As a longtime (former) Warhammer player I've done this countless times. Maybe not at every little local store tourney, but at every event of any size or 'upper level event', lists have always been required early. Sometimes a month or two, depending on the event.

I would think that requiring X-wing lists to be submitted a few days or a week prior to the event should be easy to pull off. I speculate that the vast majority of players know what they are going to fly long before the day of the event. Especially at an Organized Play event.

There was no cheating involved here. Players used a recent rule change sanctioned by FFG that even included a precedent set at the Hoth Open, an approved draw that locked two players into the Top 8 when it was likely one would have been eliminated.

The cheating would be any collusion, or prior discussions that were had, before the situation actually occurred. The ID rules are clear in that any discussions regarding an ID must be had in front of the TO. If there was any discussion about IDs beforehand then cheating occurred.

Also to the uneducated..what is the "protest" about? I am trying to get the gist of what people have said, but alas I have failed bad.

The thing that really bites is that people will find a way to cheat no matter what the game is. Is a sad indictment on the current state of play.

There was no cheating involved here. Players used a recent rule change sanctioned by FFG that even included a precedent set at the Hoth Open, an approved draw that locked two players into the Top 8 when it was likely one would have been eliminated.

The "protest narrative" was that these players all took the ID in hopes that it would get the attention it did (and several are "on record" as not liking the rule further supported this narrative). Apparently, the OP was the one that actually took the ID for that reason while the other were simply being pragmatic.

Sorry Shadow wasnt meaning that someone cheated here, was more inferring at tournaments in general.

I should probably read all the posts before asking questions to each one... so sorry about that guys.

I've only ever played in one event (our "squad championships" league/tournament this year where lists were required in advance of the event. No other game I've attended tournaments before has required lists before the day-of. If I have a sudden inspiration the night before the tournament, being required to submit my list a week early shuts that down.

All that said, however, lists should definitely be required prior to tournament star, and scouting should be outright illegal. We had someone win a store championship here last year by doing just that.

If tournaments required me to submit a list a week, if not more, in advance, would probably mean I'd play in fewer tournaments.

In the different systems I have played, people normally play test their tourney list to death, they know every ins and outs of what does what and what supports what. I have found it extremely rare to have pre tourney inspiration as you have gone over that sucker a million times.

Heh, you'd be surprised how many players change their lists last minute. A week is probably too soon before. I would say maybe ask they be in an hour, maybe 30 mins before? That seems reasonable.

I've only ever played in one event (our "squad championships" league/tournament this year where lists were required in advance of the event. No other game I've attended tournaments before has required lists before the day-of. If I have a sudden inspiration the night before the tournament, being required to submit my list a week early shuts that down.

All that said, however, lists should definitely be required prior to tournament star, and scouting should be outright illegal. We had someone win a store championship here last year by doing just that.

If tournaments required me to submit a list a week, if not more, in advance, would probably mean I'd play in fewer tournaments.

In the different systems I have played, people normally play test their tourney list to death, they know every ins and outs of what does what and what supports what. I have found it extremely rare to have pre tourney inspiration as you have gone over that sucker a million times.

Heh, you'd be surprised how many players change their lists last minute. A week is probably too soon before. I would say maybe ask they be in an hour, maybe 30 mins before? That seems reasonable.

Or, night before at least. This also helps with tournament organization.

I've only ever played in one event (our "squad championships" league/tournament this year where lists were required in advance of the event. No other game I've attended tournaments before has required lists before the day-of. If I have a sudden inspiration the night before the tournament, being required to submit my list a week early shuts that down.

All that said, however, lists should definitely be required prior to tournament star, and scouting should be outright illegal. We had someone win a store championship here last year by doing just that.

If tournaments required me to submit a list a week, if not more, in advance, would probably mean I'd play in fewer tournaments.

In the different systems I have played, people normally play test their tourney list to death, they know every ins and outs of what does what and what supports what. I have found it extremely rare to have pre tourney inspiration as you have gone over that sucker a million times.

Heh, you'd be surprised how many players change their lists last minute. A week is probably too soon before. I would say maybe ask they be in an hour, maybe 30 mins before? That seems reasonable.

Or, night before at least. This also helps with tournament organization.

Yeah, I test my potential tourney lists a lot, but that still doesn't stop me from making even a minor change to the list the night before (in one case, 10 minutes before the tournament on the way there).

I understand that and I have done the same thing in X-Wing. But, submitting the night before has two HUGE benefits

1) allows the TOs to enter full lists into cryodex (a very time consuming affair) and then all they need to do day of is just check people in and then BOOM an X-Wing tournament that actually starts on-time!

2) ensures that everyone comes in blind as to their opponents/ meta

Edit: this is my 100th post! by all the laws of the internet that I just made up you have to agree with me!

