Hello everyone, I've been thinking (... yes it do happen on occasion )

Im trying to visualize an idea I have for a sort of game mechanic/GM tool. Not necessarily for Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader only, since I imagine that it could be used for a wide variety of RPG's, but because those are the games im most involved with at the moment im going to base it all on those games.

I thought of this idea when I pondered over the problem of random encounters/combats that is usually added as a spice (or happens due to actions taken by the players). I like my scenarios to incorporate a lot of sandbox elements, and because of that, fighting can happen pretty much anywhere at any time. But most of the time, I have to fudge the exact topography of each location where a battle might occur because I couldn't possibly draw a map of each and every little location where the PC's might get into trouble.

Fudging these locations is probably the most common tactic for any GM, but I've noticed that sometimes you can run into some problems when doing that. Combats should be fast paced and loaded with action after all, and when you have to do it all "on the go", chances are that you might have to keep the exact nature and look of the battlefield extremely abstract and just hope that the players get the same mental image as you do during the combat in question.

The idea here is partly inspired by certain boardgames like "Zombies!!!" by Journeyman Press, or how about Games Workshops old classic "Space Hulk", where the game board isn't pre-made like in normal boardgames, but you build it, either as you go along, or as specific configurations for each session/mission dictates.

Couldn't this philosophy be converted into an awesome tool for the odd random combat that might occur during an RPG session? Like let's say that you had a number of pre-made "template maps" of with modular sizes and scales of different topographies, like corridors with adjoining rooms and doorways, intersections, alleyways with stacked boxes and garbage cans of many different configurations etc. etc.

Perhaps these template maps can even be structured into a table where each template has a set number and if the GM feels like randomizing what the location looks like s/he can just roll a d100, take a look at the chart and say:

-"Bam! That's what the place you're in looks like. You guys are here behind those crates, and the bad guys are here and every square on the map is 1*1 metre. Now roll initiative!"

Also, what if these template maps had tables describing certain "locations traits" that determine how good or poor lighting that general area has at the moment, or perhaps even more dangerous traits such as having plenty of gaslines in the area that might get ruptured by stray shots and thus rupture and spew out gouts of fire? Or perhaps a location has plenty of "nooks and crannies" which means that even if a certain wall might look "flat" on the standardized template maps, a PC or an NPC can benefit from having a set amount of cover just by standing next to those "flat" walls.

Basically, my idea here is a "shake-n-bake" system for instant battlefields for the GM's who already feel a little overwhelmed with keeping track of all those aspects that GM:ing demands and might experience difficulties in just make up random locations at the top of their head. In addition, the system could also provide a GM with inspiration for more elaborate locations by using and connecting the standardized template maps into more complex areas for those "special encounters" which the GM has prepared on beforehand.

Of course, all this might sound a little "dungeon crawley" to some of you, but that's not really my intention. This system will come with a GM-fiat disclaimer and if s/he doesn't like certain results or certain configurations of the standardized template maps, s/he can change them as he or she pleases. Indeed, the GM won't even have to reveal a map of the location at all if he/she just want to keep the players in an abstract mood, but only use this as a method to keep track of things him/herself.

What do you guys think of the idea so far? Would it be useful/helpful? All input would be appriciated.

I think this solution would be difficult to build.

EDIT:
Unless you expect FFG to pic up on the idea and sell it to us

Gregorius21778 said:

Mind extrapolating a little?

Gregorius21778 said:

A flattering propositon, but it's my idea and I intend to get something out there. The way I see it now is that it's just a compilation of a few tables, where the main table have a bunch of results, each connected to a certain map template.

Im just prodding for some more input (as of now, im trying to figure out a bunch of map templates and what default scale and size the should be in) and other ideas that might improve it.

Sounds like the Dungeon Tile sets WoTC came out with, just expanded a bit. I like the random table to generate them. I have a set of dice that does the same thing.

The Dungeon Tiles were not bad to play with but it seemed to take longer to set them up than to just sketch on a battlemat.

I like the idea, it would make handling combat in my DH games, that like yours incorperate a lot of 'sand box' elements, much easier. A suggested scale for the templates would be one square = one metre, and each template is either 5x5 squares or maybe 10x10. If using figures, then the 'standard' 25mm -28mm would work well, though so could 15-20mm figures. Each square would have a real world measerment of say 1 inch (2.5cm metric). Hexagons are also another option.

