So much sugar

What's the cooking time for that?

Shouldn't you be called Video Weasel?

Mind. Blown.

The complete top8 taking draws last round is just a rare situation, have played tons of mtg tournaments with last round IDs always on the table and have never experienced a full top IDing because the situation is abnormal. Usually what happens is that 2 or 3 tables at max get the ID and the other tables have to play to get the spots still undecided.

I dont think its a bad rule, i dont think the problem is IDing. For all the people claiming that ID kills competitive play just ask for a different format rather for the removal of something that happens that is beneficial for both parties y a competitive enviroment.

I also like PGS point of view, as i also play to win and try to do my best to WAAC. The difference is the assumption that WAAC goes against the rules and the politeness of a player.

If the best players of a tournmanet get the situation to ID to ensure the top cut i prefer to have them on the top rather than the one submarining. Even if PHeaver lost the second round and prefers other players to play instead of drawing to have the opportunity to reach the cut.

I just like to play good lists, i copy them if i think they are good, i test them and try to get maximum value every time. I am not a ***** and i prefer other competitive players rather than those that cry because you brought a broken list.

You are misusing the phrase "win at all costs." You should be saying TMBTW (try my best to win). There is nothing wrong with TMBTW. WAAC means you will win at ALL costs, including losing your morals, ethics, and trust. It means you are willing to cheat to win. You are willing to distract the other person or seedplay to get an advantage. All of that is covered under WAAC. If you truly play to win at all costs, then you don't belong in this community and we don't want you. If, however, you simply made a mistake and meant to say TMBTW, then I have no issue with you. But people need to stop trying to defend WAAC because it's not a position worth defending.

If that is your definition, I don't see what WAAC has to do with the issue of IDs....

The players who ID'ed did nothing wrong, ethically or otherwise.

Did they agree with their opponents to manufacture an outcome that otherwise would not have occurred in order to prevent their slipping in the standings?

If you say that they did, which you have to, then you have to be able to distinguish between agreeing to draw and agreeing for one player to lose. A lot of people think that such an action is unfair to the other competitors. If the only distinction that you have is that one is permitted by the rules and the other is not, so the permitted act is fair, then you are standimg on very shaky ground.

You mean like a player conceding the game giving their opponent full MOV and points? which is also legal?

I don't think this is shaky at all. As long as one player is not benefiting outside the bounds of the tournament, I don't see an issue.

So much going on here:

the great majority of comments I read here is from ppl against ID, and the corporate speech is "some players are not happy".

The players that are happy, and more importantly most of those who could care less, just aren't going to be as vocal. They also aren't the ones waving pitchforks in the air ready to staba anyone who doesn't agree with them just because they are angry.

So, what would the effect be of offering a bye in the first elimination round to the top 2 seeds?

Con: You exclude 2 players from the elimination rounds.

Pro: Pretty much everyone has something to play for in the final round of Swiss.

This is certainly an entertaining thought. "We want to do away with the ID because it can keep people from making the cut who MAY otherwise have had a chance at it," turns into "lets make the cut smaller so we FORCE more people to have a reason to play the last round(s) of swiss."

I guess if this were applied at Roanoke the two undefeateds could STILL draw into those two bye positions in the elimination rounds so that didn't help. I guess that would have meant the next three tables would have all wanted to play as those six spots have now become 4 spots. Of course three of those spots would be filled by the winners of those three games but it may force one spot to become vulnerable to the 3-2 jackals who manage to win that last round. An interesting things here is that if one of those 4-1 pairs decides to draw while the other two play they both make it into the cut! So now you could see 2/4 pairs just drawing into the now smaller cut and the 3-2s are still shut out. Does look like you've gained anything.

After the comment about bringing a blaster to the next tournament I can start to see why that may be desirable after all of the unreasonable hate spewing from this board on the topic.

