None of the RPGs got Starships correct. FFG isn't bad but still a bit kludgy, D6 was probably the best of the bunch (and even that is damming with faint praise) and WotC was goddamned unplayable.
So weird that a franchise that centers so much around vehicle combat stumbles so bad when implementing vehicle combat.
I think the Chase rules work quite well, but i am curios if anyone knows of any RPG where vehicle combat was well to very well executed
I think the Chase rules work quite well, but i am curios [sic] if anyone knows of any RPG where vehicle combat was well to very well executed
I don't believe there is such a thing. I'm no expert, but I've played a lot of RPGs of various types and I've never seen one where 3D combat was well done. A few have had decent mechanics for ground vehicles (or at least, the vehicle mechanics weren't any worse than the rest of the game), but once you introduce that Z axis it all goes to hell.
It's almost like the desire for fidelity in our 3D battle representation is mutually exclusive with entertaining RPG rulesets. I understand that there are some battle simulations that handle altitude fairly well, but they're not RPGs. The unicorn could be out there, but I've never seen it.
I think the Chase rules work quite well, but i am curios [sic] if anyone knows of any RPG where vehicle combat was well to very well executed
I don't believe there is such a thing. I'm no expert, but I've played a lot of RPGs of various types and I've never seen one where 3D combat was well done. A few have had decent mechanics for ground vehicles (or at least, the vehicle mechanics weren't any worse than the rest of the game), but once you introduce that Z axis it all goes to hell.
It's almost like the desire for fidelity in our 3D battle representation is mutually exclusive with entertaining RPG rulesets. I understand that there are some battle simulations that handle altitude fairly well, but they're not RPGs. The unicorn could be out there, but I've never seen it.
I recall a space combat game that was played on a 2D hex mat, but with varying "levels" in each hex to represent a 3rd dimension. It didn't really add anything to enjoyment in my opinion.
Was it Star Cruiser, the advanced space combat rules for 2300 AD? I DO recall liking Star Cruiser (added boxed set, not the core book) as working quite nicely, but I can't recall without digging in my basement if it was the one with 3D levels. It was more like modern naval combat in space. Strategic maneuvering trying to hide and get the first shots off. Little in the way of dogfighting.
Transhuman Space had (in my opinion) more realistic space combat rules. Vectors and fuel management regarding course corrections. Not something that would mesh well with space fantasy.
2d seems easy, but we as a species struggle to visualise a 3D space, at best arbitrarily assigning multiple 2d levels. I think with enough practice we can change the way we think, but having an entire table of people be able to slip into it once a week/fortnight/month is a huge barrier. That's probably why the chase rules seem better, they define the scenario in a much more controlled way.
2d seems easy, but we as a species struggle to visualise a 3D space, at best arbitrarily assigning multiple 2d levels. I think with enough practice we can change the way we think, but having an entire table of people be able to slip into it once a week/fortnight/month is a huge barrier. That's probably why the chase rules seem better, they define the scenario in a much more controlled way.
Maybe I am missing something, but what is a issue that 2D vs 3D? The system is so abstract that detailed positioning is irrelevant anyway and everything can be represented in a 3D grid just fine, which than again can be broken down to a 2D hex field for position relative to 2 objects in space.
The chase rules at the other hand throw all this out of the window and just ask you to roll against piloting and compare results and let that speed 1 one freighter outrun that speed 9 A-Wing, because that freighter pilot rolled one more 7 successes while the A-Wing rolled just 6. And yeah, that A-Wing totally did overshoot his target and should have been going for speed 2, which would have gave him more successes and allowed him to close the distance, so it is not all that bad, but it is a clear break of the other established systems.
The whole movement system in general has such issues, for example engaged heavy weapon guys just use two maneuvers to disengage and get some distance, while there is no mechanic in place to keep following someone who you attack in melee combat. No checks, no nothing, which gives those autoblaster weapons a huge buff even in brawl.
Allow me to preface by saying that I know almost nothing about the FFG Star Wars RPG in any flavor. Here's some backstory:
My RPG group is playing through the old Saga Rules module Dawn of Defiance. We're long-time d20 afficionados and experienced role-players (10-20+ years). We're getting to the point in the campaign where we're starting to accrue prestige class levels and experience a significant power jump. Three of the five PCs are Force-sensitive, though none are actually Jedi. The Saga Force rules are pretty good, in my opinion, but admittedly far from perfect. Several powers could probably be combined, and the use of skill rolls in place of attacks is kind of broken (we're working on house-ruling that). One of the players is not a fan of the "encounter power" format, and wants to push a pool-type power usage through. Otherwise, the rules are decent with two caveats: 1) Higher-level fights tend to get a bit monotonous, as damage output does not increase nearly as rapidly as HP and 2) Space combat is great (if deadly) for fighters & freighters, but absolutely terrible for any capital ships.
What I'm asking is this: is the Force & Destiny system going to appeal to any of my players? Aside from the Force powers, how well does the FFG system handle things like starfighter combat? How well will we be able to convert over our current multi-class characters to the FFG system? Is it worth it to buy in, and try to convert to a "living" system from our current "dead" one?
I'd appreciate any experiences and thoughts you might have. I've been around on the X-Wing & Armada boards, but this is my first foray into the RPG side - I'm hoping the community here is as supportive & positive.
It's worth it.
We used to play on Saga edition as well. And because you gain no HP upgrades... well almost none (just some minor ones), you can be sure the fights won't drag out in a boring way atleast with these rules. And I like the more "story based" approach, because it really puts more emphasis on roleplaying.
I agree with the points about the system's shortcomings re space combat. So much so that I'm tempted to propose to a new group a colonist-based mini campaign that totally eschews space travel (taking the 'Star' out of 'Wars', I guess). That said, as soon as the moment for space combat rolls around, you could always kick your collective swivel chairs over to an adjacent table and resolve the differences between good guys and bad guys with a game of X-Wing
I agree with the points about the system's shortcomings re space combat. So much so that I'm tempted to propose to a new group a colonist-based mini campaign that totally eschews space travel (taking the 'Star' out of 'Wars', I guess). That said, as soon as the moment for space combat rolls around, you could always kick your collective swivel chairs over to an adjacent table and resolve the differences between good guys and bad guys with a game of X-Wing
While a good idea, it would short-change any Pilot-centric PC's from the tabletop version of FFG, since their piloting talents wouldn't translate into the X-Wing game mechanics. If nobody was a pilot then sure, no problem, as everyone would be equally skilled.
I agree with the points about the system's shortcomings re space combat. So much so that I'm tempted to propose to a new group a colonist-based mini campaign that totally eschews space travel (taking the 'Star' out of 'Wars', I guess). That said, as soon as the moment for space combat rolls around, you could always kick your collective swivel chairs over to an adjacent table and resolve the differences between good guys and bad guys with a game of X-Wing
While a good idea, it would short-change any Pilot-centric PC's from the tabletop version of FFG, since their piloting talents wouldn't translate into the X-Wing game mechanics. If nobody was a pilot then sure, no problem, as everyone would be equally skilled.
Pilot skill baby, each green dice gives you one PS and each upgrade adds another one, brilliant evasion, boost, barrel roll as talents, crews with special 'abilities' aka support actions from the RPG, and for hp and weapons you take as well the basic rpg rules. I mean that K-Turn is even a hotshot talent. You just need to add a few more and you should be fine, converting to a mixed system should be indeed possible.
Though I really, really like the starship combat system, so I have no need to grab my X-Wing minis