I didn't mean to pile on. I just thought it was strange there were no podcasts right after the Hoth Open. With the news from Roanoke, I jumped to a conclusion, sorry.

Apology excepted Captain Needa.

I was at New Mexico and word of this got to us during our second to last round. While we were waiting for the round 5 pairings to come up, those of us near the top were talking about Roanoke and there was vocalization over whether what was done was right or not. I think enough of us disagreed with what was done that had our pairings come out similar to yours (and it didn't, there were a couple guys that would have/could have lost a spot had everyone taken draws). In the end, we had one ID and it appeared both players made **** sure that their taking the ID did -not- keep anyone out artificially (IE- they were the only undefeated players are guaranteed in). But, I don't know how things would have played out if we hadn't had the discussion of Roanoke first. It changed the mood in the room when we started talking about it.

I'm glad it didn't happen in NM, I'm glad we didn't have the opportunity for it to happen in NM. I know I would not want to be a part of it if the chance came up, but I'm really grateful to hear your perspective on it and I do hope that it has a chance to have change happen to our rules.

Thank you for posting this.

Thanks for posting this. Don't beat yourself up about it. What's done is done, and one way or that other I'm sure FFG has "gotten the message".

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times
• congratulating each other on "playing so well" when winning with said list
• and using a coin-flip to determine the outcome of not one but two games in a row at a major event (nationals, I believe)

If there's an antithesis to Fly Casual, it's those guys.

The Facebook thread was deleted but you should have saw Duncan Howards remarks. He was the runner up. He was saying that if the other players wanted in then they should play better and win more games. That they didn't deserve to be top 8 for playing the way they did and having the record they did. Plus some other elitist bs. The nova guys are awful.

While I don't like IDs, most of the people arguing in favor of them are saying exactly this (play better and win more games). What makes him so much worse? Just because he was actually in the situation to use it?

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

whats the big deal here? maybe you really like both lists? its not like you can wait all that long... still have to turn in your squad sheet well before pairings.

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

whats the big deal here? maybe you really like both lists? its not like you can wait all that long... still have to turn in your squad sheet well before pairings.

What people are worried about is that lets say

I show up with two lists (or all my stuff) and then scope out the meta at the event and tailor my list decision based on what I see present. Lots of swarms? im gonna swap for assault missiles etc.

Personally, I don't see a big deal in that regard. But, turning lists in early is a lot easier on the TOs as they can check for legality and enter in data at more of a leisurely pace than the mad dash at 9:50 for dice at 10

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

whats the big deal here? maybe you really like both lists? its not like you can wait all that long... still have to turn in your squad sheet well before pairings.

What people are worried about is that lets say

I show up with two lists (or all my stuff) and then scope out the meta at the event and tailor my list decision based on what I see present. Lots of swarms? im gonna swap for assault missiles etc.

Personally, I don't see a big deal in that regard. But, turning lists in early is a lot easier on the TOs as they can check for legality and enter in data at more of a leisurely pace than the mad dash at 9:50 for dice at 10

eh Timathius, I would say that being able to see your opponents lists before deciding on yours is a pretty unfair advantage, and I would be more concerned with that than the entry of tournament data in a timely manor haha. I'm more worried about the integrity of the tournament than saving a bit of time.

For those who still aren't clear on why this is an issue, think about this- You and a buddy are playing a casual game. You are list building side by side. He puts VI on a couple of ships to bump them up to PS 8. Because you saw this, you make sure to either a) only fly ships at PS 9, or b) Fly low PS generics which wouldn't have been able to compete with his PS anyways. That's unfair, right? And for the same reason, so is walking in to a venue, scoping out the competitions lists, and then choosing what to fly.

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

whats the big deal here? maybe you really like both lists? its not like you can wait all that long... still have to turn in your squad sheet well before pairings.

What people are worried about is that lets say

I show up with two lists (or all my stuff) and then scope out the meta at the event and tailor my list decision based on what I see present. Lots of swarms? im gonna swap for assault missiles etc.

Personally, I don't see a big deal in that regard. But, turning lists in early is a lot easier on the TOs as they can check for legality and enter in data at more of a leisurely pace than the mad dash at 9:50 for dice at 10

i agree there... would be a lot easier for TOs to just be able to check people in and double check a list vs trying to get it all entered day of

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

I can't believe that this is even a question, sorry dude but you sound like you're trolling.

The thing I don't understand is, why arent lists submitted a week or so before the tournament? That sounds like a basic idea to me. Everyone has the interwebs, there are free Squadron builders readily available.... Seems it would cut this out. TO's go around, ensuring what they have submitted is what they are playing.

I'm not trolling. I do, however, regret derailing this thread from discussion on a fine OP.