It's really funny how there are calls that all of the Roanoke top 8 colluded to draw but now someone wants to suggest that an entire Regional just ID every game just to make a point. If you want to call someone for collusion anyone who'd suggest that seems like a perfect choice; considering the scale maybe a 5 year ban would be good except they may be running away anyhow. Of course if there is an odd number it wouldn't work because you'd have all of the bye winners. Then you'd have everyone who realizes just how ridiculous the idea is and who would rather play anyway.

Did they agree with their opponents to manufacture an outcome that otherwise would not have occurred in order to prevent their slipping in the standings?

If you say that they did, which you have to, then you have to be able to distinguish between agreeing to draw and agreeing for one player to lose. A lot of people think that such an action is unfair to the other competitors. If the only distinction that you have is that one is permitted by the rules and the other is not, so the permitted act is fair, then you are standimg on very shaky ground.

You mean like a player conceding the game giving their opponent full MOV and points? which is also legal?

I don't think this is shaky at all. As long as one player is not benefiting outside the bounds of the tournament, I don't see an issue.

Well then you aren't thinking very hard at all. Something being in the rules doesn't necessarily make it fair, even if all of the players consent to it. There are plenty of competitions that incorporate rules that are not fair. Imagine a rule that said that the TO could select a single player at the beginning of the tournament and, instead of a bye, could issue them a loss for the first round. Would that be fair? How about another rule that said that people who have both brown eyes and blond hair have to fly at least one X-Wing when competing in a X-Wing Store Championships. Would that be fair? You may be breaking the letters H, Y, P, E, R, B, O, L, and E off your keyboard from typing them so hard in response to those, but the point that rules are not automatically fair stands regardless as to whether or not you like the examples.

I wonder when the "Official" official announcement/statement will be released, later today in the US maybe but more likely next couple of days

I wonder when the "Official" official announcement/statement will be released, later today in the US maybe but more likely next couple of days

I am hoping that the longer it takes the more carefully considered the solution will be and we will not just get the "Get used to it" answer......

Mmmmmmm.....Definitely going to give this one a go, even if it is not as eggsellent as the others A_W.

hey maybe G. Lucas can shoot a new version of the original trilogy, where Luke falls in the rancor pit, instead of fighting it out, the rancor and Luke agree to make an ID

it will be rare to see a tournament without an ID take place. Almost always the undefeateds going into the last round (of which there should only be 2) will draw. But then again, it largely won't matter to anyone else.

I'm predicting at least one ID at every tournament from here onward. There will never be a situation where it's not the "right" choice for at least the top table.

As for it affecting anyone else - it will always affect the people at the table just below the top cut level. For example, if the cut is to 8, then an ID at table 1 makes the outcome of table 5 irrelevant. Same thing for a cut to 16 and table 9, etc.

Are there situations where the results of that table wouldn't have mattered, anyway? Possibly. More often than not, however, at least one of the players at that just-under-cut table would have been in a tie with the loser of the top table if they had won and the top table had actually played.

IDs will happen in every tournament. They will almost always kick at least one player out of contention for the cut.

You obv have no idea about MtG.

It is neither pay to win (unless you count X-Wing pay to win as well), nor are draws extremely common (unless you count IDs at the competitive level).

LOL you're funny.

I've spent less on my entire collection for X-Wing than the price of a typical deck in Standard right now. Me and all my friends combined have spent less than the price of most Modern decks. Magic is as pay-to-win as a game can get. Cards that are better in tournaments literally cost more to obtain.

The X-Wing equivalent would be if FFG produced a limited number of each ship and then never made another product run. Imagine if TIE Interceptors cost $100 used because that's the only way you could reliably get your hands on one to be able to play Soontir.

Your other statement is pretty laughable, too. Are natural draws common in Magic? Perhaps not, depending on your definition of common. No matter how you define it, though, they are vastly more common in Magic than they are in X-Wing. In a year of playing, I've never seen a game of X-Wing result in a natural draw. I can't even recall having heard of one happen to someone except from reports online. In Magic, I've had numerous natural draws happen to me personally and I see them occur regularly. A natural draw in Magic is orders of magnitude more common than one in X-Wing.

You obv have no idea about MtG.

