Yes, "another Roanoke thread", but this one is focused on a very specific point of procedure where I think FFG may be failing to account for something, so...let's leave all the other discussions of other aspects to other threads.

The only thing I'll refer to is the background element that leads to this - with Swiss rounds, running too few does not give you a good picture of standings for a cut to elimination, while running too many confuses the result and basically results in a round existing that many players "don't need to play" (that round should not have existed).

Part of the Roanoke issue is that they did, indeed, run "too many rounds" for the number of players in that last round.

As a reminder, FFG requirement of rounds for a 'basic structure' event are:

Number of Players/Number of Swiss Rounds/Size of Cut

4-8 / 3 / No Cut

9–16 / 4 / No Cut

17–24 / 4 / Top 4

25-40 / 5 / Top 4

41-44 / 5 / Top 8

45-76 / 6 / Top 8

So what happened, here? Well they had 45 players, so planned for 6 rounds. A player dropped, so they only had 44, which means 6 rounds would be too many.

Here is where I think FFG has an issue with the above chart - and it's easy and obvious to see from anyone who has run an event. The top limit on each bracket is an even number! This makes no sense, because of the way BYEs are issued, an ODD number of participants is nearly always the same thing as the next lower even number. IE., aside from the whole "I've never run a tournament over 32 players that didn't have at least one person drop"...with 45 players, or 25 players, or 17 players, or whatever (any odd number)...none of the rounds actually HAVE more than 44, 24, 16, etc players playing.

Given that last round is going to have the lowest-scoring person sitting there for 75 minutes doing nothing...to do nothing more the rest of the day (the last-round BYE is always simply 'out of the tournament')...how many people have seen someone willing to sit around that many more hours? In 99% of the cases I've run into of an odd number of players, the last-round BYE always drops and leaves before the event wraps.

Anyway - observations from one TO. It wouldn't fix the bigger issues, it won't fix culture problems, that it would have addressed this event is honestly as coincidental as anything, but...at least the way I see it...

• FFG should account for a small percentage of player drops as part of their groupings
• AT THE VERY LEAST, the groupings should be adjusted so each bracket ends at an odd number and starts at an even number, to account for the last-round-BYE nearly universally dropping

I don't think FFG has enough data to make reasonable conclusions. I mean, even listjuggler wouldn't be enough. You are asking for a sort of statistical analysis for a problem that isn't that big of an issue.

No. Drops do not factor in at all, nor should they. Drops do not affect the top seeded players, which is what determines the # of rounds and the size of the cut.

No. Drops do not factor in at all, nor should they. Drops do not affect the top seeded players, which is what determines the # of rounds and the size of the cut.

Except, as noted, at the very least, having an odd number starting the next bracket up is misleading, as an odd number of players registered will only ever have the next-lower even number playing, and usually always see a BYE drop along the way.

The number of rounds recommended by FFG largely eliminates the need for a statistical tool to manage drops. I'm more concerned by the intentional draw rule messing things up.

I played a tourney yesterday that had 17 people. Once I learned that it was supposed to be 4 rounds plus a top 4 I was like "**** all day for a tiny kit tourney." Mind you at least 3 people dropped after round 2, I can understand that the MOV was already taken into account from prior rounds.

Needless to say the store was closing just before top 4 was beginning. We all made a gentleman's agreement because frankly none of us wanted to be there so late (except the TO, kudos to him, he didn't mind, he would've stayed as long as there were rounds to play).

Went only 4-0 and got kit swag including the coin, though now my friends rip on by saying tie for fourth. I can understand how people want cuts and stuff, but 4 rounds did a good job to establish MOV ranking. Someone at 3-1 was going to be below the cut either way, cut or no cut.

I played a tourney yesterday that had 17 people. Once I learned that it was supposed to be 4 rounds plus a top 4 I was like "**** all day for a tiny kit tourney." Mind you at least 3 people dropped after round 2, I can understand that the MOV was already taken into account from prior rounds.

Needless to say the store was closing just before top 4 was beginning. We all made a gentleman's agreement because frankly none of us wanted to be there so late (except the TO, kudos to him, he didn't mind, he would've stayed as long as there were rounds to play).

Went only 4-0 and got kit swag including the coin, though now my friends rip on by saying tie for fourth. I can understand how people want cuts and stuff, but 4 rounds did a good job to establish MOV ranking. Someone at 3-1 was going to be below the cut either way, cut or no cut.

Collusion