But to fill out my motivation, I was honestly curious that ObiWonka would put forth such an overall rejection of the Nova Squadron podcasters (which is perfectly fine to have that opinion, whether as a matter of taste or a matter of principle based on their content), but list among his three top complaints one that I truly wouldn't have foreseen as noteworthy. If nothing else, I was trying to get a feel for this sense of creeping factionalism I am finding in the community. Simple question.

Having read the replies on the question, I respect these views more now. But I must honestly say I never would have seen (and still don't see) this as grossly unfair or unethical. Maybe a little on the scuzzy side, but the bottom line from a pragmatic standpoint is that tweaking your list at the last minute after scouting the field only has a small probability of doing you any good.

I was very scrupulous in a recent league format to make sure that any tweaks I made to my list before each game were NOT influenced in any way by seeing what my scheduled opponent put on the table. That's clearly the fair way to do it in such a format.

However, in a large event where you have no way of knowing which individuals or lists you are actually going to face, but you see a preponderance of PalpAces as you watch players arrive, it doesn't seem all that wrong to me to decide at the last possible (and legal) moment, before you must turn in your list, to switch to something you anticipate doing better against that archetype. Then of course, by random chance, you may never face any PalpAces over the day, and you find that you regret that you didn't stick with your initial plan.

At the Plano regionals last year, I had a list that I was pretty sure was a good meta-killer against the DeciPhantom archetype still prevailing at the time. As it turned out, I faced just ONE large-base+ace list all day (and I played 7 rounds), and it was a not-so-fat Falcon flanked by Horton. At the Covenant SC a couple months ago, I saw only four PalpAces builds on the tables as everyone arrived. As it turned out, I faced three of them. So the odds gave me ACTUAL opponents that did not reflect either my predictions on the meta or my friendly scouting of the field (after I had turned in my list, I will add).

So, choosing to switch lists based on incomplete and potentially irrelevant scouting doesn't seem a big deal to me.

I respect the opposing views, however, and wouldn't complain if official tournament policy required all lists be submitted ahead of time. This one complaint just struck me as very minor in the grand scheme of things.

Apologies for the derailment.

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

whats the big deal here? maybe you really like both lists? its not like you can wait all that long... still have to turn in your squad sheet well before pairings.

What people are worried about is that lets say

I show up with two lists (or all my stuff) and then scope out the meta at the event and tailor my list decision based on what I see present. Lots of swarms? im gonna swap for assault missiles etc.

Personally, I don't see a big deal in that regard. But, turning lists in early is a lot easier on the TOs as they can check for legality and enter in data at more of a leisurely pace than the mad dash at 9:50 for dice at 10

eh Timathius, I would say that being able to see your opponents lists before deciding on yours is a pretty unfair advantage, and I would be more concerned with that than the entry of tournament data in a timely manor haha. I'm more worried about the integrity of the tournament than saving a bit of time.

I've been to several tourney's where people don't get any ships out of boxes or anything until they've turned squad sheets in and everyone else has too. I never thought anything about it other than it was part of the game. i think nearly everyone has their list planned out already and aren't going to make changes. but also, people cant start to strategise about possible match-ups until right before dials down. however Im certain some don't decide what list to fly until scanning the room at least quickly. And i guess I never thought anything about it. I've never done that... but can't fault anyone really

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

I can't believe that this is even a question, sorry dude but you sound like you're trolling.

The thing I don't understand is, why arent lists submitted a week or so before the tournament? That sounds like a basic idea to me. Everyone has the interwebs, there are free Squadron builders readily available.... Seems it would cut this out. TO's go around, ensuring what they have submitted is what they are playing.

I'm not trolling. I do, however, regret derailing this thread from discussion on a fine OP.

But to fill out my motivation, I was honestly curious that ObiWonka would put forth such an overall rejection of the Nova Squadron podcasters (which is perfectly fine to have that opinion, whether as a matter of taste or a matter of principle based on their content), but list among his three top complaints one that I truly wouldn't have foreseen as noteworthy. If nothing else, I was trying to get a feel for this sense of creeping factionalism I am finding in the community. Simple question.

Having read the replies on the question, I respect these views more now. But I must honestly say I never would have seen (and still don't see) this as grossly unfair or unethical. Maybe a little on the scuzzy side, but the bottom line from a pragmatic standpoint is that tweaking your list at the last minute after scouting the field only has a small probability of doing you any good.

I was very scrupulous in a recent league format to make sure that any tweaks I made to my list before each game were NOT influenced in any way by seeing what my scheduled opponent put on the table. That's clearly the fair way to do it in such a format.

