Not to draw anyone's attention from a less savory topic but I think we need to be intentional about focusing on what these forums do best: hypotheticals, theorycrafting, and "fixing" ships.

How about this:

Give the old T-65 Red Squadron an EPT slot for free. Would a 25 point, R2 astromech, Integrated Astromech, CrackShot, PS4 X-wing be an attractive choice for anyone?

I think four of those would be somewhat not terrible. Crack Shot can be nasty on Black Squads, I'd imagine it is even scarier on a 3 attack ship. Decent chance to nuke a Scout before it fires maybe?

Thoughts?

I think so, but then again, I like taking things people say aren't good and trying to do well with them.

It would be hard, but not impossible, to play against something like Soontir Fel or a Phantom.

Part of me thinks that X-wings will be inferior to B-wings due to the Tyranny of Red Dice. Anyone who didn't read that post/article can basically say that there are a lot of things that boost red dice (predator, etc), but few things that boost evade dice. So, until there is something that can improve green dice over shields, it might be hard.

I'd love to see something that boosts green dice more.

It isn't bad but I am not sure it is enough by itself. You still have to buy the EPT (although Deadeye and Torpedoes might have some merit).

Remember that A-wings can get an extra EPT for free (although that is to account for the fact that they are also somewhat over-costed). How much is an EPT slot worth? 1 point perhaps

Comparing the T65 and T70 suggests that the generic T65s are over-costed by about 5 points (some specific pilots are still worth taking as they have abilities that are good enough to outweigh this). That to me suggests that any fix for the T-65 needs to be in the 4-5 point bracket to make them worthwhile. I am a fan of a title granting a discount on Torpedoes much the same way that the Tie Advanced title gives a discount on Systems.

Z95 swarms with Concussion missiles led by a higher PS pilot with thread-tracers seem a popular idea in the evolving "ordnance alpha-strike" category. Discounted T65s with Protorps in a similar role look good and would give the humble X-wing a decent workhorse role.

Yes, this would make them better, and I think it's a fair way to do it while keeping the b wing relevant as a jouster as well. They've been following this pattern since then for the most part anyway, as evidenced by the t70 pilots.

Comparing the T65 and T70 suggests that the generic T65s are over-costed by about 5 points

16 point Rookie Pilots? You're kidding.

Personally, I think we're more likely to get a better elite generic (a PS3 EPT for 22 or a PS5 EPT for 24) and some broad upgrade for all of them. Whether that's a buff or just a role expansion I'm not sure.

Comparing the T65 and T70 suggests that the generic T65s are over-costed by about 5 points (some specific pilots are still worth taking as they have abilities that are good enough to outweigh this).

Where are you getting this 5 pts? You realize the T-70 has an extra shield and Boost, right?

I think so, but then again, I like taking things people say aren't good and trying to do well with them.

It would be hard, but not impossible, to play against something like Soontir Fel or a Phantom.

Part of me thinks that X-wings will be inferior to B-wings due to the Tyranny of Red Dice. Anyone who didn't read that post/article can basically say that there are a lot of things that boost red dice (predator, etc), but few things that boost evade dice. So, until there is something that can improve green dice over shields, it might be hard.

I'd love to see something that boosts green dice more.

I'm not sure that more access to defensive buffs is the solution. Soontir Fel with Palpatine around is a prime example of what happens when you have access to too many things that boost green dice. If everyone has to tool up to push damage through a fairly consistent 3-5 evade results, then it sucks to be anything that is easier to hit.

Comparing the T65 and T70 suggests that the generic T65s are over-costed by about 5 points (some specific pilots are still worth taking as they have abilities that are good enough to outweigh this).

Where are you getting this 5 pts? You realize the T-70 has an extra shield and Boost, right?

Did he subtract four points for Shield Upgrade and four points for Engine Upgrade from the T-70? Because that would indeed give him 16 points as the "correct" cost for the T-65.

If anyone needs proof as to why you can't do that, do the same thing to the TIE/fo. Subtract Shield Upgrade and Targeting Computer? 9 points.

Eleven Academy Pilots is not a balanced 99pt squad.

