Intentional Draw ruling, Page 6 Tournament Regulation FAQ:

"During Swiss rounds, players may intentionally draw a game so long as a leader is present for any discussion between players prior to the agreement. The leader’s presence is required to prevent any breach of the tournament’s integrity. The leader will not intervene as long as players follow the “Unsporting Conduct” on page 3. If two players intentionally draw a game, each player receives 1 tournament point and a Margin of Victory of 100, just as if they were to arrive at a natural draw over the course of play."

Unsporting Conduct, Page 3 Tournament Regulation FAQ:

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden. Players cannot reference outside material or information during a round. However, players may reference official rule documents at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule documents.

Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden.

This phrase is what makes ID's illegal. Any player knows their score, because they know how many wins/mod wins/draws they have up to this point. With the official Tourney sheets players can also calculate their MOV. Most tournaments also print out and post ranking with score and MOV. This is almost a guaranteed good thing as players can see/look for any errors in reporting, which happen from time to time. Because anyone can know their score and wish to ID they are colluding.

players may intentionally draw a game so long as a leader is present for any discussion between players prior to the agreement.

So, if anyone hears the players talk about drawing before a TO gets to the table for the "official" discussion, they need to speak up and prevent the ID as the prior discussion breaks the rules.

Honestly, there is no case where ID's can be allowed and NOT mark it as collusion.

Yes, that means that in large events where going into the last round there are multiple x-0 and x-1, the second you do an ID you manipulate the scoring. What happens if one of the players who went x-0 (but had crappy mov each game, like losing a full IG-88 and 1/2 the other, so MOV 124/5 each game) ID's to get that last point. But, had they played out the match would have lost, so end up x-1 with crappy MOV. And, what happens if someone going into the final round x-1 (who had insane MOV each game) wins the final match. Had the x-0 NOT taken the ID their final record of x-1 would have been lower than the x-1 of the other player, potentially knocking them out of contention for the cut.

Here is another scenario that you might see as "Pseudo" legal. You are playing in the final round of swiss. You know you are (most likely) going to make the cut regardless. As soon as that thought pops into your head, you are colluding to manipulate scoring. The reason why you are want the ID at that point become meaningless, as you are using the ID to secure your spot and go and rest/eat/whatever. It doesn't matter if you call the TO over and actually have the discussion/offer to ID with your opponent. The second "Cut", "Place" or similar words are used, you are colluding. Ergo, not allowed.

How absurd can this get? Simple. Go to the regional this weekend. EVERYONE ID EVERY GAME, INCLUDING THE CUT (which won't happen). The end result will be EVERYONE wins, every gets everything. Period, end of story. I can't wait to see the email the TO sends to FFGOP stating that they need a lot more coins, dice, acrylics, byes, and plaques because EVERYONE won.

Bugger off.

Cheers

Baaa

Yay, someone else who doesn't understand how this will work.

"The leader will not intervene as long as players follow the “Unsporting Conduct” on page 3."

Being an insolent child and you: The x-wing story.

Crying until i get my way: The X-wing Continuation

99 Posts About the Same Stupid Thing One More Couldn't Hurt: X-wing the Revengencing

Better Make It 100 Too Much is Never Enough: X-wing ID Another day

FFG Has Ruled On This Issue, Yet Community Not Willing To Accept and Move on: Big Trouble in Little Minnesota

Yay, someone else who doesn't understand how this will work.

How many threads does this make? Is anyone counting?

I will say that, by the rules as they stand, it is difficult not to engage in some level of collusion.

It's really simple. "Collusion among players to manipulate scoring" is defined by FFG. They don't see IDs as collusion, so they aren't.

Collusion specifically implies that the players are working together to do something illegal, but not reporting each other.

In working together with a TO, to resolve an ID, players are specifically working within the rules.

Funny how those claiming that IDs are anti-casual are trying to find the most legalistic ways to show that IDs are illegal.

