I don't think protesting and taking advantage of a rule are mutually exclusive. Just because a few nova members were genuinely using a legal way to guarantee top 8 and do not feel bad about it doesn't mean they don't also see he move as a way to push FFG to reconsider.

I think they, at least those that have spoken out, have been pretty clear that protest was not their motive.

To add, I think a taking an action that is beneficial, especially one you would have taken anyway, as a protest is misguided at best. I'm not faulting the OP for thinking that as he had only a couple of minutes, but they could have taken a different action if they'd want to send a better message. Again, not that this was their job or should have been.

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

To echo the thanks if others. It's I teresting to have your side of things.

For what it's worth, my distaste is for the rule and the precedent FFG set themselves in interpretation.

Regardless of motivation all that happened herbis that some people asked for something they thought the rules allowed and the TO agreed they could..

Forget morality. It has no bearing on this anyway IMO. I like to think I wouldn't have taken the ID but thats an easy thing to say when i wasn't there in the middle of others taking them.

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

Absolutely. They're taking advantage of information that the other players did not have. It's a double-blind format, not "you pick first and I'll counter it".

Imagine, if you will, everyone shows up to a tournament with two lists. I see you've got List A, so I decide to run List B. You don't like your odds with List A, so you switch to List B. Now I don't like my odds, so I switch to my List A. And on and on and the tournament never starts.

It is absolutely unacceptable.

To the OP: I'm sorry that you feel that you need to apologize because of the backlash caused by "casual" bullies that exist in this community.

If you're travelling hours to play in a tournament that lasts all day, play the game several times a week in a league, and then try to claim you're casual: news flash, you're not. The competition and tournament matters.

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

Absolutely. They're taking advantage of information that the other players did not have. It's a double-blind format, not "you pick first and I'll counter it".

Imagine, if you will, everyone shows up to a tournament with two lists. I see you've got List A, so I decide to run List B. You don't like your odds with List B, so you switch to List A. Now I don't like my odds, so I switch to my List A. And on and on and the tournament never starts.

It is absolutely unacceptable.

Exactly.

But competition always breeds people who want to find a way to gain an unfair advantage. Double-listing, taking an Intentional Draw, it's little different than doping was in sports before all the rules were made making doing it illegal. A lot of the guys who were cheating tried to justify it by saying "Well, it's not against the rules".

It's just human nature unfortunately. And while some people will realize that there is more to life than following rules to the letter and realize that the action is morally wrong, others will have no compunction against it.

The sad thing is that a lot of these guys are probably good enough at X-Wing that they didn't need to game the system to make the Final 8, but they still chose to do so anyway. It's an irrevocable stain on them as players, and I can see why so many of them are upset at the backlash. Before, they were just some of the better players in the game. Now they're all cheaters and their legacies are tarnished. Anderson Silva was one of the best MMA fighters ever, until he broke his leg and in his subsequent fight, he popped for PEDs. Forever will people question whether or not his six year winning streak at the prime of his career was legitimate or not. It probably was, he was 39 when he got caught a few years later, which is at least 5 years past the end of most fighters' primes. But still, that's now on his legacy.

At least the OP sounds like he's sorry about it, whether or not we believe his reasoning was what he said it was.

I don't think protesting and taking advantage of a rule are mutually exclusive. Just because a few nova members were genuinely using a legal way to guarantee top 8 and do not feel bad about it doesn't mean they don't also see he move as a way to push FFG to reconsider.

I think they, at least those that have spoken out, have been pretty clear that protest was not their motive.

To add, I think a taking an action that is beneficial, especially one you would have taken anyway, as a protest is misguided at best. I'm not faulting the OP for thinking that as he had only a couple of minutes, but they could have taken a different action if they'd want to send a better message. Again, not that this was their job or should have been.

What could he possibly have done that would have made more noise than what occurred?

Dropped? I'm just saying it's strange to look at it as some kind of protest when most players would do the exact same thing, and in fact did, when in the same situation.

i would like to say thanks as well. It seemed odd to me that all the podcasts have been radio silent in the last week. Maybe they are all ashamed of how that played out.

Come to think of it, wasn't "Nova Squadron" the name of Wesley Crusher's disgraced team in the academy? Sorry for the Star Trek reference.

I guess all that podcast talk of securing a bye was more important than anything else. I am disappointed that the big names in this game would behave this way. Makes me really want to take a step back from the podcast groups knowing they would behave like this.

i would like to say thanks as well. It seemed odd to me that all the podcasts have been radio silent in the last week. Maybe they are all ashamed of how that played out.

Come to think of it, wasn't "Nova Squadron" the name of Wesley Crusher's disgraced team in the academy? Sorry for the Star Trek reference.

I guess all that podcast talk of securing a bye was more important than anything else. I am disappointed that the big names in this game would behave this way. Makes me really want to take a step back from the podcast groups knowing they would behave like this.

