raises his chance of triggering to something like 40%.

From what I've been able to gather, the Tier system is getting people miffed because they seem to read what the OP wrote as 1 - 2 - 3. Sadly, it's not written that simply in the post. The tiers of this list seem to be based on what the pilot is used for. In this case:

Rank S is good to throw into any list as a solid piece of power and survivability

Rank A is good to throw into a list that might have other bigger things going on for it.

Rank B Is good to throw into a list that works with it's ability to make it a strong piece, and has the ability to work in many lists.

Rank C is an okay choice, why not throw it in if you have nothing else?

Rank F is the please fix.

Now, I do believe Obsidian Squadron Pilot should be in the Niche of C because as stated above, it's an initiative bid Academy pilot, and there's nothing more niche but useful than that. It's inclusion into F seems like personal feelings mixed with it's current life in the meta.

If you are to make this Tier list, possibly showing the base number data of usage first in a tier then showing what role a ship might play in your Rank system could help new players or interested players compare data. I know some might even come here to look to see what isn't played in an attempt to be different and have a lesser played ship in their list.

Yeah, I can see that about OSP - I'll bump it up to C and write that the main problem with it at the moment is that it has notthing to initiative bid against . Rank F should be reserved for stuff which is broken and unusable but can be fixed (like Jek Porkins), or stuff that's so overcosted it SHOULDN'T be used (like Outer Rim Smuggler or Imperial Boba).

I can open the usage file and add the average usage over the last few months to each entry's header - it's so tedious clicking away nonrelevant results that I wrote them down elsewhere.

The main thing is that it'll be by total usage of that particular pilot, as very few pilots make an impact enough to actually be SEEN as a total of Imperial points. Vader, Rear Admiral Chiraneau, Wampa...

Though I may finish up the Decimator Tier List first.

Dark Curse removes the two most common ways of modifying dice against him. Unmodified attack dice can be a pain to use against 3 AGI.

Dark Curse removes the two most common ways of modifying dice against him. Unmodified attack dice can be a pain to use against 3 AGI.

...Yes, he can live through attacks. Then he throws 2-3 Dice without Crackshot, and probably unmodified too if you had to spend your focus token.

Basically, he's easily ignored and saved for last - unlike Wampa who draws fire like no one's business, Backstabber/Scourge who throw a lot of dice for super-cheap, Howlrunner who makes everyone around her a threat, or the CrackBlacks who can punch through high AGI and tokens in a big swarm.

Or in a broader context, compare him and Omega Leader. Yes, OL is worse defensively than Dark Curse, but he's such a late-game threat for his mere 26 points that if they focus fire on him, it lets the rest of your list run rampant; if they leave him alone they run the risk of letting OL perform his magic. There's no such choice with Dark Curse. Ignored, he does as much damage as an Academy Pilot, so why not save him for later anyway?

Also, DC doesn't prevent the enemy from spending THEIR tokens defensively, and the odds are in favor of green dice failing DC sooner rather than later.

I mean, yes, his usage stats do indicate he's being used as much as Backstabber/Scourge/Mithel, but he just looks like such a wet cracker that I find it hard to put him anywhere BUT C.

He's defensive, but reliable offense is what wins games.

DC is the most survivable Tie Fighter. He gives the opponent a hard choice selecting targets.

Usually, if the opponent have focus tokens, they attack a different ship if possible; if don't they attack DC.

And so DC is able to split fire - if you play him effectively.

DC is still the best way to spend 16 points. He is the first choice for a single Tie Fighter.

Just want to comment on 2 things in the original post:

it's statistically better than having another dice, and works on any friendly ship except herself.

Not sure how you got that, rolling 1 more die is statiscally better than being able to reroll a die.

Marksmanship: Yes. A buffed Focus action that gives Crits? About the best general option.

This is possibly one of the worst options (except if you're running wampa) due to the loss of the defensive value of the focus action. Naked green dices are just to unreliable.

Other than that I would personally put the academy pilot in the A category : it's basically the measuring stick for all other ships in the game. If you're not playing an academy, you'd better have a good reason.

I feel as though an argument can be made for Dark Curse + SD At rank B. its 19 points, but if you thought it was hard for un modded dice to hit 3 imagine what it would be to hit 4!

