The Thing About White "Solar Panels"

By nitrobenz, in X-Wing Off-Topic

This is intended to be a rant (possibly followed by discussion if anybody else is into it) about what's wrong with "solar powered" TIE fighters in regards to the recent additions of the TIEfo, TIEsf and TIE/v1. This particular post has been brought on by my realization that I was way off topic on another thread :wacko:

  • the bullet points will be to highlight the TLDR bits. Feel free to just read those then post something about how the white TIE/fo wings bother you or what your idea to reconcile the imaginary physics is :)
After listening to my ranting on this subject, a friend of mine suggested that maybe the TIE "wings" are actually radiators, in which case the white panels would be more effective (& efficient?) thus allowing for shields and life support while (slightly) reducing the size. At the time I shrugged and said "maybe, but that means every Star Wars cross section, including the current one, is wrong..."

Now that the TIE/v1 is a thing though I'm starting to see that this may be a sensible retcon because if the TIE/v1 panels are solar then that's just as bad as (or worse than!) the white TIEfo panels since only one side (the inner side at that) is black and the outer side is armored. Then we can look at the progression of precursors to the TIE fighter and according to cross-section books and other sources they all have radiator wings: see Alpha-3(V-wing), Eta-2 (jedi) Interceptor, and the Scimitar (built by Sienar) which are all powered by a pair of Ion Engines and have vertical wings alongside the fuselage that are labelled as "radiators".

  • In this post I'm trying to reconcile the inconsistencies between the established imaginary physics of Star Wars and the new ships introduced to the TIE series under Disney's watch; the TIE/fo and TIE/sf with their white wings, and the TIE/v1 with its half armored folding wings.
Under the "radiator wings" hypothesis I would then posit that the central reactor of the TIE series is some kind of super hot fusion core (a "fusion hyper-collider core" if I may be so bold) which uses some kind of thermocouple, or some more advanced system based on the thermoelectric effect . Such a system would require large radiators to transfer the heat energy into the relative vacuum of space (I'll save the "is Star Wars space a true vacuum" for another time) so the heat could pass through the thermoelectric components. Using this fusion-powered thermocouple design can also be used to explain the "incorrect" depictions everywhere of TIE series ships with what appears to be a huge rocket flume shooting out of the big ring on the back. Under the traditional view of the TIE components this ring was labelled a "solar reactor" is supposed to be a super-efficient way of smashing sunlight into your limited reserve of ionized fuel then vent 100% of that energy out through the dual thrust ports, also known as the "Twin Ion Engines". If we were to say it is instead a "fusion Hyper-collider ring" powering that same process, I could imagine a sort of afterburner mode where the power is redirected from the radiators and vented directly out of the center of the reactor like Iron Man firing his "Arc-beam" resulting in a boost in speed at the cost of maneuverability and other power reliant systems.

As a side bonus this also solves an issue I have with another Imperial ship in this game: the Raider-class Corvette. The fact that they put TIE style wings on the Raider has irked me since day 1. Why does a powerful corvette have fragile solar panels covering a quarter of its hull? If we assume that the TIE panels are radiators then it is both feasible and consistent for the "wings" of the Raider to be large radiators that serve a similar function. Those panels are not nearly large enough to absorb the energy required to power a vessel of that size, they might be large enough to power something the size of the VT-49 Decimator, given the size of the TIE Interceptor's panels relative to the rest of the ship...

  • Altogether I think this "fusion reactor" powering the "Twin Ion Engines" via thermocouple to the "radiator fins/wings" is the simplest solution to the TIE's inconsistencies, but it comes at the cost of requiring a massive retcon of Star Wars materials to relabel the TIE wings as radiator panels instead of solar panels.
Alternatively I have a second solution to the problem with the First Order's white solar panels that would require less retconning. By expanding the theoretical collection range of the light spectrum the panels could collect light outside the visible spectrum then appear any color as it reflects visible light and absorbs some other invisible wavelength. This presents a different problem though in that you really want to get every bit you can when dealing with sunlight, especially in deep space where TIE fighters spend a good chunk of time, but there are other forms of radiation in space that could hypothetically produce more energy than sunlight from the nearest star. What if the solar reactor could be using cosmic radiation collected by the "solar collection panels"? If I stretch my understanding of imaginary physics to other comic books franchises I think I can find another good source of power for our TIE/fo's: The Power Cosmic!