It is neither pay to win (unless you count X-Wing pay to win as well), nor are draws extremely common (unless you count IDs at the competitive level).

LOL you're funny.

I've spent less on my entire collection for X-Wing than the price of a typical deck in Standard right now. Me and all my friends combined have spent less than the price of most Modern decks. Magic is as pay-to-win as a game can get. Cards that are better in tournaments literally cost more to obtain.

The X-Wing equivalent would be if FFG produced a limited number of each ship and then never made another product run. Imagine if TIE Interceptors cost $100 used because that's the only way you could reliably get your hands on one to be able to play Soontir.

Your other statement is pretty laughable, too. Are natural draws common in Magic? Perhaps not, depending on your definition of common. No matter how you define it, though, they are vastly more common in Magic than they are in X-Wing. In a year of playing, I've never seen a game of X-Wing result in a natural draw. I can't even recall having heard of one happen to someone except from reports online. In Magic, I've had numerous natural draws happen to me personally and I see them occur regularly. A natural draw in Magic is orders of magnitude more common than one in X-Wing.

Magic is not pay-to-win. It is an expensive game but not pay-to-win, thats why magic have consistent pro players, they are good playing the game. Everybody competing in magic at high stages spend the money to build the best decks, so its not pay-to-win, it is just not cheap. And also draws are not common at all, usually only happens in last rounds as Reaver stated, there have been some expansions in which control decks have been broken and you see more draws than usual, but that is just that iteration. You are misleading people with those statements.

Also your equivalent is incorrect, in magic there is not a limited number of any card while it is in printing. A pay-to-win game would be something similar as atack wing did creating new cards for tournament prize that you can only obtain there and they are the best ones.

You obv have no idea about MtG.

It is neither pay to win (unless you count X-Wing pay to win as well), nor are draws extremely common (unless you count IDs at the competitive level).

LOL you're funny.

I've spent less on my entire collection for X-Wing than the price of a typical deck in Standard right now. Me and all my friends combined have spent less than the price of most Modern decks. Magic is as pay-to-win as a game can get. Cards that are better in tournaments literally cost more to obtain.

The X-Wing equivalent would be if FFG produced a limited number of each ship and then never made another product run. Imagine if TIE Interceptors cost $100 used because that's the only way you could reliably get your hands on one to be able to play Soontir.

Your other statement is pretty laughable, too. Are natural draws common in Magic? Perhaps not, depending on your definition of common. No matter how you define it, though, they are vastly more common in Magic than they are in X-Wing. In a year of playing, I've never seen a game of X-Wing result in a natural draw. I can't even recall having heard of one happen to someone except from reports online. In Magic, I've had numerous natural draws happen to me personally and I see them occur regularly. A natural draw in Magic is orders of magnitude more common than one in X-Wing.

I stopped playing MTG when they started to ban all my 2nd and 3rd edition cards, but your claim really true? Because as I said, they banned all my good cards from tournament play anyway and made them legal only after they started reprinting them in different editions. So it is really that hard to get the cards? Buy 2 or 3 displays of each edition and you should have plenty of spare cards for more or less very deck you care about …

You obv have no idea about MtG.

It is neither pay to win (unless you count X-Wing pay to win as well), nor are draws extremely common (unless you count IDs at the competitive level).

LOL you're funny.

I've spent less on my entire collection for X-Wing than the price of a typical deck in Standard right now. Me and all my friends combined have spent less than the price of most Modern decks. Magic is as pay-to-win as a game can get. Cards that are better in tournaments literally cost more to obtain.

The X-Wing equivalent would be if FFG produced a limited number of each ship and then never made another product run. Imagine if TIE Interceptors cost $100 used because that's the only way you could reliably get your hands on one to be able to play Soontir.

Your other statement is pretty laughable, too. Are natural draws common in Magic? Perhaps not, depending on your definition of common. No matter how you define it, though, they are vastly more common in Magic than they are in X-Wing. In a year of playing, I've never seen a game of X-Wing result in a natural draw. I can't even recall having heard of one happen to someone except from reports online. In Magic, I've had numerous natural draws happen to me personally and I see them occur regularly. A natural draw in Magic is orders of magnitude more common than one in X-Wing.