The draws in question were taken less than 48 hours ago. There was a single instance of the draw being used in the previous week.

Edit: I can't believe that people are giving the Top 8 a hard time about this, and now it's totally bizarre that podcasters are being pulled in by association.

If the correct number of rounds was run based on attendance (5 in this case) we wouldnt be having this conversation.

Actually i'd like to see the end of round4 standings, because it might have just happened in round5 in that case...

Eric not making it to KY or ATL?

The correct number of rounds was used based on the starting numbers of 45.

people dropped and there was a clear top 8. i think the draw issue was exacerbated by forcing an extra, useless round on, and only could have happened because of it.

Well said sinclair5150.

Don't let the fallout discourage you from playing.

It is the game we enjoy, not the politics.

Woah woah woah. Lets hold up on the accusations towards Nova Squadron. Much like it is a fallacy to align a single individuals actions with the stance of everyone else who is a part of their faith, country, town, family, friends, and workplace, so it is here.

Nova Squadron is a very large X-wing community, and the majority of that community had nothing to do with this, and even if they had, I don't agree the issue is so cut and dry we could label them as villains anyways. It seems like we are at the point where we are now just trying to find a face on this mural that has had poop flung all over it, so we can all feel so smart and say "Ooooh, NOW we see!". If you have issues with Nova because of things they have said on their podcasts* (which those honestly don't indicate the views or tendencies of the community as a whole either), leave it at that and try not to say "Well go figure! Of course they'd do this!". It's not that simple. I have no issue with someone not liking Nova Squadron, its players, or it's media output, but this just seems to be turning into more finger pointing and poo flinging than is even necessary.

*Note that I can totally understand that, if they did actually say that about bringing two lists and then picking the counter list, it would be a reason to lose some respect. I assumed from my listening they brought two lists and determined which to fly on the way to the venue, not after reviewing other lists. I've done this personally myself, some times to my own detriment. "I've been practicing this list for months... But something just tells me I need to fly this list I came up with this morning..."

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

Absolutely. They're taking advantage of information that the other players did not have. It's a double-blind format, not "you pick first and I'll counter it".

Imagine, if you will, everyone shows up to a tournament with two lists. I see you've got List A, so I decide to run List B. You don't like your odds with List A, so you switch to List B. Now I don't like my odds, so I switch to my List A. And on and on and the tournament never starts.

It is absolutely unacceptable.

That accusation (taking two lists and scouting the field) is a pretty serious one. Was it on the podcast that they talked about this? Or are you referring to Nova Squadron members, not Nova Squadron Podcast members?

Thanks for posting this. Don't beat yourself up about it. What's done is done, and one way or that other I'm sure FFG has "gotten the message".

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times
• congratulating each other on "playing so well" when winning with said list
• and using a coin-flip to determine the outcome of not one but two games in a row at a major event (nationals, I believe)

If there's an antithesis to Fly Casual, it's those guys.

i would like to say thanks as well. It seemed odd to me that all the podcasts have been radio silent in the last week. Maybe they are all ashamed of how that played out.

Come to think of it, wasn't "Nova Squadron" the name of Wesley Crusher's disgraced team in the academy? Sorry for the Star Trek reference.

I guess all that podcast talk of securing a bye was more important than anything else. I am disappointed that the big names in this game would behave this way. Makes me really want to take a step back from the podcast groups knowing they would behave like this.

All of the larger podcasts record on a schedule, and then the cast has to be edited which adds more time. Everyone will cover this, just give it a week. S&V is recording this Wednesday and will be discussing the situation in detail, including my side of things.

*Note that I can totally understand that, if they did actually say that about bringing two lists and then picking the counter list, it would be a reason to lose some respect. I assumed from my listening they brought two lists and determined which to fly on the way to the venue, not after reviewing other lists.

Yes, this was said. It's been a while since I've listened, but it was to the effect of "saw what everyone else [the other players] was flying" then decided. So not in the car on the way there.

That accusation (taking two lists and scouting the field) is a pretty serious one. Was it on the podcast that they talked about this? Or are you referring to Nova Squadron members, not Nova Squadron Podcast members?

Podcast, yes. I apologize for seemingly implicating the entirety of NOVA Squadron (when I meant NOVA Squadron Radio).

Also, just to be clear VaeVictis, I was saying nothing about the Top 8 ID scandal, just the other tournament behaviour they have publicly admitted to.

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

I can't believe that this is even a question, sorry dude but you sound like you're trolling.

The thing I don't understand is, why arent lists submitted a week or so before the tournament? That sounds like a basic idea to me. Everyone has the interwebs, there are free Squadron builders readily available.... Seems it would cut this out. TO's go around, ensuring what they have submitted is what they are playing.

Also to the uneducated..what is the "protest" about? I am trying to get the gist of what people have said, but alas I have failed bad.

