Among X-Wing players, there's an understanding that some pilots, and some configurations of pilots, are better than others.

Carnor Jax isn't as good as Soontir Fel, but is sometimes useful - and Lieutenant Lorrirr is a steaming pile of mynock droppings next to either of them.

Wedge is worse than Han Solo as a Rebel Ace, but VI Poe Dameron is better than either.

The Scyk as a whole is categorically worse than the Z-95.

Predator Darth Vader is stronger offensively than VI Darth Vader, but VI Darth Vader is the supreme trump card of a PS war.

Both Academy Pilots and Black Squadron Pilots have their place in a list, being just about equal in terms of utility.

Lower PS generics were once always better than the higher PS generics thanks to being cheaper, but now with triple Jumpmasters floating around it's more important to fire first.

So... why isn't there an organized tier list in the fan community, one that is set up to be changed and evolve as the game does?

Yeah, there's 160+ pilots, but it wouldn't be impossible to set up and maintain - especially if it were done through the already existing wiki.

Not only would it be a tremendous help to new players, but it would also help categorize the ships and pilots which need help in a format that would be easy for game devs to look at - yes, how the players judge game pieces is really important for developers to know. Just saying, "The X-Wing is terrible even with Integrated Astromech" is one thing. But to see all but one or two pilots ranked at C by the players? It also would help see factional balance, because if one faction has a bunch of Rank S/A items and another does NOT, then that's a sign that one side either needs buffing or nerfing somehow.

Ranking (for those unfamiliar with it) usually works as follows:

Rank SS is reserved for broken, nearly unbeatable pieces - the TIE/Phantoms of yesteryear would be an example.

Rank S are pieces that are always useful in every list and trump other similar pieces. Darth Vader and Soontir Fel would be examples of Rank S pilots - they're almost always good and can destroy more than their weight in points.

Rank A are pieces that aren't quite as good as the Rank S pieces, but are strong enough to hold their own in most cases. Omega Leader has a highly specific job of countering enemy Aces and is almost unbeatable one-on-one, but has a huge target painted on him because of that fact and can't survive or arc dodge a sustained barrage like Soontir or Vader can. Whisper is arc dodging goodness, but is locked into a specific and very expensive configuration, with only a Crew optional, in order to become good.

Rank B are pieces which have specific uses to specific lists and aren't BAD, just... specialized. Carnor Jax is one example - he can trap Jumpmasters in his bubble of suck, but overall Soontir's a much stronger TIE/In. An Omicron Group Pilot with Palpatine is super helpful as support to Aces, but by itself is a slow whale vulnerable to arc dodging.

Rank C are... well, the ones that no one will use because they're wretched in some way or another. (Imperial) Kath Scarlet is overpriced, her ability is difficult to trigger and of little real help when it does, and there's no reason to take her when for a few points more you could have a cheap Decimator, or a few points less take Darth Vader!

I like this Idea I might try at making a list!

you can in some cases just compare points....

Honestly I think it's too objective and synergy based to put into teir categories. Obviously there are pilots universally recognised as better than others, but a ships value is almost entirely based upon the role it will fill in your list. One of the best things about X-wing is the fact that there aren't many ships that are truly useless and can be used to fill gaps in a variety of lists.

I feel that carnor is a little better than you make him out to be...

Then there's rank F for Fel's Wrath.

Part of it is the meta; right now, Blue Squadron Pilot is solidly B tier; a year ago, it would've been S tier. So a tier list isn't a bad idea, but it requires a lot of revision.

So... why isn't there an organized tier list in the fan community, one that is set up to be changed and evolve as the game does?

Because it's utterly subjective.

Part of it is the meta; right now, Blue Squadron Pilot is solidly B tier; a year ago, it would've been S tier. So a tier list isn't a bad idea, but it requires a lot of revision.

This.

Ships are easier to do than pilots, so i'll start with that. Each tier is in no particular order. Keep in mind, this is entirely subjective; You may disagree with my assessment, and that's ok. As a community we all need to come together to find out what we value and where we value it, and this is me throwing in my $.02. I added a reasoning to my rankings next to all the ships, as a form of defending my choice for placing that ship there.