Magic is not pay-to-win. It is an expensive game but not pay-to-win, thats why magic have consistent pro players, they are good playing the game. Everybody competing in magic at high stages spend the money to build the best decks, so its not pay-to-win, it is just not cheap. And also draws are not common at all, usually only happens in last rounds as Reaver stated, there have been some expansions in which control decks have been broken and you see more draws than usual, but that is just that iteration. You are misleading people with those statements.

Also your equivalent is incorrect, in magic there is not a limited number of any card while it is in printing. A pay-to-win game would be something similar as atack wing did creating new cards for tournament prize that you can only obtain there and they are the best ones.

They make far less Mythic Rares than Common cards and it isn't by chance that Mythic Rare's are on average much stronger cards. There is definitely an element of pay to win. Of course there is plenty of skill as well...

You obv have no idea about MtG.

It is neither pay to win (unless you count X-Wing pay to win as well), nor are draws extremely common (unless you count IDs at the competitive level).

LOL you're funny.

I've spent less on my entire collection for X-Wing than the price of a typical deck in Standard right now. Me and all my friends combined have spent less than the price of most Modern decks. Magic is as pay-to-win as a game can get. Cards that are better in tournaments literally cost more to obtain.

The X-Wing equivalent would be if FFG produced a limited number of each ship and then never made another product run. Imagine if TIE Interceptors cost $100 used because that's the only way you could reliably get your hands on one to be able to play Soontir.

Your other statement is pretty laughable, too. Are natural draws common in Magic? Perhaps not, depending on your definition of common. No matter how you define it, though, they are vastly more common in Magic than they are in X-Wing. In a year of playing, I've never seen a game of X-Wing result in a natural draw. I can't even recall having heard of one happen to someone except from reports online. In Magic, I've had numerous natural draws happen to me personally and I see them occur regularly. A natural draw in Magic is orders of magnitude more common than one in X-Wing.

If you cant see the difference between expensive and pay to win there is no point in arguing. Magic is a much more expensive hobby that is currently plagued by the reprint policy of WotC and by speculators.

A Tie Interceptor could become a 100$ ship in a few years if FFG never reprints them and new players have a hard time to pick it up. Does that make X-Wing a pay to win game? Of course not.

Again natural draws are not extremely commen as was suggested. Are they more common than in X-Wing? Sure. But if i look at any Pro Tour or Grand Prix there are only a few that happen oustide of the last round (IDs).

And those tournaments got 500 to 2000 and sometimes even more players.

Now if you Gradauted Cut straight into the Elimination Cut (Ie. - less over-all Swiss rounds, with the top players getting a first round of cut Bye) that would be more interesting, and do away with IDs, since players a motivated to finish the Swiss well to earn the right to a Bye in the Elimination rounds.

I'll say this again.

You want to force people to play a round where a loss could result in them being eliminated so they do not have to play in a round where a loss would eliminate them.

No. We want all people to PLAY in all designated rounds, unless it doesn't affect other players.

That is it. That is all.

And that is what is fair.

How can people not get this simple underlying concept?

The complete top8 taking draws last round is just a rare situation, have played tons of mtg tournaments with last round IDs always on the table and have never experienced a full top IDing because the situation is abnormal. Usually what happens is that 2 or 3 tables at max get the ID and the other tables have to play to get the spots still undecided.

I dont think its a bad rule, i dont think the problem is IDing. For all the people claiming that ID kills competitive play just ask for a different format rather for the removal of something that happens that is beneficial for both parties y a competitive enviroment.

I also like PGS point of view, as i also play to win and try to do my best to WAAC. The difference is the assumption that WAAC goes against the rules and the politeness of a player.

If the best players of a tournmanet get the situation to ID to ensure the top cut i prefer to have them on the top rather than the one submarining. Even if PHeaver lost the second round and prefers other players to play instead of drawing to have the opportunity to reach the cut.