However, in a large event where you have no way of knowing which individuals or lists you are actually going to face, but you see a preponderance of PalpAces as you watch players arrive, it doesn't seem all that wrong to me to decide at the last possible (and legal) moment, before you must turn in your list, to switch to something you anticipate doing better against that archetype. Then of course, by random chance, you may never face any PalpAces over the day, and you find that you regret that you didn't stick with your initial plan.

At the Plano regionals last year, I had a list that I was pretty sure was a good meta-killer against the DeciPhantom archetype still prevailing at the time. As it turned out, I faced just ONE large-base+ace list all day (and I played 7 rounds), and it was a not-so-fat Falcon flanked by Horton. At the Covenant SC a couple months ago, I saw only four PalpAces builds on the tables as everyone arrived. As it turned out, I faced three of them. So the odds gave me ACTUAL opponents that did not reflect either my predictions on the meta or my friendly scouting of the field (after I had turned in my list, I will add).

So, choosing to switch lists based on incomplete and potentially irrelevant scouting doesn't seem a big deal to me.

I respect the opposing views, however, and wouldn't complain if official tournament policy required all lists be submitted ahead of time. This one complaint just struck me as very minor in the grand scheme of things.

Apologies for the derailment.

said much better than I.... well done

eh Timathius, I would say that being able to see your opponents lists before deciding on yours is a pretty unfair advantage, and I would be more concerned with that than the entry of tournament data in a timely manor haha. I'm more worried about the integrity of the tournament than saving a bit of time.

For those who still aren't clear on why this is an issue, think about this- You and a buddy are playing a casual game. You are list building side by side. He puts VI on a couple of ships to bump them up to PS 8. Because you saw this, you make sure to either a) only fly ships at PS 9, or b) Fly low PS generics which wouldn't have been able to compete with his PS anyways. That's unfair, right? And for the same reason, so is walking in to a venue, scoping out the competitions lists, and then choosing what to fly.

I agree that it would be quite an advantage. The reason I am not too worried about it is more that I don't think that it would A) be that easy and B) happens very often. If it were to become more prevalent, then of course it would be the bigger issue.

I have seen a lot more issues with TOs being rushed into entering tournament data and not checking list legality. (wampa taking an EPT comes to mind) and then there is the fact that a ton of the tournaments on List Juggler don't actually have the lists entered.

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

I can't believe that this is even a question, sorry dude but you sound like you're trolling.

The thing I don't understand is, why arent lists submitted a week or so before the tournament? That sounds like a basic idea to me. Everyone has the interwebs, there are free Squadron builders readily available.... Seems it would cut this out. TO's go around, ensuring what they have submitted is what they are playing.

I'm not trolling. I do, however, regret derailing this thread from discussion on a fine OP.

But to fill out my motivation, I was honestly curious that ObiWonka would put forth such an overall rejection of the Nova Squadron podcasters (which is perfectly fine to have that opinion, whether as a matter of taste or a matter of principle based on their content), but list among his three top complaints one that I truly wouldn't have foreseen as noteworthy. If nothing else, I was trying to get a feel for this sense of creeping factionalism I am finding in the community. Simple question.

Having read the replies on the question, I respect these views more now. But I must honestly say I never would have seen (and still don't see) this as grossly unfair or unethical. Maybe a little on the scuzzy side, but the bottom line from a pragmatic standpoint is that tweaking your list at the last minute after scouting the field only has a small probability of doing you any good.

I was very scrupulous in a recent league format to make sure that any tweaks I made to my list before each game were NOT influenced in any way by seeing what my scheduled opponent put on the table. That's clearly the fair way to do it in such a format.

However, in a large event where you have no way of knowing which individuals or lists you are actually going to face, but you see a preponderance of PalpAces as you watch players arrive, it doesn't seem all that wrong to me to decide at the last possible (and legal) moment, before you must turn in your list, to switch to something you anticipate doing better against that archetype. Then of course, by random chance, you may never face any PalpAces over the day, and you find that you regret that you didn't stick with your initial plan.

At the Plano regionals last year, I had a list that I was pretty sure was a good meta-killer against the DeciPhantom archetype still prevailing at the time. As it turned out, I faced just ONE large-base+ace list all day (and I played 7 rounds), and it was a not-so-fat Falcon flanked by Horton. At the Covenant SC a couple months ago, I saw only four PalpAces builds on the tables as everyone arrived. As it turned out, I faced three of them. So the odds gave me ACTUAL opponents that did not reflect either my predictions on the meta or my friendly scouting of the field (after I had turned in my list, I will add).

So, choosing to switch lists based on incomplete and potentially irrelevant scouting doesn't seem a big deal to me.

I respect the opposing views, however, and wouldn't complain if official tournament policy required all lists be submitted ahead of time. This one complaint just struck me as very minor in the grand scheme of things.