SS Tier:

Thankfully, i don't think any ships are overpowered at the moment.

S Tier:

TIE Advanced : The value from the TIE Advanced with the X1 title cannot be understated. It has a higher consistent damage output, action economy, higher agility, identical HP, a reposition action, and some might argue better dial than the X-Wing, for the exact same cost(assuming accuracy corrector). It has some powerful pilots, and very few exploitable flaws.

TIE Interceptor : A powerhouse since Imperial Aces, the TIE Interceptor has been and will likely continue to be one of the best ships in the game thanks to it's boost and barrel roll, double mod slots, action efficient pilots, and amazing dial.

TIE Phantom : A 4 attack ship with incredible repositioning options and excellent, action efficient upgrades and pilots, the TIE Phantom, even after a nerf, remains an incredible ship.

TIE Defender(Post-Imp Vets) : The soon-to-be offensive firepower of the TIE Defender, mixed with barrel roll, and a dial uniquely good at jousting with it's white 4k, makes this ship one to fear. The only small ship able to mix control elements such as tractor beam and ion cannon with an immediate follow up of standard attacks, with 6 HP and 3 agility, makes this ship a dominant neo-jouster.

Jumpmaster 5000 : Points efficient to an insane degree, with incredible pilot abilities, a native barrel roll action, unique one-sided(but nonetheless very solid) dial, upgradable PWT, and versatile upgrade slots are this ship's hallmarks. One ship to fear on the battlefield.

IG-2000 : This ship has so many options, a ludicrously green dial, native boost action, multiple cannon slots, offensive and defensive pilot abilities that each IG can share, and an unheard of agility for a large ship at 3 agility. BroBots to this day manage to maintain a good competitive presence.

A Tier :

T-70 X-Wing : A solid, durable, offensively powerful ship, and packing a native boost action. A better dial over the old X-Wing with mix-up options in the form of the Tallon Rolls, the new Tech slot, defensive ability to mount Autothrusters, PS4 generics with EPT slots, and good PS7 and 8 aces make this ship a common sight. Poe Dameron is The Ace That Won Worlds(And Our Hearts.) It is, however, not infallible, and suffers from many of the same problems as the original X-Wing such as it's cost, and poor ability to dodge high damage. Classified, along with the TIE/FO, as the beginning of the Neo-Jousters.

TIE Fighter : To this day, variations on the original TIE Swarm still make the table. It's barrel roll action, synergistic pilots, and cheap cost make this less of a filler ship and more of a squad unto itself. You'll rarely see one individual TIE Fighter without their designated Squad Mom, Howlrunner. Still good to this day.

YT-1300 : Seen often enough and regarded highly enough to avoid B Tier. It's seen less use lately, but when it is brought out to the table, it can do work. Unfortunately, with the rise of abilities like Omega Leader, Fat Han may be locked up for good. 1 agility simply isn't enough to dodge attacks all on it's own without assistance from good ol' C3P0.

YT-2400 : Dash Rendar still maintains a solid presence, and is one of very few existing Rebel ships to actually get better with the release of Wave 8, with Kanan Jarrus. Unpredictable, good action economy, high damage output, solid dial, Dash's awesome ability, and native barrel roll make this ship super hard to pin down.

TIE/FO : A straight upgrade to the TIE Fighter, the TIE/FO has become the standard filler ship for Imperial squads. The Epsilon Squadron Pilot is an incredible value, and Comm Relay further shores up it's defenses along with the addition of a shield. Omega Leader is an excellent pilot in most squads, especially when there is something scarier on the table with it. Omega Leader, with Juke, has a very high damage output, taking full advantage of it's 2 dice primary. S-Loops are it's primary mix-up tool, and a full green 2-speed dial make this ship very agile. It has many varied pilots with anywhere from synergistic abilities to pilot skill increases to offensive increases. Classified with the T-70 as the first Neo-Jouster.

TIE Adv. Prototype : The TIE V1 has enough tools to make it good; action economy, both boost and barrel roll, target lock, a fantastic dial, 2 hull and 2 shields, excellent generics, low cost, and solid unique pilots. It's the Imperial A-Wing; Except better.