Comparing the T65 and T70 suggests that the generic T65s are over-costed by about 5 points (some specific pilots are still worth taking as they have abilities that are good enough to outweigh this).

Where are you getting this 5 pts? You realize the T-70 has an extra shield and Boost, right?

It has an extra shield (4pts) Boost (4pts), a better dial (?? pts), and a better upgrade bar (?? pts). And it is 3 points more expensive. While it's common knowledge that the upgrade cards are "overcost" compared to the built in stats, even if you discount a shield and boost to 2 points each, then you're looking at 1pt over cost for the stats, plus whatever the dial and upgrade bar represent. The dial is probably worth at least 1 point to have those talon rolls, not to mention the green 3 straight. And then currently access to tech isn't that useful, but it could potentially be a great thing.

I would say at this point they're probably 3 points overcost compared to the T-70. But the Red Vet has an EPT, so that would indicate that the Red Squad should have one as well, or be cheaper when compared to the rookie/blue novice.

I don't think looking at those upgrade cards is how to go about looking at the value of the t65 vs t70. Engine upgrade for example is usually over costed on many ships, but makes sense for large based ships that can become much better for it. Boost on a low ps generics is also not nearly as useful as on high ps aces. It's why engine upgrade is seen on things corran or wedge, but generally not on x wing rookie pilots or something.

Poe dameron is going to get more use out of boost than your blue squad novices for example.

I think in reality the difference is more like a point or two.

It has an extra shield (4pts) Boost (4pts), a better dial (?? pts), and a better upgrade bar (?? pts). And it is 3 points more expensive. While it's common knowledge that the upgrade cards are "overcost" compared to the built in stats, even if you discount a shield and boost to 2 points each, then you're looking at 1pt over cost for the stats, plus whatever the dial and upgrade bar represent. The dial is probably worth at least 1 point to have those talon rolls, not to mention the green 3 straight. And then currently access to tech isn't that useful, but it could potentially be a great thing.

I would say at this point they're probably 3 points overcost compared to the T-70. But the Red Vet has an EPT, so that would indicate that the Red Squad should have one as well, or be cheaper when compared to the rookie/blue novice.

Boost is not worth four points. Adding Boost to a ship that lacks it using the modification slot is four points.

Hull Upgrade costs three points, but how valuable that Hull Point point is depends on the ship. Carnor Jax gets a lot out of a Hull Upgrade because that hull point is behind three agility. The same is true of all modifications: they're usually more expensive than the ability they provide because they can be added to any ship and any future ship.

Need more evidence? B-wing. Take all its shields off. That, according to Shield = 4pts, makes an unshielded B-wing a 2 point ship.

The value of a statline or ability is completely contexual.

Nope making them more expensive with an ept makes them worse not better.

Aces need a reposition ability generics needs a discount.

Free title like the A wing title.

Nope making them more expensive with an ept makes them worse not better.

Aces need a reposition ability generics needs a discount.

Aces don't necessarily need a reposition ability.They could also just come out with something that would allow the ships to negate Boost or Barrel Roll on enemy ships. If there were a pilot or astromech that prevented use of Boost/Barrel Roll actions within your firing arc at range 1-2, that would provide solid utility without jumping straight onto the "Every ship should be able to barrel roll!" bandwagon.

I still feel this would be a good fix

Nope making them more expensive with an ept makes them worse not better.

Aces need a reposition ability generics needs a discount.

Aces don't necessarily need a reposition ability.They could also just come out with something that would allow the ships to negate Boost or Barrel Roll on enemy ships. If there were a pilot or astromech that prevented use of Boost/Barrel Roll actions within your firing arc at range 1-2, that would provide solid utility without jumping straight onto the "Every ship should be able to barrel roll!" bandwagon.

No that's terrible game design nothing frustrates players more that having their choices forcibly taken away, ion removes movement choices but that's as a result of failing your defensive roll.

An astromech that just removes extra movement without giving the victim a chance to avoid it is broken.

It also unfairly punishes people that chose the high risk high reward play style over mindlessly jousting.

What is it with all the "please spam X-wings" mechanic ideas?

An astromech that just removes extra movement without giving the victim a chance to avoid it is broken.