I've been thinking about this thread for a couple of days, and I've come to the conclusion that I don't understand what it's for . Are there a lot of people who need a reference list to determine whether Howlrunner is good, or that they should probably pass on Winged Gundark?

DC is the most survivable Tie Fighter. He gives the opponent a hard choice selecting targets.

Usually, if the opponent have focus tokens, they attack a different ship if possible; if don't they attack DC.

And so DC is able to split fire - if you play him effectively.

DC is still the best way to spend 16 points. He is the first choice for a single Tie Fighter.

Really? This is how he works for you? I want TIE Fighters to be damage dealers or blockers, and Dark Curse does neither of those things well for his points. He's easily ignored. Even if you can't kill him end-game, you still probably win the game, because your remaining ship is worth more than Dark Curse.

That's one of the things I like about X-wing. Different ships can work differently for different people.

Dark Curse is not a serious threat, no more than any other TIE. But he is an annoyance. Sometimes he goes down like an Academy Pilot in the early game and sometimes he lasts until the end. Mostly he just irritates and annoys my opponents as he gets lost in the swarm and they can't prioritize targets. He flusters them and that will never show up in the mathematical analysis.

I one time killed Dark Curse without ever firing on him. I hit him with two seismic bombs, and then two turns later he clipped an asteroid and rolled a hit. It was pretty awesome. Also, remember that Dark Curse doesn't shut down guidance chips. He's susceptible to ordnance now. For the points I think I'd rather bring a Tie/FO or a BSP w/ Crackshot.

I think Howlrunner is now completely useless in 100 point formats. There are too many things that throw 4 attack dice. She will maybe get you 1 round of buffing before she explodes, and that's if you are lucky. I'd rather use Youngster with Rage and save 2 points. That way I wouldn't have to stay in formation either.

I've been thinking about this thread for a couple of days, and I've come to the conclusion that I don't understand what it's for . Are there a lot of people who need a reference list to determine whether Howlrunner is good, or that they should probably pass on Winged Gundark?

Ah, Vorpal. Close your eyes and imagine back to the halcyon days when you first showed up to a tournament with an Outer Rim Smuggler, Wedge, and Luke, dreaming of victory - and got butchered by a TIE Swarm. Oh! If only there had existed a clear listing of which ships are good and which are bad!

By itself, this thread is only a small section of data. Eventually, each ship will have its pilots ranked this way, and that will tell:

1) Experienced players which classic pilots have lost value in the current meta and which pilots have gained and why. The Academy Pilot is very much NOT an Rank A pilot at the moment just by virtue of usage: Big Academy swarms are a rarity, and its main niche seems to be cheap blocking. There were five times the points spent on BSPs over APs over the last six months, and just as many points were spent on Bounty Hunters as APs. What it was doesn't matter as much as what it is .

2) Players just beginning the tournament scene which ships are most viable and why. Aren't you sick of explaining to someone why Kir Kanos isn't as good as Soontir Fel? Or why Carnor Jax, while okay, is a niche pilot? Pretty soon there will be a thread ranking TIE/INs you can point to or quote directly.

3) The developers themselves which ships aren't being used and why. While the devs do have List Juggler to point at and go, "Huh, looks like Rexler Brath and all the other TIE/Defenders aren't being used, how can we fix that?" a ranking list like this can explain more clearly.

Plus, it keeps me from being bored while asthma tries to suffocate me. You wouldn't want me bored, would you?

Ah, Vorpal. Close your eyes and imagine back to the halcyon days when you first showed up to a tournament with an Outer Rim Smuggler, Wedge, and Luke, dreaming of victory - and got butchered by a TIE Swarm. Oh! If only there had existed a clear listing of which ships are good and which are bad!

The first time I showed up to an X-wing tournament, there was no such thing as an Outer Rim Smuggler yet.

By itself, this thread is only a small section of data. Eventually, each ship will have its pilots ranked this way, and that will tell:

1) Experienced players which classic pilots have lost value in the current meta and which pilots have gained and why. The Academy Pilot is very much NOT an Rank A pilot at the moment just by virtue of usage: Big Academy swarms are a rarity, and its main niche seems to be cheap blocking. There were five times the points spent on BSPs over APs over the last six months, and just as many points were spent on Bounty Hunters as APs. What it was doesn't matter as much as what it is .

But experienced players already know this.