Y-Wing : A solid option for most Rebel squads, and in-fact, one of the most flown Rebel ships. With many versatile loadouts, abilities, and upgrade slots, this ship is possibly the closest to it's lore counterpart. It can be a bomber, a torpedo boat, an offensive powerhouse, a control ship, a support craft, or anything you can dream up. The downsides being it's low agility and requirement to buy upgrades for it to be viable. Nonetheless, Y-Wings are a very common sight on the battlefield in various roles.

B Tier :

A-Wing : Unfortunately very brittle ships, their overcosting doesn't lend them any favors. A limited selection of unique pilots hampers this craft's sight in competitive play, and even after the A-Wing Test Pilot title, still suffers from not enough options to consider this craft all that useful. It's best options include the Proton Rockets, which unfortunately means that it's cost-reducing Chaardan Refit is impossible. it is a very specific ship, designed to get in, dump it's rockets, and then die. Jake Farrel is the most used Unique pilot, with a good, action efficient ability, unlocking the use of barrel roll to the A-Wing.

B-Wing : Previously considered one of, if not the best Rebel ships available, it has now fallen to the appropriately named B-Tier. Their ironic lack of durability in the face of high agility; high damage Aces has made them more of a corner case against other low-agility craft where it can make it's cannons and 3 attack do the most work. Unfortunately, in a meta where this is rarely the case, B-Wings see far less play.

K-Wing : Used mostly as a bomber or torpedo boat, the K-Wing does have some decent offensive ability with it's PWT and turret upgrade slot. It also has 1 additional HP over the B-Wing and Y-Wing, but at only 1 agility, this makes little difference. Miranda Doni is the only truly decent pilot, with a built-in shield regen, she is far more durable than she would otherwise have any right to be. However, K-Wings are somewhat expensive, and this precludes their large-scale use except in the specific of cases where bombs can lock down parts of the board, forcing the enemy to play on your terms; However, it is up for debate if this is really worth it over other, simpler options.

Attack Shuttle : Unfortunately only used as a last resort when the Ghost is destroyed or about to be destroyed, it is just as durable as a Z-95 but at 6 points more minimum; Which isn't a good mark in it's favor. It does feature a 3 attack primary, crew slot, and turret slot, making it potentially a good spacing tool and support craft on the side. Unfortunately, it will rarely see the table as it's usually only good to make the Ghost good.

TIE Bomber : With the release of Guidance Chips and Extra Munitions, ordnance is now way more viable, and with Imp Vets incoming, the role of the TIE Bomber as either a crew support craft or a balls-to-the-wall ordnance sledgehammer can get this ship back on the table. Unfortunately, with so many already proven Imperial options already on top of the meta, is it particularly necessary or will it even be used? Time will tell.

TIE Punisher : In the same boat as the TIE Bomber, but worse unfortunately. It has 3 shields over the TIE Bomber, but sacrifices an agility to get it. In addition, it costs more, and it's dial is more limited. It's pilots can take good advantage of bombs and other ordnance, but it's such a corner case ship where the TIE Bomber doesnt have Redline's or Deathrain's ability.

G1-A: As the scum B-Wing, it of course lands in the same category. Lacking a native reposition option, a worse-but-better dial than the B-Wing, an inferior HP set-up, and no cannon slot means this ship will only see play because of it's uniques, where the Mist Hunter title can be the most useful. Objectively, however, the B-Wing is simply superior in most aspects.

Lambda Shuttle : Unfortunately, it's only used because of The Emperor. That's basically it. If the Emperor falls out of style, he'll take the shuttle with it.

VCX-100 : Escaping C Tier because people seem to think it's worth taking, this ship has a lot to overcome to get on the table. It has a high overhead cost, and lacks a repositioning option while simultaneously relying on a standard primary weapon arc. Zero agility also marks negatively against it in an age where abilities and tokens will usually result in all hits or crits on your attacks, and with an ordnance comeback, this ship can fall fast. It has a worse dial than the YT-2400 but costs more and is less versatile. It's saving grace is the Ghost and Phantom titles, allowing it to make a turret attack at the end of the combat phase at the cost of an Attack Shuttle. In short, most of the time you are spending 65-70+ points just on one ship, and while offensively it make wreck house, all it takes is discipline to stay at range 3 where you can't take damage, but the Ghost will take almost all of your shots.