Well, more generally, I would suggest they run off of cosmic background radiation which is plentiful in deep space. However, this is a loosely defined term in modern theoretical physics that can refer to dark energy , zero-point energy , or cosmic microwave background radiation and although there is a lot of theory behind it, there's very little testable research and no (publicly) known way to make these energies do anything besides power the universe. I'm not much of a physicist so after much reading and a slight headache I'm going to say that this throws the solar panels, solar reactor, and whole TIE system deep into the area of science covered by Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

(And here I write a quiet curse against the Disneyfication of Star Wars, I'll get over it. Eventually.)

  • With the idea of cosmic radiation power I think "solar panels" would easily be a layman's term to refer to the cosmic radiation collection panels on TIE series ships in much the same way that "laser" is a layman's term in Star Wars for the common pulse-energy weapon equipped to starships all over the galaxy.
To sum up, the "cosmic energy collection panels" might reconcile the inconsistencies highlighted with the First Order TIEs as well as the TIE Adv. Prototype just as well as my initial "radiator" theory did, but at the same time it nullifies the need to retcon anything by turning the old terminology into a vaguely accurate layman's term for an extremely advanced piece of technology. Additionally I like the idea that this technology may be so advanced that even within the Star Wars universe there is only the one company that actually bothered to make it work, and with compromises at that, which is why you don't see the same technology used on the fighters built by other companies.

I've come back around to the old term of "solar panels" being accurate enough that I can satisfactorily use it again in regular conversation when referring to wings on TIEs. I think it is an interesting turn of thought for me after having set out to debunk this established convention and start a movement to change a term that is pretty ingrained in our little subculture; I instead formed a reinforcement of the established terminology (even if I did add some probably unnecessary depth to it).

If you have read all the way to this point: Thank You! I feel like I have some decent ideas flying around here, but it might just be me getting big headed from writing a short exposition on an imaginary piece of technology. Now I have one more favor to ask you, I know you're likely already tired from plowing through this questionable piece of writing, if you could leave a little note saying what you think of it. Just a quick comment about any part of this essay: the 'radiator' vs. 'cosmic collector' idea, whether my theories hold any water (or energy as it were), to let me know how ridiculous it is to spend time on this, overall structure of the writing, heck I'd even like to hear about my grammar and spelling if that's what stands out!

  • Now that I've written (and researched) all that out and I'm back in the fold of "solar panels" I still want to hear what you guys think of my amateur imagineering, especially if there's an actual physicist around to explain my own theory to me :P
I'm done tying my brain in knots while trying to wrap around that cosmic energy idea: It's time to wrap things up here so I can do something more relaxing, like play this game where I push little plastic spaceships around on a table without regard for realistic physics ;)


I might even pick one up and swoosh it around with "spacey" noises to enhance the experience :lol:

So how do you feel about the rebels lot calling them 'stabilizers'?

They are not radiators, its using the collect surrounding energy to spark a reaction in its ion reactor. That and in one of the new books it just show that the white on the new solar panels is actually armor plating that when viewed from most angles makes it look like the panels are white, super up close though it looks like white window blinds, you can see the black panels underneath.

TIE Advanced V1 are just junk as far as I am concerned. And when compared with other TIEs it is the biggest *** to maintain because of the folding panels. The TIE ether has to be suspended like other ties to get to the other systems OR if it mostly lands how it looks to normally do so, which is parked without racks, the wings need to be pulled off just to get to the hardware, or rather the outer body that is protecting the hardware that needs to be maintained.

When so much of the rebel fleet has s-foils (not to mention similar folding wings appear on a range of shuttles and civilian vessels), and they with their limited resources manage to keep them maintained, I'm not to sure it's an insurmountable problem, though I can see it might be why the empire went with a different design instead.

Edited by Arterial Spray

Non-visible radiation is the immediate thing I thought as soon as I saw the first white panel.

NERDS!!!!

Ok, with that out of my system...

The very first Novelization, way back in 1976, had starships powered by Solar Ionization Reactors with Solar Fins providing some type of function necessary for the reactor to maintain power. When the Main Solar Fin is hit on the Tantive IV the reactor is shut down to avoid overheating and exploding. That implies the fins act as radiators of some kind. Now, compare the relative tiny fin-like structures along the ship near the engines with the huge honking engines themselves. And look at the huge wings on any TIE, especially the /ln, and the tiny tiny red dot engines. Could there be a relationship?

Also look at that X-wing, is there a reason why those wings are on that thing beyond looking cool? Perhaps those S-foils are also 'solar fins' that act as radiators for those oversized weapons and the reactors that that like to explode when the T-65 is hit dead center on its aft section. If you think about it there seems to be fin-like structures on most spacecraft in SW...

NERDS!!!!

Ok, with that out of my system...