I just like to play good lists, i copy them if i think they are good, i test them and try to get maximum value every time. I am not a ***** and i prefer other competitive players rather than those that cry because you brought a broken list.

You are misusing the phrase "win at all costs." You should be saying TMBTW (try my best to win). There is nothing wrong with TMBTW. WAAC means you will win at ALL costs, including losing your morals, ethics, and trust. It means you are willing to cheat to win. You are willing to distract the other person or seedplay to get an advantage. All of that is covered under WAAC. If you truly play to win at all costs, then you don't belong in this community and we don't want you. If, however, you simply made a mistake and meant to say TMBTW, then I have no issue with you. But people need to stop trying to defend WAAC because it's not a position worth defending.

If that is your definition, I don't see what WAAC has to do with the issue of IDs....

The players who ID'ed did nothing wrong, ethically or otherwise.

Locking two people who would of made the top 8 out by taking the ID is not ethical, using the rules to gain an unfair advantage like that never can be.

If all 8 would of been in anyway there would be no outcry but that's not the case two of the Roanoke 8 would not of made the cut.

it will be rare to see a tournament without an ID take place. Almost always the undefeateds going into the last round (of which there should only be 2) will draw. But then again, it largely won't matter to anyone else.

I'm predicting at least one ID at every tournament from here onward. There will never be a situation where it's not the "right" choice for at least the top table.

As for it affecting anyone else - it will always affect the people at the table just below the top cut level. For example, if the cut is to 8, then an ID at table 1 makes the outcome of table 5 irrelevant. Same thing for a cut to 16 and table 9, etc.

Are there situations where the results of that table wouldn't have mattered, anyway? Possibly. More often than not, however, at least one of the players at that just-under-cut table would have been in a tie with the loser of the top table if they had won and the top table had actually played.

IDs will happen in every tournament. They will almost always kick at least one player out of contention for the cut.

That really, really isn't how intentional draws work. Most of the time, the top table will make the cut anyway. So they are not kicking someone out of the cut, nor is the results of table x not important unless you have the situation we saw in Roanoke.

Honestly I don't think IDs need to be such the big deal that they are right now. Coming from years of playing Magic, where IDs are an extremely common occurrence (in a game where drawing is just as unlikely as in X-Wing), it is just something I always assumed was a given for competitive play in any game.

People will game the system if it isn't acceptable to just ID, flying in circles as so many have pointed out. If the top 8 of Roanoke had all just flown in circles for the 75 minutes, it would have had the same effect, but no one would be talking about it. It just saves time if you can go up to a TO and say "we'd like to ID."

Here, take this as an example. In Magic there are certain combinations of cards that, when all are in play, will result in an infinite combo of some sort through interactions. Now, instead of sitting there and repeating the combo a million times (which is physically impractical), the player may demonstrate the combo once, and then state that he is repeating it X number of times.

IDs are just two players stating that they are flying in circles for 75 minutes.

The complete top8 taking draws last round is just a rare situation, have played tons of mtg tournaments with last round IDs always on the table and have never experienced a full top IDing because the situation is abnormal. Usually what happens is that 2 or 3 tables at max get the ID and the other tables have to play to get the spots still undecided.

I dont think its a bad rule, i dont think the problem is IDing. For all the people claiming that ID kills competitive play just ask for a different format rather for the removal of something that happens that is beneficial for both parties y a competitive enviroment.

I also like PGS point of view, as i also play to win and try to do my best to WAAC. The difference is the assumption that WAAC goes against the rules and the politeness of a player.

If the best players of a tournmanet get the situation to ID to ensure the top cut i prefer to have them on the top rather than the one submarining. Even if PHeaver lost the second round and prefers other players to play instead of drawing to have the opportunity to reach the cut.

I just like to play good lists, i copy them if i think they are good, i test them and try to get maximum value every time. I am not a ***** and i prefer other competitive players rather than those that cry because you brought a broken list.