YV-666 : A high cost overhead and low PS pilots can make this not a particularly tantalizing ship to choose. Bossk and Moralo are solid, and it has good upgrade options along with a surprisingly good dial. Thus, it does have a use on the board, and is generally a very self-sustaining ship when loaded up well.

Z-95 : While an excellent ship at jousting, with a low cost and usable generics, it pops really easily, and suffers from a lack of repositioning ability and one poor synergistic ability on the Rebel side. N'Dru Suhlak being the only halfway decent pilot, definitely makes this a generic only ship. However, it is exceptionally good filler, but filler is becoming less of a thing in the meta, so Z-95s are falling by the wayside.

VT-49 Decimator : A good ship unto itself, and a good palp carrier, it suffers from the same problem as the Ghost now does; Zero agility. It doesn't take very long under focused fire to force a Decimator out of play, and given that it is a 3-dice PWT, and at it's price, you want to get the offensive value from it, meaning you charge it into battle, where it dies. The Shuttle can run around the board just fine, but not the Decimator.

C Tier :

X-Wing : A sad affair. An otherwise alright ship, the problem with this craft is debated over endlessly. It's problem doesnt seem to be durability. The most commonly agreed problems are overcosting, lack of repositioning ability, high skill-ceiling, and mediocre dial. To fly the X-Wing means to rely entirely on predicting the enemy's movement, which doesn't happen anymore if the player can help it. It's pilots are dated, and with the T-70 being a thing, it has almost completely vanished from play. Wes Janson is the only one making a minor comeback, as an answer to Omega Leader, token-hoarding Aces, U-Boats, Poe Dameron, and so on.

HWK-290 : A garbage can with wings. It's pilots are overcosted, it has no native attack power, an awful dial, bad HP set-up, and is usable only as a support ship, without the usual hallmarks of a support ship which are lots of HP and a PWT with at least 2 attack. This ship requires a complete reprint, which FFG doesn't do. As it is, it will almost never see play.

Scyk : a more expensive, less durable Z-95. This ship epitomizes the Glass Cannon mentality, allowing you to mount cannons to it with the Heavy Scyk title. Nonetheless, it's pilots aren't worth taking and it's generics are only as good as the ship itself, which isn't very much.

Firespray-31 : Like an X-Wing, but bigger, more HP, and 12-14 points more expensive for the cheapest option. It's dial is almost identical to an X-Wings, it's agility and attack are the same, except it doubles the HP, and has a rear firing arc. The Imperial Firespray gives you no reasons to field it, with bad pilot abilities, few upgrade options worth taking in the current meta, and at a cost so high, you could likely field 2 aces for the same price. The scum firespray is slightly better, but not to a significant enough degree to matter much. The pilot abilities are better, but Scum has had much better options for a long time.

StarViper : Just costs too much. It's a decent ship, 3 attack 3 agility, 4 hull 1 shield, with both boost and barrel roll. It, unfortunately, doesnt do much else to make up for it's cost. The Virago title locks the generics out of any decent upgrade slots, and Prince Xizor can only be fielded at the detriment of whomever else is in your list. Guri has a good ability, but at such a low PS it isn't as usable. Unfortunately, it's just not all that great for what you're paying.

Kihraxz : Same boat as the X-Wing. Lacking any kind of repositioning means that it's harder to use, and getting it in line with other Aces means a 4 point investment. Talonbane has an amazing ability, but has no native way to take advantage of his pilot skill. Graz is absolutely worthless, but the generics are at 20 points, so you could field 5, if, you know, you REALLY wanted to lose to current meta lists.