The thing that really bites is that people will find a way to cheat no matter what the game is. Is a sad indictment on the current state of play.

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

I can't believe that this is even a question, sorry dude but you sound like you're trolling.

The thing I don't understand is, why arent lists submitted a week or so before the tournament? That sounds like a basic idea to me. Everyone has the interwebs, there are free Squadron builders readily available.... Seems it would cut this out. TO's go around, ensuring what they have submitted is what they are playing.

Also to the uneducated..what is the "protest" about? I am trying to get the gist of what people have said, but alas I have failed bad.

The thing that really bites is that people will find a way to cheat no matter what the game is. Is a sad indictment on the current state of play.

I wish tourney organizers were more open to this idea. It would save time as well, as every tourney I've been to takes at least 10 minutes to gather list info and such. If lists were required beforehand, once the clock hits the tourney start time, they could have pairings and everything ready, and just get players on tables.

And as to the protest, there was some discussion that possibly the players decided to take the IDs to show how silly the ID rule for X-wing was.

Not a bad plan. Most other Tabletop games that I have been a part of required lists to be submitted 2-3 weeks prior.

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

I can't believe that this is even a question, sorry dude but you sound like you're trolling.

The thing I don't understand is, why arent lists submitted a week or so before the tournament? That sounds like a basic idea to me. Everyone has the interwebs, there are free Squadron builders readily available.... Seems it would cut this out. TO's go around, ensuring what they have submitted is what they are playing.

Also to the uneducated..what is the "protest" about? I am trying to get the gist of what people have said, but alas I have failed bad.

The thing that really bites is that people will find a way to cheat no matter what the game is. Is a sad indictment on the current state of play.

I wish tourney organizers were more open to this idea. It would save time as well, as every tourney I've been to takes at least 10 minutes to gather list info and such. If lists were required beforehand, once the clock hits the tourney start time, they could have pairings and everything ready, and just get players on tables.

And as to the protest, there was some discussion that possibly the players decided to take the IDs to show how silly the ID rule for X-wing was.

Cheers Kdubb, I am in Australia and haven't really heard a lot on whats happened. An ID seems to go against the very spirit of a tournament. Everyone wants to do well, but if you have cheat or play outside the spirit of the game to rank highly then you probably need to get a bit of a life outside the game. People forget it's a game for fun, it's a bit sad.

Big Ups to the OP too, I wouldn't have known about it if it wasn't for their post.

I've only ever played in one event (our "squad championships" league/tournament this year where lists were required in advance of the event. No other game I've attended tournaments before has required lists before the day-of. If I have a sudden inspiration the night before the tournament, being required to submit my list a week early shuts that down.

All that said, however, lists should definitely be required prior to tournament star, and scouting should be outright illegal. We had someone win a store championship here last year by doing just that.

If tournaments required me to submit a list a week, if not more, in advance, would probably mean I'd play in fewer tournaments.

Also to the uneducated..what is the "protest" about? I am trying to get the gist of what people have said, but alas I have failed bad.

The thing that really bites is that people will find a way to cheat no matter what the game is. Is a sad indictment on the current state of play.

There was no cheating involved here. Players used a recent rule change sanctioned by FFG that even included a precedent set at the Hoth Open, an approved draw that locked two players into the Top 8 when it was likely one would have been eliminated.

The "protest narrative" was that these players all took the ID in hopes that it would get the attention it did (and several are "on record" as not liking the rule further supported this narrative). Apparently, the OP was the one that actually took the ID for that reason while the other were simply being pragmatic.

...I mean just because I have been exposed in the "Panama Papers" doesn't mean my Tax Avoidance is illegal it's just a loop hole everyone's entitled to pay an accountant to find. Oops wrong forum... these aren't the droids you are looking for... move along... move along...

I think the OP shouldn't have anything to worry about. Learn from your experiences that's the main thing.

I've only ever played in one event (our "squad championships" league/tournament this year where lists were required in advance of the event. No other game I've attended tournaments before has required lists before the day-of. If I have a sudden inspiration the night before the tournament, being required to submit my list a week early shuts that down.

All that said, however, lists should definitely be required prior to tournament star, and scouting should be outright illegal. We had someone win a store championship here last year by doing just that.

If tournaments required me to submit a list a week, if not more, in advance, would probably mean I'd play in fewer tournaments.

In the different systems I have played, people normally play test their tourney list to death, they know every ins and outs of what does what and what supports what. I have found it extremely rare to have pre tourney inspiration as you have gone over that sucker a million times.

I dunno, I can't get too worked up with the idea of working out what you want to fly on the day. I kinda like the fact that the game is light when it comes to that kind of thing. I've seen people literally buy parts of their squad in the store on the day of the championship to give things a whirl.

Playing a list you're not sure on to offset a local meta seems like it balances out for me - you haven't got the practice flying it, but you're not going in blind.