Apologies for the derailment.

Oh Paul... I'm sorry to admit, but I'm a bit disappointed this wasn't a misunderstanding, as in my book at least, that is clearly the wrong mentality... By scanning the room and seeing Palp Aces, you are already gaining an unfair advantage, as everyone should be going to that tournament blind to what everyone else is flying. As far as the legality of it, I honestly cannot say whether or not it is technically legal to do this, but it certainly gives you an advantage, even if pairings don't fall your way. By doing this, it penalizes the first players to arrive who a) have their lists seen, and b) cannot adapt since their lists are already submitted. It also penalizes players who have no ability to adapt for other reasons. Perhaps they are new to the game, and have a small collection. If everyone sees they have a terrifying list, and adjusts to beat it, then they are paying heavily just for being better at building a list and being forced to stick with it. And unless there is a new initiative for everyone to hide the entirety of their lists until pairings are set, I would advise everyone stay away from trying to get a "feel" for what is being flown before inputting your final list. Put in a list before entering the venue, stick with it, and refrain from gaining an unfair advantage. Even if that advantage seems small, and even if it's small, it's still an unfair advantage as it is not one that is open to all.

Perhaps we should take the discussion to another thread, but I fear to post another discussion about ethics at tournaments only to burn this place further to the ground...

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

I can't believe that this is even a question, sorry dude but you sound like you're trolling.

The thing I don't understand is, why arent lists submitted a week or so before the tournament? That sounds like a basic idea to me. Everyone has the interwebs, there are free Squadron builders readily available.... Seems it would cut this out. TO's go around, ensuring what they have submitted is what they are playing.

I'm not trolling. I do, however, regret derailing this thread from discussion on a fine OP.

But to fill out my motivation, I was honestly curious that ObiWonka would put forth such an overall rejection of the Nova Squadron podcasters (which is perfectly fine to have that opinion, whether as a matter of taste or a matter of principle based on their content), but list among his three top complaints one that I truly wouldn't have foreseen as noteworthy. If nothing else, I was trying to get a feel for this sense of creeping factionalism I am finding in the community. Simple question.

Having read the replies on the question, I respect these views more now. But I must honestly say I never would have seen (and still don't see) this as grossly unfair or unethical. Maybe a little on the scuzzy side, but the bottom line from a pragmatic standpoint is that tweaking your list at the last minute after scouting the field only has a small probability of doing you any good.

I was very scrupulous in a recent league format to make sure that any tweaks I made to my list before each game were NOT influenced in any way by seeing what my scheduled opponent put on the table. That's clearly the fair way to do it in such a format.

However, in a large event where you have no way of knowing which individuals or lists you are actually going to face, but you see a preponderance of PalpAces as you watch players arrive, it doesn't seem all that wrong to me to decide at the last possible (and legal) moment, before you must turn in your list, to switch to something you anticipate doing better against that archetype. Then of course, by random chance, you may never face any PalpAces over the day, and you find that you regret that you didn't stick with your initial plan.

At the Plano regionals last year, I had a list that I was pretty sure was a good meta-killer against the DeciPhantom archetype still prevailing at the time. As it turned out, I faced just ONE large-base+ace list all day (and I played 7 rounds), and it was a not-so-fat Falcon flanked by Horton. At the Covenant SC a couple months ago, I saw only four PalpAces builds on the tables as everyone arrived. As it turned out, I faced three of them. So the odds gave me ACTUAL opponents that did not reflect either my predictions on the meta or my friendly scouting of the field (after I had turned in my list, I will add).

So, choosing to switch lists based on incomplete and potentially irrelevant scouting doesn't seem a big deal to me.

I respect the opposing views, however, and wouldn't complain if official tournament policy required all lists be submitted ahead of time. This one complaint just struck me as very minor in the grand scheme of things.

Apologies for the derailment.

Oh Paul... I'm sorry to admit, but I'm a bit disappointed this wasn't a misunderstanding, as in my book at least, that is clearly the wrong mentality... By scanning the room and seeing Palp Aces, you are already gaining an unfair advantage, as everyone should be going to that tournament blind to what everyone else is flying. As far as the legality of it, I honestly cannot say whether or not it is technically legal to do this, but it certainly gives you an advantage, even if pairings don't fall your way. By doing this, it penalizes the first players to arrive who a) have their lists seen, and b) cannot adapt since their lists are already submitted. It also penalizes players who have no ability to adapt for other reasons. Perhaps they are new to the game, and have a small collection. If everyone sees they have a terrifying list, and adjusts to beat it, then they are paying heavily just for being better at building a list and being forced to stick with it. And unless there is a new initiative for everyone to hide the entirety of their lists until pairings are set, I would advise everyone stay away from trying to get a "feel" for what is being flown before inputting your final list. Put in a list before entering the venue, stick with it, and refrain from gaining an unfair advantage. Even if that advantage seems small, and even if it's small, it's still an unfair advantage as it is not one that is open to all.