Just some ideas, hope they help.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Yes, the analogy of dungeon tiles wouldn't be too far off. The main difference with my intentions is that it's not supposed to be a mechanic specifically caterign to the use of miniatures and setting up tiles, but more of a narrative tool to help place both the GM and the players in the same mindset so that everyone can trace back to a tangible grip on what their current surroundings look like.

So it would be more of an inspirational tool for making a quick sketch on a battlemat, rather than actually going thrrough all the hassle of using tiles and minis. Because sometimes battles do happen in places the GM didn't expect. Perhaps one of the PC's become overly insulted by a business porposition of a shady drug dealer in an even more shady bar, but at that time, the only thing that the GM and the players know about the bar is that it is a bar, and that it is dark. They haven't yet established what shape the rooms are in or how many tables and chairs clutter up the enviroment or where the exits are etc.

If the GM were to determine that he hadn't really gone through these details himself, and rule that it's not that important exactly how the premises are designed, then he could get a quick boost of inspiration from just rolling a die and consult the map template chart and decide what the premises look like.

In other words, more food for the imagination to draw up quick sketches rather than painstakingly try to recreate the exact specifics like a miniature diorama of the premises in question.

Old timer said:

This is one thing that is bugging me at the moment. I've also been thinking of the "1 square = 1 metre" approach, although not specifically with use of 28 mm minis in mind yet (though some people would really like to see that).

The problem is to decide exactly how large each standardized template should be. 5x5 squares or 10x10? Should they be small enough for most player characters to easily run through in just one round of combat, or should they be large enough to take at least 3-4 turns to run across?

Guessing from the general idea, I'd opt for the latter, that each template is large enough to let PC's and NPC's run across them for several turns before "running out of room" so to speak, lest the combat might be cluttered down with the GM having to roll up new templates too often depending on what the combatants are doing. But perhaps someone would disagree with me on that one?

Also, im thinking of perhaps dividing the template maps into a set number of categories like: indoor-templates, urban outdoor-templates and non-urban outdoor-templates.

You could actually use both scales, if that does not complicate things. The 10x10 size would be good for larger areas, like plazas, churches, the manses' of the hive nobles, and rural areas. The smaller scale, 5x5, would work well for tighter areas, like lower hive tunnels, ship access ways, lower hive hab units.

I dont think generating the templates would slow things down, i would think that most GMs would generate a few areas in advance, and then add to when needed. The idea of dividing the templates into categories is a very good idea, making the templates very versitile.

Okay, im in the process of drawing up a bunch of pre-made templates of a variety of different shapes.

The current thought here is to use a standard size for all templates (10x10 squares), where the default scale is 1 square = 1 metre. But it will have support for scale shifts, where each square could be 5, 10 or even 100 metres across depending on what the GM feels is best. Meaning that some times one template with a few narrow alleyways that are by default only two meters wide, can be scaled up to become a majesticly wide promenade between two city blocks (rather than just two buildings), capable of letting scores of baneblade superheavy tanks roll alongside of eachother if the GM wishes it.

Also, I have set a goal of constructing several different tables for different kinds of templates. At the moment im constructing templates that look like they have two entrance/exit ways. Basically these particular templates will serve as good corridors, alleyways, streets and such and they will have their own chart.

But im also thinking of creating templates with three and four entrance/exit-ways, and templates that are "open" on all sides (but have a bunch of clutter and obstacles scattered about), and templates that look "closed" and where the entryways are up to the GM to decide (for use when you want a quick layout of a single room or a gigantic hold/warehouse depending on what type of scale is being used).

So the classes of the templates are currently divided between:

* rooms

* 2-way templates

* 3-way templates

* 4-way templates

* open ground

And depending on how many topography configurations I can come up with, each template class will hopefully have 100 results to choose from (one for every result on the d100 ). This means that there are at least 500 different templates to choose from (or roll up with dice on the fly), would that be enough?

Of course, if all of this is supposed to be gather into one PDF, the template maps will be rather small (I'll probably try to fit at least 6 of them on every page), and they will look rather primitive (no fancy artwork on my part since im doing it all in MS paint for ease of mass-production, but like I said the goal with this tool isn't to create accurate dioramas of the current surroundings, only as a means to gain instant inspiration for places that aren't normally mapped out by the GM on beforehand).

Of course, six of 10x10 square templates on every page will most likely be too small to use 28mm miniatures directly on top of, but due to the simplified "artwork" depicting the topography it shouldn't be too hard to blow up the templates and print them out to get the squares in the correct scale if some players prefer to do that.