The very first Novelization, way back in 1976, had starships powered by Solar Ionization Reactors with Solar Fins providing some type of function necessary for the reactor to maintain power. When the Main Solar Fin is hit on the Tantive IV the reactor is shut down to avoid overheating and exploding. That implies the fins act as radiators of some kind. Now, compare the relative tiny fin-like structures along the ship near the engines with the huge honking engines themselves. And look at the huge wings on any TIE, especially the /ln, and the tiny tiny red dot engines. Could there be a relationship?

Also look at that X-wing, is there a reason why those wings are on that thing beyond looking cool? Perhaps those S-foils are also 'solar fins' that act as radiators for those oversized weapons and the reactors that that like to explode when the T-65 is hit dead center on its aft section. If you think about it there seems to be fin-like structures on most spacecraft in SW...

In regards to the X-wing part, it is confirmed canon that wings on the X-wing, ARC-170, B-wing, Z-95, etc. etc. have radiators on them. TIEs are the disputed question, as every legends source tells us they're solar panels, but every new source seems to say otherwise.

Yikes! Ok, let me put this up on my computer and step back ten feet so I can read it... and uncross my eyes...

In regards to the X-wing part, it is confirmed canon that wings on the X-wing, ARC-170, B-wing, Z-95, etc. etc. have radiators on them. TIEs are the disputed question, as every legends source tells us they're solar panels, but every new source seems to say otherwise.

Thats not true, see below.

NERDS!!!!

Also look at that X-wing, is there a reason why those wings are on that thing beyond looking cool? Perhaps those S-foils are also 'solar fins' that act as radiators for those oversized weapons and the reactors that that like to explode when the T-65 is hit dead center on its aft section. If you think about it there seems to be fin-like structures on most spacecraft in SW...

Take into consideration those TIE cannons your talking about are also good enough to kill cap ships... I think X-Wings should explode.

Anyway, the designers that designed the wing fighters wanted the craft to have a backup mode of flight in atmosphere, hence the s-foils. Technically speaking the TIEs themselves could count as a s-foil although someone would have to test that in a wind tunnel or by dropping every version of the TIEs from a great height to see if they are.

Non-visible radiation is the immediate thing I thought as soon as I saw the first white panel.

Others thought it was "dark matter" or "dark energy," "negative photon" charged. Alas they are just covered in a white metal cage to better protect the black panels underneath.

Edited by Black Knight Leader

Ultimate Star Wars page 295

SOLAR POWER a pair of TIE Fighters engages the Ghost above Lothal. A TIE Fighter's lack wings contain a array of solar energy collectors that pool power and direct it to twin ion engines and two low-temperature lasers.

Ultimate Star Wars page 298 TIE Bomber

TIE bombers are robust Imperial crafts for plaetary and ship bombardment. As in TIE fighters, solar panels supplement fuel tanks to power twin ion engines.

Ultimate Star Wars page 300 TIE Advanced Prototype

Compared to a standard TIE fighter, the prototype TIE Advanced used by the Inquisitor has faster engines, stronger laser cannons, and a projectile launcera, which he uses to fire tracking devices at ships. The foldable S-foils have solar panels for keeping the stagither fully charged in most field conditions.

Ultimate Star Wars page 303 TIE Advanced Fighter X 1

Star power High performance solar cells.

Ultimate Star Wars page 307 TIE Interceptor

Easily recognized by its sharply pointed solar panels , the TIE Interceptor is far deadlier opponent than a standard TIE fighter. Although it also lacks shields and a hyperdrive, the Interceptor has foul laser cannons mounted on its wingtips , as well as upgraded engines providing considerable improved manerverability and speed.

Since they consider the Interceptor having "Wings" and probably other TIEs, the panels also will count as being S-foils.

Star Wars the Force Awakens ICS page 27 TIE Fighter

STAR POWER

A TIE's wings are solar-collecting arrays that gather light energy and channel it through high-efficiency coils into a reactor, where it triggers emissions from a high-pressure radioactive fuel. While visually similar to earlier TIE/lns, these laterst models boast improved solar cells and higher-capacity converters, the products of Imperila reearch conducted for TIE Advanced program.

Star Wars the Force Awakens ICS page 30 SF TIE Fighter

The First Oder's feared Special Forces have considerable resources at their disposal. These include a specialized moedl of TIE fighter that packs additional armament into a craft designed for long-range operations away from a base or command ship. Special Forces TIES are two-person fighters that carry a hyperdrive and deflector shileds, as well as banks of high-yield deuterim cells that prvide additional power to the engines, weapons, or shields and can be recharged from the TIE's solar panels .