Perhaps we should take the discussion to another thread, but I fear to post another discussion about ethics at tournaments only to burn this place further to the ground...

But its not illegal so obviously under the current issue were having its acceptable to do.

Oh Paul... I'm sorry to admit, but I'm a bit disappointed this wasn't a misunderstanding, as in my book at least, that is clearly the wrong mentality... By scanning the room and seeing Palp Aces, you are already gaining an unfair advantage, as everyone should be going to that tournament blind to what everyone else is flying. As far as the legality of it, I honestly cannot say whether or not it is technically legal to do this, but it certainly gives you an advantage, even if pairings don't fall your way. By doing this, it penalizes the first players to arrive who a) have their lists seen, and b) cannot adapt since their lists are already submitted. It also penalizes players who have no ability to adapt for other reasons. Perhaps they are new to the game, and have a small collection. If everyone sees they have a terrifying list, and adjusts to beat it, then they are paying heavily just for being better at building a list and being forced to stick with it. And unless there is a new initiative for everyone to hide the entirety of their lists until pairings are set, I would advise everyone stay away from trying to get a "feel" for what is being flown before inputting your final list. Put in a list before entering the venue, stick with it, and refrain from gaining an unfair advantage. Even if that advantage seems small, and even if it's small, it's still an unfair advantage as it is not one that is open to all.

Perhaps we should take the discussion to another thread, but I fear to post another discussion about ethics at tournaments only to burn this place further to the ground...

You raise a "fair" point. (Sorry, unavoidable pun.)

Being the first person to arrive and put your ships out on the table inherently gives away information to later arrivals, and thus gives them a literally unfair advantage over you.

Like I said, I respect the opposing views more, the more they are logically and rationally expressed. You'll get no argument from me. Under a strict definition of unfair advantage, it is reasonable to advocate that a new rule be implemented requiring lists to be handed in ahead of time.

I just find the whole idea to be not worth worrying about under a purely utilitarian ethics calculus.

Honestly, my buddy who drove us to the Covenant SC was making some last minute decisions on a card here vs. a card there, well after other players had arrived and started putting their ships on the table, but before the deadline to turn in lists had come. I never thought twice about it. Did he gain even a subliminal or peripheral unfair advantage by seeing what was coming in the door as he debated the final tweaks? Probably. Did it help him win where otherwise he would have lost? I doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that a clear majority of X-Wing tournament players sit down at the tournament venue with a few last minute tweak options rolling around in their head, before they commit their final list to paper. Sacrifice PS on this guy to add FCS on my B-wing? Autothrusters on this generic guy over here, or VI on my ace over there? Forget that Seismic in favor of an initiative bid? I'm betting all of this is a pretty common -- nay, near-universal -- occurrence.

And ObiWonka's original complaint struck me as all the more curious, now that we have the "Hangar Bay" format, where you arrive with two lists and have a prescribed blind method of choosing between them.

But again, I'm not really arguing that you're wrong. Maybe I'm just saying, an absolutist position on this point is probably unnecessary, and fails to recognize the commonness of the occurrence, and the likely utter uselessness of it.

Man, that was a lot of blather for a minor sub-issue we should probably take elsewhere!

That's also disappointing to hear about the NOVA guys. However, I stopped listening to them after hearing them talk about

• taking two builds to a tournament and only choosing which one to fly after seeing what everyone else was flying, multiple times

Is this something to frown upon?

I can't believe that this is even a question, sorry dude but you sound like you're trolling.

The thing I don't understand is, why arent lists submitted a week or so before the tournament? That sounds like a basic idea to me. Everyone has the interwebs, there are free Squadron builders readily available.... Seems it would cut this out. TO's go around, ensuring what they have submitted is what they are playing.

I'm not trolling. I do, however, regret derailing this thread from discussion on a fine OP.

But to fill out my motivation, I was honestly curious that ObiWonka would put forth such an overall rejection of the Nova Squadron podcasters (which is perfectly fine to have that opinion, whether as a matter of taste or a matter of principle based on their content), but list among his three top complaints one that I truly wouldn't have foreseen as noteworthy. If nothing else, I was trying to get a feel for this sense of creeping factionalism I am finding in the community. Simple question.

Having read the replies on the question, I respect these views more now. But I must honestly say I never would have seen (and still don't see) this as grossly unfair or unethical. Maybe a little on the scuzzy side, but the bottom line from a pragmatic standpoint is that tweaking your list at the last minute after scouting the field only has a small probability of doing you any good.