Anyhow, im thinking that in order to keep the templates as easy to configure as possible, they have to be small, simplified and diverse. If they are cluttered up with unecessary that details that should be covered by the GM's and the players imagination (like drawing out individual tables and chairs in a room, or trashcans and cardboard boxes in alleyways) the main purpose will be lost.

Also, what the individual templates might lack in artistic beauty, the additional enviroment and surrounding trait charts should more than make up for it.

Any more input so far?

I personally would have no use for something like this if it was not already sized and detailed to take mineature use into account. I have no problem visualizing a scene and the utility of such a product comes from it's time-saving traits. If I can place a few premade maps on a table, add minis and go, GREAT! Anything less is just a crude map that I will simply have to draw out on a gaming board anyways, and therefore not worth the investment. 1"= 1m seems to be the standard for most of us, but justification for 1" = 2m could be made, so long as the scale is indicated on the maps.

Since I and my fellow players are fond of being able to visualize our surroundings during combat ... and since my fellow DH players are also 40K tabletop players, I think this would be a wonderful idea. When we play D&D, we also like to use Dungeon Tiles, and similar aids. What can I tell you? We like to be able to see what and where we and our opponents are, and everything else that's around us. Obviously, for those that prefer the more abstract "imagination-based" visualization, I don't know that it would be that useful.

But since all of these games have very specific rules for movement and combat and range, it seems to me - and I think for my fellow players - that for combat scenes, this would be incredibly useful. In fact, during my last DH game (as a player) we used props from the old Space Hulk game during our jaunt in Shades on Twilight. JMHO.

ZillaPrime said:

Well, the investment here would be the amount of paper needed to print the whole thing, (it's going to be "free" once im done )

Of course, this sort of aid won't be for everyone and every occasion. If you don't have any problem with visualizing random surroundings and perfectly convey these details to the players without having the battlefield be as simple as:

"Well you are standing on this side and they are standing on that side and there's roughly 60 metres between you. Go!"

But actually be an area filled with several pathways, staircases, strewn debris, trees and plants, crates, garbage cans etc. etc.

Then kudos to you my friend, I wish I could make up something like that each time my players decide to pick a fight or when they stumble across some NPC's that want to kill them.

In my group the pattern during such random encounters tend to look like the example above (you guys are standing on this side, the baddies stand on that side and this is how many metres it is between you). Because the GM has to keep track of initiative scores and a bunch of dice rolls and such, he rarely has enough time to just invent a more realistic and irregularly shaped scenery "on the fly", and if he were to try, there's a great risk that some of the players will get the wrong idea and time has to be taken away from the battle to explain the layout of the surroundings even further (which bogs the battle down of course and thus take away the sense of action).

This rarely happen when we play pre-written scenarios that actually include maps of many different areas (like Shattered Hope, Purge the Unclean campaign, Tattered Fates etc.), becuase during these scenarios everyone can just look at the map and see the scale of it and act accordingly.

So even if we don't normally use minis in our games, I've noticed that mapped surroundings can certainly help during a combat situation, and I guess this little project is intended to provide a tool for player groups that feel the same way. If you don't feel the same way and don't recognize these problems then I applaud your ability, and I wouldn't try to "fix" something for you that isn't broken.

That being said, due to the fact that the small templates will be crude in design, this will actually make it possible to blow them up to large scale and use them for 28 mm miniatures if that's what you prefer. It's just that I don't want to make a pdf that have such large templates by default (because the entire file would be several hundred pages long if I did).

So rather than having to force GM's that are just looking for help with the issues I've noticed my group to suffer from to print several hundred pages, when all they really want is a quick and randomized way for getting a crude sense of what their immediate surroundings look like when the GM hasn't mapped it out on beforehand, I'll make the collected templates crude enough to not suffer from resolution issues in case any of the groups that like to use miniatures if they want to increase the size for each template for use with minis.

This will also leave all GM's free to use different scales for the templates if they wish (i.e larger than just the "1-2 metre per square"-scale).

In any case, if you don't feel that you would need such a tool/gaming aid personally, then that's great. It's like someone who manufacture first-aid kit's for a living. Hopefully no one is going to need to use them, but if the need arise it's nice that there is one at hand.

I think that this template idea of Varnias Tybalt is going to be a very usful tool for my DH games, and i have no problem with 'blowing up' the maps to a scale suitable for 28mm minis, or any other scale of mini i use. I thank Varnias for implementing a great idea, and then making it a pdf for all to use.