Look, we all understand that the vast majority of 'reference' material states TIEs have solar panels, as well as lasers. Neither of these technologies seem to behave like our contemporary lasers and solar collectors. So I'm just gonna give up and say it doesn't matter, all this crap is just crap and there's no scientific merit in analyzing anything in SW. The continuity watchdogs can explain away all the stupidity they want to with as many ICS and other books they can crank out.

NERDS!!!!

...

;)

...Neither of these technologies seem to behave like our contemporary lasers and solar collectors. So I'm just gonna give up and say it doesn't matter...

:)

On the point brought up that the FO's have a white latticework of armor: that's hardly better than a white solar panel because now you have a reflective surface covering most of the solar panel. I do like the "armor slats" idea though as it could be practical and increase durability a if done right.

However, the slats would have to be perpendicular to the panel though and that arrangement would have a huge visual tell in that at certain angles the panels would appear black as your view passes over the narrow angle not covered by the slats where light is channeled down. I did not see that on screen during any TIE scene in ep7 which means either it's not the case or the SFX department just didn't do the work (in which case I expect that to be corrected in the special edition re-release in 20 years, to much dismay of future fans I'm sure :P )

If the slats were made of a more reflective armor material and/or arranged in a way that channeled the light straight through, then the panels would still appear black at all times...

Since the panels are always shown solid white, I don't think "armor slats" is the comprehensive answer I'm looking for.

Also, I would like to add a note that I'm well aware that canonical material and official reference guides unequivocally refer to TIE wings as "solar panels" powering "solar reactors" to energize the ion drives. I wrote up that little essay to say, "those references are wrong/misleading in universe, and here's why-" because the only part of that system that bears a serious resemblance to modern science is the ion drive

I'm considering starting another topic to address how the cosmic radiation/dark energy might be incorporated into the existence of apparent "jet intakes" on the miscellaneous-wing Fighters. Perhaps add some ether theory that explains why they move like atmospheric aircraft?

Look, we all understand that the vast majority of 'reference' material states TIEs have solar panels, as well as lasers. Neither of these technologies seem to behave like our contemporary lasers and solar collectors. So I'm just gonna give up and say it doesn't matter, all this crap is just crap and there's no scientific merit in analyzing anything in SW. The continuity watchdogs can explain away all the stupidity they want to with as many ICS and other books they can crank out.

But they were written by theortical physicist... As far as the LASERs go I am pretty sure they are hardlight lasers. So far the creation of real hardlight hasnt been labled a fraud. By making a hardlight laser bolt your making a laser that shouldnt naturally defuse, can travel farther distances while requiring less energy compared to traditional lasers used today, AND because its shapped into a bolt it could/should have more photons per square inch.

NERDS!!!!

...

Welcome to the party ;)
Hence the reference to Clarke's third law. If it's indistinguishable from magic then you can just say it's magic and move on. :)

On the point brought up that the FO's have a white latticework of armor: that's hardly better than a white solar panel because now you have a reflective surface covering most of the solar panel. I do like the "armor slats" idea though as it could be practical and increase durability a if done right.

However, the slats would have to be perpendicular to the panel though and that arrangement would have a huge visual tell in that at certain angles the panels would appear black as your view passes over the narrow angle not covered by the slats where light is channeled down. I did not see that on screen during any TIE scene in ep7 which means either it's not the case or the SFX department just didn't do the work (in which case I expect that to be corrected in the special edition re-release in 20 years, to much dismay of future fans I'm sure :P )

If the slats were made of a more reflective armor material and/or arranged in a way that channeled the light straight through, then the panels would still appear black at all times...

Since the panels are always shown solid white, I don't think "armor slats" is the comprehensive answer I'm looking for.

Also, I would like to add a note that I'm well aware that canonical material and official reference guides unequivocally refer to TIE wings as "solar panels" powering "solar reactors" to energize the ion drives. I wrote up that little essay to say, "those references are wrong/misleading in universe, and here's why-" because the only part of that system that bears a serious resemblance to modern science is the ion drive

I'm considering starting another topic to address how the cosmic radiation/dark energy might be incorporated into the existence of apparent "jet intakes" on the miscellaneous-wing Fighters. Perhaps add some ether theory that explains why they move like atmospheric aircraft?

My question is for the bolded area. Why...? They may have Ion drives, must SW ships do anyway, but they are far more advanced than what we build now. I could say the actual LASER weapons in SW bares a extreme resemblance to what use now since in ICS they show the optical cavity the lasing process takes place in.

Ooh, ooh, I have something for this!

The TIE panels are BOTH solar collectors AND radiators!