"

How absurd can this get? Simple. Go to the regional this weekend. EVERYONE ID EVERY GAME, INCLUDING THE CUT (which won't happen). The end result will be EVERYONE wins, every gets everything. Period, end of story. I can't wait to see the email the TO sends to FFGOP stating that they need a lot more coins, dice, acrylics, byes, and plaques because EVERYONE won."

I would love to see that happen lol

this is turning into some serious top of the line conspiracy theory ****, isn't it?

jet fuel can't melt unsportsmanlike conduct

"

How absurd can this get? Simple. Go to the regional this weekend. EVERYONE ID EVERY GAME, INCLUDING THE CUT (which won't happen). The end result will be EVERYONE wins, every gets everything. Period, end of story. I can't wait to see the email the TO sends to FFGOP stating that they need a lot more coins, dice, acrylics, byes, and plaques because EVERYONE won."

I would love to see that happen lol

Except, that's not going to happen and won't happen. IDing isn't a rational thing to do in the first round.

The whole top 8 drawing in is an exceptionally rare occurrence. Just because it happened this weekend makes the issue seem to sting a bit more to some of those with less reasoning ability.

I will say that, by the rules as they stand, it is difficult not to engage in some level of collusion.

By this I simply mean that as soon as one player mentions anything about an ID to his opponent outside the presence of the TO/judge they are engaging in collusion. This collusion is easily circumvented by one player saying to the other "Hold on, I need to get the TO/judge." and go and do just that, without mention of the why. Once the player and TO/judge return then the discussion can start (not continue) regarding the ID. I cannot say if that exact set of circumstances happened at the Roanoke regional or not as I was not there. Though there have been a number of reports from several sources that at the very least some of the other players stated for all to hear the top 8 could draw their way into the cut. Not sure how that factors into the equation, but there it is.

"

How absurd can this get? Simple. Go to the regional this weekend. EVERYONE ID EVERY GAME, INCLUDING THE CUT (which won't happen). The end result will be EVERYONE wins, every gets everything. Period, end of story. I can't wait to see the email the TO sends to FFGOP stating that they need a lot more coins, dice, acrylics, byes, and plaques because EVERYONE won."

I would love to see that happen lol

Except, that's not going to happen and won't happen. IDing isn't a rational thing to do in the first round.

The whole top 8 drawing in is an exceptionally rare occurrence. Just because it happened this weekend makes the issue seem to sting a bit more to some of those with less reasoning ability.

Agreed. What will happen much more often is that 1-2 tables will take intentional draws, compressing the rest of the cut and pushing approximately 1 player off the bubble. (And by "much more often", I mean in every single event.)

I think Roanoake was galvanizing because it's very much a worst-case scenario, and it happened essentially right out of the gate. ID would be a bad rule if Roanoake had been a more typical tournament, but the actual outcome emphasizes just how far ID can warp the (already wobbling) tournament system.

"

How absurd can this get? Simple. Go to the regional this weekend. EVERYONE ID EVERY GAME, INCLUDING THE CUT (which won't happen). The end result will be EVERYONE wins, every gets everything. Period, end of story. I can't wait to see the email the TO sends to FFGOP stating that they need a lot more coins, dice, acrylics, byes, and plaques because EVERYONE won."

I would love to see that happen lol

Except, that's not going to happen and won't happen. IDing isn't a rational thing to do in the first round.

The whole top 8 drawing in is an exceptionally rare occurrence. Just because it happened this weekend makes the issue seem to sting a bit more to some of those with less reasoning ability.

Agreed. What will happen much more often is that 1-2 tables will take intentional draws, compressing the rest of the cut and pushing approximately 1 player off the bubble. (And by "much more often", I mean in every single event.)

I think Roanoake was galvanizing because it's very much a worst-case scenario, and it happened essentially right out of the gate. ID would be a bad rule if Roanoake had been a more typical tournament, but the actual outcome emphasizes just how far ID can warp the (already wobbling) tournament system.

But even there, it negatively affected at most 2 players. It's only a big deal because of the nebulousness near the cut.