Okay, since inventing countless 10x10 map templates can be rather dull in the long run (im still doing it), I decided to take a swing at some of the results that mightbe included in the accompanying "surrounding traits and hazards" chart. Here are some I've come up with so far (suggestions about stuff not already covered is of course very welcome):

Nooks and crannies

Due to uneven ground, cavernlike walls, or plenty of strewn debris in the vicininity the current location

have a large amount of obstacles to dodge behind. A character standing next to a wall on the map

template may benefit from one of four types of cover.

Either roll 1d10 or the GM choose which type of cover: 1-3 Flimsy (provides 4 additional AP), 4-6 Sturdy

(provides 8 additional AP), 7-9 Thick (provides 16 additional AP), 10 Nigh impenetrable (provides 32

additional AP). The GM may decide if the entire area has the same quality of cover or if each instance

has varying quality of cover. More rules on Cover can be found at page 199 in the Dark Heresy

rulebook.

Crawlspace

Be it a sewer opening, air-duct or naturally occuring tunnel, the current area has a hidden crawlspace

that can be spotted with a successful, passive Awareness test or active Search test, depending on the

situation. The GM can either decide where the crawlspace begins and ends on the map or roll on the

following table:

Roll 2d10 and use each result for an axis on the map template (re-roll for each axis if the crawlspace

ends up "inside" a wall or marked obstacle). This is the first entryway to the crawlspace. Roll a second

d10 and place the crawlspace exit as many squares away as the d10 shows (GM decides). If this would

cause the exitway to land outside of the current map template, then the crawlspace may be used to

escape the current area. The GM may require anyone trying to use the crawlspace to take Agility or

Contortionist tests to pass through safely or the character may become stuck inside.

Gas lines

The area is lined with either man made pipes or perhaps an alien growth of somekind that acts as

conduits for highly flammable gas! Everytime a character using a ranged weapon miss, there's a 50 %

chance that they hit one of the gas lines. Either the GM decides where the ruptured leak is inflicted or

roll 1d10 for each axis on the map template and continues rolling until the leak is located in a

reasonably logical location.

The square of the ruptured line will instantly be subjected to attack as if it had been fired at with a

hand flamer (stats for the hand flamer can be found on page 131 in the Dark Heresy rulebook) but with

a range of 4 metres and this attack will be projected in a straight line from it's point of origin (the GM

decides which direction the gout of flames shoot out towards).

Once ruptured the flames will burn continuously from the gas line until someone shuts off the valve.

The GM may decide if the current map template has a valve nearby and where it is located, or simply

roll 1d10 for each axis on the map template and roll until it ends up at a reasonably logical location.

The valve may or may not be rusted and the GM may call for a Strength check with variably penalty for

any character trying to shut the valve off.

Volatile materials

The area is littered with canisters filled with volatile materials, either stacked drums of promethium,

bottles of rotgut with high alcohol content or perhaps alien fungi that generates and stores explosive

gas in fleshy pod-like protrusions. Regardless of which, stray shots may subject combatants to an

explosive and fiery surprise if they aren't careful.

All weapons that inflict either Explosive Damage or Energy Damage (SP and Rending weapons does

not set off flammable materials normally, although the GM may beg to differ and if that's the case then

the GM is always right) or have some sort of special ability that can cause explosions or set targets on

fire have a 25-50 % chance of setting off a container of volatile materials in the vicinity (the GM decides

how densely packed these materials are and thus increase or decrease the percentage accordingly). If

it is a ranged weapon (like a lasgun or a bolter) this will only occur if the shooter missed some shots.

If it is a grenade or a flamer or a similar area of effect weapon, the 25-50 % chance will always be in

effect.

Should a canister be set off, the GM either decides or roll 1d10 for each axis on the map and

determines where the exploding canister is located, re-rolling results that would end up "inside" a wall

or impassable obstacle. The square subjected to the explosion is treated as if a frag grenade or a fire

bomb has detonated on that square (the GM decides which kind depending on what sort of materials

is in the vicinity, stats for frag grenades and fire bombs can be found on page 131 in the Dark Heresy

rulebook). In addition, if the 25-50 % chance for a "cook-off" succeeds with two degrees of success, a

secondary explosion is triggered at the edge of the blast radius of the first one. If it suceeds with

three or more degrees of success, the resulting secondary explosion has yet another 25-50 % chance

of setting off another secondary explosion! Meaning that there is a potential that the entire map

template is subjected to an explosive conflageration, regardless of which scale is being used.