E-Wing : A ship where it's abilities don't match up with it's cost. it's generics are unusable, Rebel swarms aren't a thing and as such Etahn sees little use, and even Corran is being edged out by Poe Dameron for similar performance at a significantly lower cost. While on paper the E-Wing is a powerful ship, it costs so much that you are unable to field other powerful ships with it, and the squad suffers as a whole.

I'll start working on pilots when i get the free time.

because tier lists are ultimately worthless

the information they provide is lacking at best, and they're ultimately riddled with subjective bias

besides, all that really matters is how many dice mods you can stuff into a ship without rendering it a stiff, shambling mess

The TIE/FO imo belongs one tier lower because outside of DL it offers nothing and is remarkable worse than the standard TIE/LN. If you rate it high just because of a single good pilot then the E-Wing and TIE/FO deserver both a higher ranking, Corran Horn is an excellent choice, just all the other E-Wing pilots suck.

For the Z-95 there is the claim in the room that you can build excellent alpha strikers with missiles and chips out of them. Did not see them in action so far, did not do the math either, but your rating might be wrong.

Besides that: Poe might be better suited as S.

Everything else does look fine to me. Oh and you missed to mention Wampa

because tier lists are ultimately worthless

Especially in X-wing, where skill in flying and properly guessing is a huge part of the game.

Also knowing what your opponent's pilots can do is a part of the game. Taking an ill-used pilot can throw your opponent off when they use their ability.

I got second at a SC flying a HWK, Kihraxz, and Starviper. Bad ships? Maybe. My opponents sure had a hard time beating them though, and with ships that are considered much better by the community.

the problem with thinking of the HWK and Viper as "bad ships" is that they kick ass when built right

so no, I wouldn't call them "Bad ships" Palob/Mux and Xizor/Guri when built properly will wreck all sorts of face

I feel like List Juggler effectively does this already.

Because it's insanly subjective.

Based on personal play style ships have completely different value.

The TIE/FO imo belongs one tier lower because outside of DL it offers nothing and is remarkable worse than the standard TIE/LN. If you rate it high just because of a single good pilot then the E-Wing and TIE/FO deserver both a higher ranking, Corran Horn is an excellent choice, just all the other E-Wing pilots suck.

For the Z-95 there is the claim in the room that you can build excellent alpha strikers with missiles and chips out of them. Did not see them in action so far, did not do the math either, but your rating might be wrong.

Besides that: Poe might be better suited as S.

Everything else does look fine to me. Oh and you missed to mention Wampa

I've personally seen TIE/FOs replace standard TIE Fighters in the filler role. Also right there in the blurb on FOs i mentioned all of the other pilots abilities. I also specifically stated i was not comparing pilots, only ships.

Yes, exactly with Z-95s. Which is one corner case use that nobody is actually doing. Thus, B Tier.

I think I firmly disagree with over half of this list =\.

Part of it is the meta; right now, Blue Squadron Pilot is solidly B tier; a year ago, it would've been S tier. So a tier list isn't a bad idea, but it requires a lot of revision.

Of course a tier list changes with revisions and as time goes by. That's just natural, and why the list would have to be designed to reflect that change.

Honestly I think it's too objective and synergy based to put into teir categories. Obviously there are pilots universally recognised as better than others, but a ships value is almost entirely based upon the role it will fill in your list. One of the best things about X-wing is the fact that there aren't many ships that are truly useless and can be used to fill gaps in a variety of lists.

Name me a use for "Hobbie" Klivian when you could take Biggs. Or Jan Ors when you could take Kyle Katarn in the Moldy Crow. Or "Chaser" when you could have "Wampa". Or Leatin A'Shera when you could take N'Dru Suhlak. Or Imperial Boba Fett when you could take Whisper or Vader or Soontir Fel.

There exist bad pilots that no one would take because better pilots are available, and there exist pilots that would be good useful if their ships weren't wretched - and sometimes even if the ship is, like Biggs.

because tier lists are ultimately worthless

the information they provide is lacking at best, and they're ultimately riddled with subjective bias

besides, all that really matters is how many dice mods you can stuff into a ship without rendering it a stiff, shambling mess

Disagree.