You are misusing the phrase "win at all costs." You should be saying TMBTW (try my best to win). There is nothing wrong with TMBTW. WAAC means you will win at ALL costs, including losing your morals, ethics, and trust. It means you are willing to cheat to win. You are willing to distract the other person or seedplay to get an advantage. All of that is covered under WAAC. If you truly play to win at all costs, then you don't belong in this community and we don't want you. If, however, you simply made a mistake and meant to say TMBTW, then I have no issue with you. But people need to stop trying to defend WAAC because it's not a position worth defending.

If that is your definition, I don't see what WAAC has to do with the issue of IDs....

The players who ID'ed did nothing wrong, ethically or otherwise.

Locking two people who would of made the top 8 out by taking the ID is not ethical, using the rules to gain an unfair advantage like that never can be.

If all 8 would of been in anyway there would be no outcry but that's not the case two of the Roanoke 8 would not of made the cut.

Indeed, a lot people even claimed that ID is fine, because no TO would allow IDs if that kind of collusion would kick someone else out, yet just a week or so later we see exactly this happen, and not just once.

Honestly I don't think IDs need to be such the big deal that they are right now. Coming from years of playing Magic, where IDs are an extremely common occurrence (in a game where drawing is just as unlikely as in X-Wing), it is just something I always assumed was a given for competitive play in any game.

People will game the system if it isn't acceptable to just ID, flying in circles as so many have pointed out. If the top 8 of Roanoke had all just flown in circles for the 75 minutes, it would have had the same effect, but no one would be talking about it. It just saves time if you can go up to a TO and say "we'd like to ID."

Here, take this as an example. In Magic there are certain combinations of cards that, when all are in play, will result in an infinite combo of some sort through interactions. Now, instead of sitting there and repeatinghe the combo a million times (which is physically impractical), the player may demonstrate the combo once, and then state that he is repeating it X number of times.

IDs are just two players stating that they are flying in circles for 75 minutes.

There are two separate things though. ID's and draws themselves. Get rid of draws and you get rid of the need for IDs. I think that is the desire of most people and a win/win situation (no I don't mean both players get a win!).

Honestly I don't think IDs need to be such the big deal that they are right now. Coming from years of playing Magic, where IDs are an extremely common occurrence (in a game where drawing is just as unlikely as in X-Wing), it is just something I always assumed was a given for competitive play in any game.

People will game the system if it isn't acceptable to just ID, flying in circles as so many have pointed out. If the top 8 of Roanoke had all just flown in circles for the 75 minutes, it would have had the same effect, but no one would be talking about it. It just saves time if you can go up to a TO and say "we'd like to ID."

Here, take this as an example. In Magic there are certain combinations of cards that, when all are in play, will result in an infinite combo of some sort through interactions. Now, instead of sitting there and repeatinghe the combo a million times (which is physically impractical), the player may demonstrate the combo once, and then state that he is repeating it X number of times.

IDs are just two players stating that they are flying in circles for 75 minutes.

There are two separate things though. ID's and draws themselves. Get rid of draws and you get rid of the need for IDs. I think that is the desire of most people and a win/win situation (no I don't mean both players get a win!).

But there isn't really a way to get rid of draws... They happen sometimes and it is pretty much unavoidable.

The complete top8 taking draws last round is just a rare situation, have played tons of mtg tournaments with last round IDs always on the table and have never experienced a full top IDing because the situation is abnormal. Usually what happens is that 2 or 3 tables at max get the ID and the other tables have to play to get the spots still undecided.

I dont think its a bad rule, i dont think the problem is IDing. For all the people claiming that ID kills competitive play just ask for a different format rather for the removal of something that happens that is beneficial for both parties y a competitive enviroment.

I also like PGS point of view, as i also play to win and try to do my best to WAAC. The difference is the assumption that WAAC goes against the rules and the politeness of a player.

If the best players of a tournmanet get the situation to ID to ensure the top cut i prefer to have them on the top rather than the one submarining. Even if PHeaver lost the second round and prefers other players to play instead of drawing to have the opportunity to reach the cut.