Oil slick

The ground or floor of this area is particularly slippery, be it due to being covered in ice, slippery mud

or even oil, it is hard to keep ones footing. Unless a character is wearing some sort of footwear

designed to provide extra traction even on slippery surfaces, or perhaps has bionic locomotion baed

on tracks, each action that requires rapid movement of some sort (slashing with swords in melee,

moving faster than half move speed etc.) will require an Ordinary (+10) Agility test each time or the

character will lose his or her footing and become prone, and the attempted action is immediately

canceled.

However, the slick surfaces can be used to ones advantage if the character is agile enough. A

character may attempt an Acrobatics test or a hard (-20) Agility test to glide or skate across the slick

surface and thus gain an added boost to movement when running, charging or diving for cover. If the

test fails, the character loos his or her footing and becomes prone as usual. If the test succeeds

however, the character may add an extra 1d5-2 metres to his or her movement rating during that

action.

Unreliable Lighting

The area is suffering from either sporadic lightning or is held in pitched darkness, making fighting and

even seeing your enemy rather difficult. The GM rolls a d5 (or decides the result), between 1-3 the area

has sporadic lightning and between 4-5 the area is held in permanent darkness.

Sporadic lightning is rolled each turn a player acts with 1d10. An even number indicates that during

those moments, he light is bright and normal enough for the character to act normally, if the number is

odd, the character has to act as if under the penalty of darkness (for more info on how poor lightning

affects combat, see pages 198 and 216 in the Dark Heresy Rulebook). This effect may be due to

unstable power supplies to the glow lobes in the vicinity or because something is occasionally

obstructing the natural sunlight in the area (atmospheric craft flying low to the ground, large growths

of vegetation whose wind-blown leaves largely cover the natural light etc.).

If the area is held in permanent darkness, the effects for darkness are permanent in this area and if any

character wishes to improve these conditions they will have to turn on some kind of light source or

use special equipment that render poor lightning conditions irrelevant (like IR goggles or photo

visors).

Treacherous floor

Certain conditions have made the ground or floor to become unstable, and there's a risk for

characters to inadvertedly step on a part of the ground not strong enough to support their weight

and thus break through. This may be because the battle is fought over an ice field where the ice might

break and the unfortunate victim plunges through to he freezing cold liquid below, or within caves of

a heavily erroded mountain where tunnels overlap eachother with a very brittle and hin layer of rock

dividing them. Urban decay or even fires might cause buildings or streets to suffer from the same

effects.

For every metre that a character moves across, roll 1d10. If a 9 comes up, the character had the

misforune of stepping on a spot on the ground too weak to support his weight and breaks through,

and that square (or small area depending on which scale is being used) will have a permanent hole that

either lead to the floor below or can stretch for several hundred metres depending on the location

and will lead to a certain death unless the character can fly. The floor may not even be located

particularly high up either, the brittle ground might simply hide a small lake of water or even a stream

of white hot magma. It is up to the GM to decide.

For falling purposes, the GM may want to determine if the fall is superficial or not, if so then the GM

should consult the chart for falling distance and damage on page 210 in the Dark Heresy rulebook. If

the GM wish the fall to be certain death, a character should be allowed to either spend or burn a fate

point to be able to latch on to the edge of the newly formed pit, just in time to prevent a plummeting

fall. (falls like this should not be able to be prevented by a simple agility test, like it was an archetypical

trapdoor that makes a resounding click before opening up, as characters will have no way of knowing

if the ground beneath them will break up or not).

This sounds very intresting but also there are lots of resources out there with maps already draw I would like the descriptions

A thought occurs to me that if you are looking to reduce the labor of making maps on the fly but still want to have a big variety then there might be an easier way. Making modular map sections (like Wizards and Paizo have made for D&D) is certainly a good idea, but rather than making them too detailed shoot for more generic pieces. Then make a bunch of separate "map add-ons" and print them on some heavy cardstock or similar. By this I mean having cogitator banks, dumpsters, desks, piles of alleyway litter and anything else you can think of that might reasonably make an appearance on your game maps. Slap down a few "warehouse sections" map sheets, add a few extra pieces of scenery and you are ready to go. Two games later when you kick down the doors on another warehouse you can use the same mapsheet but have a totally different layout....

I have a friend who makes and sells maps and game-aids in addition to commisioned art and some game books, but I can't post a link due to the forum rules regarding advertising.