2) Players just beginning the tournament scene which ships are most viable and why. Aren't you sick of explaining to someone why Kir Kanos isn't as good as Soontir Fel? Or why Carnor Jax, while okay, is a niche pilot? Pretty soon there will be a thread ranking TIE/INs you can point to or quote directly.

Only if I agreed with all of your points, though--which I won't, because we're different people with different approaches (and at least a slightly different context in which we value pilots). Plus if it's my friend I'm introducing to the tournament scene, I'd rather buy him or her a beer and have a geeky conversation than simply point to an online thread.

3) The developers themselves which ships aren't being used and why. While the devs do have List Juggler to point at and go, "Huh, looks like Rexler Brath and all the other TIE/Defenders aren't being used, how can we fix that?" a ranking list like this can explain more clearly.

I'm pretty sure the developers already have a fairly good grasp of why Rexler Brath and the other TIE defenders aren't being used.

Plus, it keeps me from being bored while asthma tries to suffocate me. You wouldn't want me bored, would you?

By no means!

I one time killed Dark Curse without ever firing on him. I hit him with two seismic bombs, and then two turns later he clipped an asteroid and rolled a hit. It was pretty awesome. Also, remember that Dark Curse doesn't shut down guidance chips. He's susceptible to ordnance now. For the points I think I'd rather bring a Tie/FO or a BSP w/ Crackshot.

And this one time at Band Camp I killed Chirpy in two rounds and he never fired a shot because I blocked him onto a rock.

I think Howlrunner is now completely useless in 100 point formats. There are too many things that throw 4 attack dice. She will maybe get you 1 round of buffing before she explodes, and that's if you are lucky. I'd rather use Youngster with Rage and save 2 points. That way I wouldn't have to stay in formation either.

She is perhaps not as important as a force multiplier as she used to be given things like Youngster and Rage, Crackshot, and Juke, but she's far from useless. Of course she's a priority target, but usually there's a better target closer. The temptation to "get a ship off the board" pulls people toward the range 1 shot at an Academy who hasn't shot yet instead of the R2 shot to Howlrunner. I usually give her a hull upgrade as insurance anyway.

Youngster and Rage is an interesting alternative, but I wonder about the impact of double stressing a bunch of TIEs. I haven't been able to test it on the tabletop yet.

Excellent list. Pretty much agree with the whole thing exactly. I'd always keep Academy and Obsidian on the same tier though, because, all things considering, an Obsidian is simply an Academy pilot with Veteran Instincts.

Youngster+Rage works best with TIE/FOs; the green turn helps it get back into the fight and with Epsilon Leader you can clear the stress from a group in one turn.

So I added this paragraph to the opening to better explain my methodology:

In the overview a rough average percentage of use by points spent among top cut players over the last three complete months will be mentioned, and in each entry will mention the average percentage among pilots used for that ship. So, for example,if the Decimator uses 10% of total Imperial player points, and Rear Admiral Chiraneau is an average of 50% of those points spent, then RAC uses 5% of average Imperial player points spent.

And added percentage usage, month by month, to each entry. I changed Dark Curse to B, as its percentage of use is actually pretty, uh, good? compared to others. You might notice that APs and OSPs have 11% and 6% respectively, but that was from older data which had them at a big number - and then they fell a lot, mostly because of BSPs.

This one seems pretty spot on to me. Some TIE pilots are simply amazing, some less so, but each and every one of them is usable. I've really been meaning to try out "Chaser" and "Night Beast" with TCs. Both of them have an ability that gives them a pseudo-PTL, and could help them maximize those two dice. It's no BlackCrack, but could still be effective (as long as your squad has other means of dealing with high agility enemies).

Winged Gundark is, still, the worst in the group. Still wouldn't put him at "F" though, as naked and flying with other TIEs it's not difficult tothrow a block, get him in R1, and then lay a nasty crit on your victim.

"Youngster" is still an enigma. Interesting ability, but how to use it? Rage, Marksmanship... those seem like the best bets. Expose sounds amusing, especially stacked with folks like "Scourge" that can get even more extra dice, but I doubt it's competitiveness.

Thanks for posting, I really enjoyed reading this thread. Sure, people will disagree and your OP may not end up seeming like a definitive tier list. However, the detail that you have included and the discussion that it has sparked is really useful.