I just like to play good lists, i copy them if i think they are good, i test them and try to get maximum value every time. I am not a ***** and i prefer other competitive players rather than those that cry because you brought a broken list.

You are misusing the phrase "win at all costs." You should be saying TMBTW (try my best to win). There is nothing wrong with TMBTW. WAAC means you will win at ALL costs, including losing your morals, ethics, and trust. It means you are willing to cheat to win. You are willing to distract the other person or seedplay to get an advantage. All of that is covered under WAAC. If you truly play to win at all costs, then you don't belong in this community and we don't want you. If, however, you simply made a mistake and meant to say TMBTW, then I have no issue with you. But people need to stop trying to defend WAAC because it's not a position worth defending.

If that is your definition, I don't see what WAAC has to do with the issue of IDs....

The players who ID'ed did nothing wrong, ethically or otherwise.

Locking two people who would of made the top 8 out by taking the ID is not ethical, using the rules to gain an unfair advantage like that never can be.

If all 8 would of been in anyway there would be no outcry but that's not the case two of the Roanoke 8 would not of made the cut.

Indeed, a lot people even claimed that ID is fine, because no TO would allow IDs if that kind of collusion would kick someone else out, yet just a week or so later we see exactly this happen, and not just once.

No one with one lick of sense about what an ID rule would do and when it would be most applicable would have made that statement. Certain not after FFG allowed IDs at the Hoth Open.

Though you still have a plethora of posters clinging to the idea that that any ID worth taking is somehow illegal despite the very existence of the rule and multiple FFG statements basically boiling down to, "Yes, this is a thing now".

No one should have ever been silky enough to think that A. It wouldn't come up as basic math of the event structure would tell you that or B. That FFG added it to the rules but would never allow it to be utilized in a practical manner.

The complete top8 taking draws last round is just a rare situation, have played tons of mtg tournaments with last round IDs always on the table and have never experienced a full top IDing because the situation is abnormal. Usually what happens is that 2 or 3 tables at max get the ID and the other tables have to play to get the spots still undecided.

I dont think its a bad rule, i dont think the problem is IDing. For all the people claiming that ID kills competitive play just ask for a different format rather for the removal of something that happens that is beneficial for both parties y a competitive enviroment.

I also like PGS point of view, as i also play to win and try to do my best to WAAC. The difference is the assumption that WAAC goes against the rules and the politeness of a player.

If the best players of a tournmanet get the situation to ID to ensure the top cut i prefer to have them on the top rather than the one submarining. Even if PHeaver lost the second round and prefers other players to play instead of drawing to have the opportunity to reach the cut.

I just like to play good lists, i copy them if i think they are good, i test them and try to get maximum value every time. I am not a ***** and i prefer other competitive players rather than those that cry because you brought a broken list.

You are misusing the phrase "win at all costs." You should be saying TMBTW (try my best to win). There is nothing wrong with TMBTW. WAAC means you will win at ALL costs, including losing your morals, ethics, and trust. It means you are willing to cheat to win. You are willing to distract the other person or seedplay to get an advantage. All of that is covered under WAAC. If you truly play to win at all costs, then you don't belong in this community and we don't want you. If, however, you simply made a mistake and meant to say TMBTW, then I have no issue with you. But people need to stop trying to defend WAAC because it's not a position worth defending.

If that is your definition, I don't see what WAAC has to do with the issue of IDs....

The players who ID'ed did nothing wrong, ethically or otherwise.

Locking two people who would of made the top 8 out by taking the ID is not ethical, using the rules to gain an unfair advantage like that never can be.

If all 8 would of been in anyway there would be no outcry but that's not the case two of the Roanoke 8 would not of made the cut.

It's using the rule for the exact explicit purpose of the rule. You can't call that unfair or exploration of the rule, because that is exactly the situation and purpose those that added the rule intended it to be utilized in.

But there isn't really a way to get rid of draws... They happen sometimes and it is pretty much unavoidable.