We know that new TIEs have enhanced power packs compared to old TIEs. During low energy operation, the panels are black, collecting light and topping off (or reducing drain on) the power pack. During higher intensity operations, the panels switch to radiators, releasing heat from the power pack as it suppliescombat power to engines and shields.

In the movie, we only see TIEs in "combat mode", because even on escort duty, they have reactors in a combat state to more rapidly respond to threats. A squadron on patrol might only a quarter of its fighters "hot" at any given time.

Historical precedent for this mode of operation is seen in fossil fuel powered submarines. Most of the time they ran on their motors, charging their batteries, but under threat or on attack, they would run on batteries so they could dive.

Ooh, ooh, I have something for this!

The TIE panels are BOTH solar collectors AND radiators!

We know that new TIEs have enhanced power packs compared to old TIEs. During low energy operation, the panels are black, collecting light and topping off (or reducing drain on) the power pack. During higher intensity operations, the panels switch to radiators, releasing heat from the power pack as it suppliescombat power to engines and shields.

In the movie, we only see TIEs in "combat mode", because even on escort duty, they have reactors in a combat state to more rapidly respond to threats. A squadron on patrol might only a quarter of its fighters "hot" at any given time.

Historical precedent for this mode of operation is seen in fossil fuel powered submarines. Most of the time they ran on their motors, charging their batteries, but under threat or on attack, they would run on batteries so they could dive.

I thought it was only the elite version that huge non-solar reactors. The only reason I can think that they would keep the pannels is for protective reasons.

Ooh, ooh, I have something for this!

The TIE panels are BOTH solar collectors AND radiators!

We know that new TIEs have enhanced power packs compared to old TIEs. During low energy operation, the panels are black, collecting light and topping off (or reducing drain on) the power pack. During higher intensity operations, the panels switch to radiators, releasing heat from the power pack as it suppliescombat power to engines and shields.

In the movie, we only see TIEs in "combat mode", because even on escort duty, they have reactors in a combat state to more rapidly respond to threats. A squadron on patrol might only a quarter of its fighters "hot" at any given time.

Historical precedent for this mode of operation is seen in fossil fuel powered submarines. Most of the time they ran on their motors, charging their batteries, but under threat or on attack, they would run on batteries so they could dive.

I thought it was only the elite version that huge non-solar reactors. The only reason I can think that they would keep the pannels is for protective reasons.

When I said power pack, I was thinking batteries or some other energy storage medium, not necessarily a reactor that uses fuel. Batteries or their equivalent are probably cheaper and lighter than a reactor, which is appropriate for a short range fighter. I also thing the standard version must have a greater ability to store and produce power for its systems compared to the original TIE fighter, because it has more capabilities.

Look, we all understand that the vast majority of 'reference' material states TIEs have solar panels, as well as lasers. Neither of these technologies seem to behave like our contemporary lasers and solar collectors. So I'm just gonna give up and say it doesn't matter, all this crap is just crap and there's no scientific merit in analyzing anything in SW. The continuity watchdogs can explain away all the stupidity they want to with as many ICS and other books they can crank out.

But they were written by theortical physicist... As far as the LASERs go I am pretty sure they are hardlight lasers. So far the creation of real hardlight hasnt been labled a fraud. By making a hardlight laser bolt your making a laser that shouldnt naturally defuse, can travel farther distances while requiring less energy compared to traditional lasers used today, AND because its shapped into a bolt it could/should have more photons per square inch.

...

Also, I would like to add a note that I'm well aware that canonical material and official reference guides unequivocally refer to TIE wings as "solar panels" powering "solar reactors" to energize the ion drives. I wrote up that little essay to say, "those references are wrong/misleading in universe, and here's why-" because the only part of that system that bears a serious resemblance to modern science is the ion drive

I'm considering starting another topic to address how the cosmic radiation/dark energy might be incorporated into the existence of apparent "jet intakes" on the miscellaneous-wing Fighters. Perhaps add some ether theory that explains why they move like atmospheric aircraft?

My question is for the bolded area. Why...? They may have Ion drives, must SW ships do anyway, but they are far more advanced than what we build now. I could say the actual LASER weapons in SW bares a extreme resemblance to what use now since in ICS they show the optical cavity the lasing process takes place in.

That bolded area is saying that the Ion Drive is the only component of the new TIE fighters that I can easily accept. The part I have trouble with is the white solar panels, I'm suggesting that the reference material that refers to "solar panels" is the part that is using a colloquial/layman's term for a component that's getting energy from more than just the sparse photons in deep space

P.S. I kind of like Biophysical's explanation too, you could have movable slats over the panels so they are better protected during combat plus radiators, then they change angle to allow in energy when cruising.

Edited by nitrobenz