I'm all in favor of changing the tournament format slightly to alleviate the impact of IDs (for instance: all draws = 0 pts or higher seed gets choice of initiative in single-elim), but outlawing IDs, especially at this point, will only make the militant casual TOs much more sanctimonious and there will be a witch hunt against anyone who naturally draws (let alone naturally draws in the last round).

"The leader will not intervene as long as players follow the “Unsporting Conduct” on page 3."

It's really simple. "Collusion among players to manipulate scoring" is defined by FFG. They don't see IDs as collusion, so they aren't.

So the judge needs to be present to make sure that in the process of discussing whether to ID or not, the players do not appear to be trying to manipulate scoring, but the only way players can do that is by an ID? Makes sense.

"

How absurd can this get? Simple. Go to the regional this weekend. EVERYONE ID EVERY GAME, INCLUDING THE CUT (which won't happen). The end result will be EVERYONE wins, every gets everything. Period, end of story. I can't wait to see the email the TO sends to FFGOP stating that they need a lot more coins, dice, acrylics, byes, and plaques because EVERYONE won."

I would love to see that happen lol

Except, that's not going to happen and won't happen. IDing isn't a rational thing to do in the first round.

The whole top 8 drawing in is an exceptionally rare occurrence. Just because it happened this weekend makes the issue seem to sting a bit more to some of those with less reasoning ability.

Agreed. What will happen much more often is that 1-2 tables will take intentional draws, compressing the rest of the cut and pushing approximately 1 player off the bubble. (And by "much more often", I mean in every single event.)

I think Roanoake was galvanizing because it's very much a worst-case scenario, and it happened essentially right out of the gate. ID would be a bad rule if Roanoake had been a more typical tournament, but the actual outcome emphasizes just how far ID can warp the (already wobbling) tournament system.

I think you're looking at 3 of the 4 top tables doing this at virtually every meaningful event, and 4 out of 4 more often than you may think.

Eggsellent posts A_W, eggsellent indeed. All of them.

Can you make it a dozen?

wait...we're still here

I think you're looking at 3 of the 4 top tables doing this at virtually every meaningful event, and 4 out of 4 more often than you may think.

not really. I was just at the other Regional that happened on Saturday. Going into the final round, the standings were:

1. 20 points

2. 18 points

3-11: 15 points

12. 11 points

13-21: 10 points

1st and 2nd could draw, but no one else could. that 11-point player could get to 16, and players 9, 10, and 11 can't draw, because they'll still be behind on tiebreakers. Only someone ranked 3-8, with a 201-point MoV advantage over 12th place could have thought about it, and then only if they were paired against someone else with the same situation. There was only one player in that position, so the only draws were the two undefeated players.

I think you're looking at 3 of the 4 top tables doing this at virtually every meaningful event, and 4 out of 4 more often than you may think.

not really. I was just at the other Regional that happened on Saturday. Going into the final round, the standings were:

1. 20 points

2. 18 points

3-11: 15 points

12. 11 points

13-21: 10 points

1st and 2nd could draw, but no one else could. that 11-point player could get to 16, and players 9, 10, and 11 can't draw, because they'll still be behind on tiebreakers. Only someone ranked 3-8, with a 201-point MoV advantage over 12th place could have thought about it, and then only if they were paired against someone else with the same situation. There was only one player in that position, so the only draws were the two undefeated players.

It depends greatly on the turnout for an event, events that fall near the top of a round structure limit won't have this problem because there will be too many 1 loss players in the final round. Tournaments near the bottom of a round structure limit will have this problem frequently. TO's and Stores could easily alleviate some of this by capping attendance at certain numbers that prevent them from having 8 X-1 or better players in the last round. Not saying this is the ultimate fix, but within the current rules it could be a good way mitigate this. I don't have a problem with the rule itself, I'm just sad to see what it's doing to this community. I think what everyone really wants is a tournament system that feels fair and competitive, whether it's right or wrong it's undeniably deflating to see the top tables empty in the last round of a tournament.