Fairly sure the way you'd avoid it is the same way you avoid Tactician.

It also unfairly punishes people that chose the high risk high reward play style over mindlessly jousting.

If anything, I'd say the Kihraxz and X-wing are harder to play than the TIE interceptor at this point. They rely entirely on prediction rather than being able to react like an interceptor.

What is it with all the "please spam X-wings" mechanic ideas?

An astromech that just removes extra movement without giving the victim a chance to avoid it is broken.

Fairly sure the way you'd avoid it is the same way you avoid Tactician.

By boosting or barrel-rolling out of arc?

Comparing the T65 and T70 suggests that the generic T65s are over-costed by about 5 points (some specific pilots are still worth taking as they have abilities that are good enough to outweigh this).

Where are you getting this 5 pts? You realize the T-70 has an extra shield and Boost, right?

Did he subtract four points for Shield Upgrade and four points for Engine Upgrade from the T-70? Because that would indeed give him 16 points as the "correct" cost for the T-65.

Yup, that is exactly what I did and I agree with other posters that a 16-point X-wing is not right. However it also suggests the magnitude of the discount that needs to be applied to make them competitive. Remember that a 4-5 point discount on a particular upgrade (ala Tie/x1) is not the same as a discount off the basic ship. It can only be spent on certain upgrades which makes it much less flexible. Also, you cannot chose not to take it and keep the points.

I think a T65 Title with a 4-point discount on torpedoes would be about right but I realise I am starting to sound like a stuck record.

No that's terrible game design nothing frustrates players more that having their choices forcibly taken away, ion removes movement choices but that's as a result of failing your defensive roll.

An astromech that just removes extra movement without giving the victim a chance to avoid it is broken.

It also unfairly punishes people that chose the high risk high reward play style over mindlessly jousting.

First of all I disagree that removing choices is bad game design. Many games thrive on restricting your enemies choices.

Secondly, I'd say that playing with repositioning aces is much more mindless than having to just use the maneuvers on your dial. Any idiot can fly ships that move last and get two repositioning actions. Flying ships that have to get their movement right by using JUST their dial is HARD.

Yup, that is exactly what I did and I agree with other posters that a 16-point X-wing is not right. However it also suggests the magnitude of the discount that needs to be applied to make them competitive.

What it suggests is equating the cost of modifications with the partial cost of statlines does not give meaningful information. Again, if you take all the "Shield Upgrades" off a B-wing it's worth 2 points. Fairly sure a list consisting of 50 unshielded B-wings is not balanced.

Considering g r2d6 exists and does something with integrated, I doubt it'd be enough

Granted I still think they and every PS 4 generic should have access to at least crackshot regardless

No that's terrible game design nothing frustrates players more that having their choices forcibly taken away, ion removes movement choices but that's as a result of failing your defensive roll.

An astromech that just removes extra movement without giving the victim a chance to avoid it is broken.

It also unfairly punishes people that chose the high risk high reward play style over mindlessly jousting.

First of all I disagree that removing choices is bad game design. Many games thrive on restricting your enemies choices.

Secondly, I'd say that playing with repositioning aces is much more mindless than having to just use the maneuvers on your dial. Any idiot can fly ships that move last and get two repositioning actions. Flying ships that have to get their movement right by using JUST their dial is HARD.

Look up lash of submission.

Nope making them more expensive with an ept makes them worse not better.

But...there are 0 point EPTs now.

No that's terrible game design nothing frustrates players more that having their choices forcibly taken away, ion removes movement choices but that's as a result of failing your defensive roll.

An astromech that just removes extra movement without giving the victim a chance to avoid it is broken.

It also unfairly punishes people that chose the high risk high reward play style over mindlessly jousting.

First of all I disagree that removing choices is bad game design. Many games thrive on restricting your enemies choices.

Secondly, I'd say that playing with repositioning aces is much more mindless than having to just use the maneuvers on your dial. Any idiot can fly ships that move last and get two repositioning actions. Flying ships that have to get their movement right by using JUST their dial is HARD.

Look up lash of submission.

Or Biggs. Or Carnor Jax or Omega Leader.