I was very scrupulous in a recent league format to make sure that any tweaks I made to my list before each game were NOT influenced in any way by seeing what my scheduled opponent put on the table. That's clearly the fair way to do it in such a format.

However, in a large event where you have no way of knowing which individuals or lists you are actually going to face, but you see a preponderance of PalpAces as you watch players arrive, it doesn't seem all that wrong to me to decide at the last possible (and legal) moment, before you must turn in your list, to switch to something you anticipate doing better against that archetype. Then of course, by random chance, you may never face any PalpAces over the day, and you find that you regret that you didn't stick with your initial plan.

At the Plano regionals last year, I had a list that I was pretty sure was a good meta-killer against the DeciPhantom archetype still prevailing at the time. As it turned out, I faced just ONE large-base+ace list all day (and I played 7 rounds), and it was a not-so-fat Falcon flanked by Horton. At the Covenant SC a couple months ago, I saw only four PalpAces builds on the tables as everyone arrived. As it turned out, I faced three of them. So the odds gave me ACTUAL opponents that did not reflect either my predictions on the meta or my friendly scouting of the field (after I had turned in my list, I will add).

So, choosing to switch lists based on incomplete and potentially irrelevant scouting doesn't seem a big deal to me.

I respect the opposing views, however, and wouldn't complain if official tournament policy required all lists be submitted ahead of time. This one complaint just struck me as very minor in the grand scheme of things.

Apologies for the derailment.

Oh Paul... I'm sorry to admit, but I'm a bit disappointed this wasn't a misunderstanding, as in my book at least, that is clearly the wrong mentality... By scanning the room and seeing Palp Aces, you are already gaining an unfair advantage, as everyone should be going to that tournament blind to what everyone else is flying. As far as the legality of it, I honestly cannot say whether or not it is technically legal to do this, but it certainly gives you an advantage, even if pairings don't fall your way. By doing this, it penalizes the first players to arrive who a) have their lists seen, and b) cannot adapt since their lists are already submitted. It also penalizes players who have no ability to adapt for other reasons. Perhaps they are new to the game, and have a small collection. If everyone sees they have a terrifying list, and adjusts to beat it, then they are paying heavily just for being better at building a list and being forced to stick with it. And unless there is a new initiative for everyone to hide the entirety of their lists until pairings are set, I would advise everyone stay away from trying to get a "feel" for what is being flown before inputting your final list. Put in a list before entering the venue, stick with it, and refrain from gaining an unfair advantage. Even if that advantage seems small, and even if it's small, it's still an unfair advantage as it is not one that is open to all.

Perhaps we should take the discussion to another thread, but I fear to post another discussion about ethics at tournaments only to burn this place further to the ground...

But its not illegal so obviously under the current issue were having its acceptable to do.

Apparently...

Carried to its logical conclusion extreme, we have two players with two different lists and the player to turn in their squad sheet last has an advantage over the other.

I find myself hoping the hangar bay format catches on.

Oh Paul... I'm sorry to admit, but I'm a bit disappointed this wasn't a misunderstanding, as in my book at least, that is clearly the wrong mentality... By scanning the room and seeing Palp Aces, you are already gaining an unfair advantage, as everyone should be going to that tournament blind to what everyone else is flying. As far as the legality of it, I honestly cannot say whether or not it is technically legal to do this, but it certainly gives you an advantage, even if pairings don't fall your way. By doing this, it penalizes the first players to arrive who a) have their lists seen, and b) cannot adapt since their lists are already submitted. It also penalizes players who have no ability to adapt for other reasons. Perhaps they are new to the game, and have a small collection. If everyone sees they have a terrifying list, and adjusts to beat it, then they are paying heavily just for being better at building a list and being forced to stick with it. And unless there is a new initiative for everyone to hide the entirety of their lists until pairings are set, I would advise everyone stay away from trying to get a "feel" for what is being flown before inputting your final list. Put in a list before entering the venue, stick with it, and refrain from gaining an unfair advantage. Even if that advantage seems small, and even if it's small, it's still an unfair advantage as it is not one that is open to all.

Perhaps we should take the discussion to another thread, but I fear to post another discussion about ethics at tournaments only to burn this place further to the ground...

You raise a "fair" point. (Sorry, unavoidable pun.)

Being the first person to arrive and put your ships out on the table inherently gives away information to later arrivals, and thus gives them a literally unfair advantage over you.

Like I said, I respect the opposing views more, the more they are logically and rationally expressed. You'll get no argument from me. Under a strict definition of unfair advantage, it is reasonable to advocate that a new rule be implemented requiring lists to be handed in ahead of time.

I just find the whole idea to be not worth worrying about under a purely utilitarian ethics calculus.