Tier lists ARE subjective, but are the subjective opinions of as many people as possible; if enough people agree that Han Solo is the best counter to TIE Phantoms who can decloak at the start of their turn, then Han Solo becomes a top-tier pilot. If the game shifts and Phantoms are no longer the main threat, Han Solo sinks downward.

because tier lists are ultimately worthless

Especially in X-wing, where skill in flying and properly guessing is a huge part of the game.

Also knowing what your opponent's pilots can do is a part of the game. Taking an ill-used pilot can throw your opponent off when they use their ability.

I got second at a SC flying a HWK, Kihraxz, and Starviper. Bad ships? Maybe. My opponents sure had a hard time beating them though, and with ships that are considered much better by the community.

A skilled player can win with a subpar model, it's true; I became an expert at Dan Hibiki in Street Fighter Alpha for just that reason. There's nothing quite like defeating someone addicted to Akuma with a pink-clad loser... OOSHA! DOSH'TA DOSH'TA!

But there are stronger and weaker pilots in X-Wing, and regardless of one's ability to win with the weaker ones, categorizing them would be helpful to a large number of players - and the devs, too, by giving an organized means to know what the players think is good and what they think is bad.

Unless you don't like helping people who can't judge ships as well as an expert player?

The TIE/FO imo belongs one tier lower because outside of DL it offers nothing and is remarkable worse than the standard TIE/LN. If you rate it high just because of a single good pilot then the E-Wing and TIE/FO deserver both a higher ranking, Corran Horn is an excellent choice, just all the other E-Wing pilots suck.

For the Z-95 there is the claim in the room that you can build excellent alpha strikers with missiles and chips out of them. Did not see them in action so far, did not do the math either, but your rating might be wrong.

Besides that: Poe might be better suited as S.

Everything else does look fine to me. Oh and you missed to mention Wampa

I've personally seen TIE/FOs replace standard TIE Fighters in the filler role. Also right there in the blurb on FOs i mentioned all of the other pilots abilities. I also specifically stated i was not comparing pilots, only ships.

Yes, exactly with Z-95s. Which is one corner case use that nobody is actually doing. Thus, B Tier.

It has to be done by pilots, not ships; there's too many cases of ships like HWKs being solidly C-tier by themselves but having pilots like Kyle Katarn for support or Palob for control as definite B-Rank material, or for ships that are solid S-Rank in your list like the TIE/IN having horrible pilots like Lorrir or Tetran Cowell.

And anyone who badmouths TIE/FOs as being only Omega Leader haven't used Epsilon Leader as stress support or Zeta Leader as raw, cheap damage. Good gods, he did yeoman's work for me yesterday...

I feel like List Juggler effectively does this already.

Well, it has the ship usage stats... but doesn't explain HOW or WHY the ships are there. It's raw data with no context. But is definitely a good place to start with starting the tier list.

Hrum. I think I'd start this ship by ship, going to the List Juggler, finding out which pilots are most used out of any given ship type and figuring out why and how, then blending each of those individual lists into a broader faction tier list, and THEN moving from there into an overall tier list using the data from just the pilots that make the cut.

My Store Meta, is different from your Store Meta, that is different from Regional, that has some differences from Worlds. What is your Tiers for? Not for my Meta I think.

Tier lists only work when they're matching up complete, individual entities, not simply part of a whole. A squad can be tiered, but individual ships have too any caveats to properly rank. For example, there's little doubt that Palpatine/Soontir is an S, maybe even SS tier combo, but to rate them individually ignores what makes them so incredible in the first place.

Similar things exist just due to points. Points are a finicky thing and most of the time you're looking for things like "the best ship over 30 points under 37". Ultimately a true tier ends up being "the best set of ships at 100 points" which is a bit more fluid and capable of change than your average fighting game character.

That said, I think there's value in broader ratings. For example, I think every ship can be classified as competitive or not competitive, but I don't think its worth further distinction. In addition, I think there's a top pilot, sometimes even a top 2 for each ship worth identifying. So, I guess, if it were up to me, rather than trying to break up absolutely everything into tiers, I'd just make a list of top pilots for each ship and then cut out the ships that just aren't good enough, even at their best.