Honestly, my buddy who drove us to the Covenant SC was making some last minute decisions on a card here vs. a card there, well after other players had arrived and started putting their ships on the table, but before the deadline to turn in lists had come. I never thought twice about it. Did he gain even a subliminal or peripheral unfair advantage by seeing what was coming in the door as he debated the final tweaks? Probably. Did it help him win where otherwise he would have lost? I doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that a clear majority of X-Wing tournament players sit down at the tournament venue with a few last minute tweak options rolling around in their head, before they commit their final list to paper. Sacrifice PS on this guy to add FCS on my B-wing? Autothrusters on this generic guy over here, or VI on my ace over there? Forget that Seismic in favor of an initiative bid? I'm betting all of this is a pretty common -- nay, near-universal -- occurrence.

And ObiWonka's original complaint struck me as all the more curious, now that we have the "Hangar Bay" format, where you arrive with two lists and have a prescribed blind method of choosing between them.

But again, I'm not really arguing that you're wrong. Maybe I'm just saying, an absolutist position on this point is probably unnecessary, and fails to recognize the commonness of the occurrence, and the likely utter uselessness of it.

Man, that was a lot of blather for a minor sub-issue we should probably take elsewhere!

Ya I'd like to hear more discussion on it, but the state the forums are in now, I don't think it's the time. I appreciate the civility of our discussion here. Now I know when I bring my List-to-counter-all-lists, I'll keep it tightly sealed in a box with a 100 locks.

Oh Paul... I'm sorry to admit, but I'm a bit disappointed this wasn't a misunderstanding, as in my book at least, that is clearly the wrong mentality... By scanning the room and seeing Palp Aces, you are already gaining an unfair advantage, as everyone should be going to that tournament blind to what everyone else is flying. As far as the legality of it, I honestly cannot say whether or not it is technically legal to do this, but it certainly gives you an advantage, even if pairings don't fall your way. By doing this, it penalizes the first players to arrive who a) have their lists seen, and b) cannot adapt since their lists are already submitted. It also penalizes players who have no ability to adapt for other reasons. Perhaps they are new to the game, and have a small collection. If everyone sees they have a terrifying list, and adjusts to beat it, then they are paying heavily just for being better at building a list and being forced to stick with it. And unless there is a new initiative for everyone to hide the entirety of their lists until pairings are set, I would advise everyone stay away from trying to get a "feel" for what is being flown before inputting your final list. Put in a list before entering the venue, stick with it, and refrain from gaining an unfair advantage. Even if that advantage seems small, and even if it's small, it's still an unfair advantage as it is not one that is open to all.

Perhaps we should take the discussion to another thread, but I fear to post another discussion about ethics at tournaments only to burn this place further to the ground...

You raise a "fair" point. (Sorry, unavoidable pun.)

Being the first person to arrive and put your ships out on the table inherently gives away information to later arrivals, and thus gives them a literally unfair advantage over you.

Like I said, I respect the opposing views more, the more they are logically and rationally expressed. You'll get no argument from me. Under a strict definition of unfair advantage, it is reasonable to advocate that a new rule be implemented requiring lists to be handed in ahead of time.

I just find the whole idea to be not worth worrying about under a purely utilitarian ethics calculus.

Honestly, my buddy who drove us to the Covenant SC was making some last minute decisions on a card here vs. a card there, well after other players had arrived and started putting their ships on the table, but before the deadline to turn in lists had come. I never thought twice about it. Did he gain even a subliminal or peripheral unfair advantage by seeing what was coming in the door as he debated the final tweaks? Probably. Did it help him win where otherwise he would have lost? I doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that a clear majority of X-Wing tournament players sit down at the tournament venue with a few last minute tweak options rolling around in their head, before they commit their final list to paper. Sacrifice PS on this guy to add FCS on my B-wing? Autothrusters on this generic guy over here, or VI on my ace over there? Forget that Seismic in favor of an initiative bid? I'm betting all of this is a pretty common -- nay, near-universal -- occurrence.

And ObiWonka's original complaint struck me as all the more curious, now that we have the "Hangar Bay" format, where you arrive with two lists and have a prescribed blind method of choosing between them.

But again, I'm not really arguing that you're wrong. Maybe I'm just saying, an absolutist position on this point is probably unnecessary, and fails to recognize the commonness of the occurrence, and the likely utter uselessness of it.

Man, that was a lot of blather for a minor sub-issue we should probably take elsewhere!

Ya I'd like to hear more discussion on it, but the state the forums are in now, I don't think it's the time. I appreciate the civility of our discussion here. Now I know when I bring my List-to-counter-all-lists, I'll keep it tightly sealed in a box with a 100 locks.

Ill do it. anything to get some variety around here and get away from the ID issue .