Can't wait for when FFG streams Nationals and Worlds and has to cut around to different games because nobody in the top cut plays out the last round of swiss. Gonna be awesome

The odds of that are extremely low. Just think, if going into the last round the guy in ninth also had 20pts. Then all the 20pt players would have played.

What if they leave the rule and change points for a win, draw and loss? Maybe 2 points for a win, 1 point for a draw, and 0 points for a loss. That way if you are 3:1 and don't play you could loose your place in the top 8.

Here's what I find rather hilarious. When we have the topics about sportsmanship, flying casual, letting people get take backs, and etc... people who follow the rules or use the rules to there advantage to fly people off the board, not allow missed opportunities, and the other controversies we rehash get called bad sports and worse. The top 8 did the very same thing and there's a ton of people protecting them because it's in the rules. Well again so is flying people off the board, so is telling them nope you forgot your action, so is telling them you can shoot with those previous ships since when you measured you activated them and then moved on. Total hypocrisy at its finest that I suspect is because Paul was one who did it and he could never do any wrong... it would suck being at table 5 or 6 and look over to see top 8 drawing and then realizing that now all you're doing is playing for acrylic bomb tokens. It's a BS rule but it's definitely on the players for using it. Any one of them could have declined the offer and played it out and took the risk. But they chose to do it so honestly ant criticism there way is deserved. It'd be just like if someone at the final table at world's flew someone off the board or didn't let them take an action. They'd be well within the rules and there right to do it but they'd be absolutely crucified by a lot of the community. Just wait until it starts happening on the twitch streams. People set up there ships and then shake hands and pack them up. That'll be good for the game...

Again, I would like to point out that the top three didn't benefit from this. They could have lost their R6 games and still made it to the cut.

I would challenge that. Imagine you pointlessly play someone in the final round and then again during elimination. They now have fresh intelligence concerning your squad.

It wasn't a deliberate protest. It was 8 players realizing that the tournament rules allowed us to guarantee our slot in the top 8, and so we did so. It's not a good rule, but it's the rule, so we played by it. We weren't happy about locking out the lower ranked players, and we certainly did not mock them. We received mockery from a very small handful of lower ranked players, but we did not respond in kind.

We realized when we did it that the forums and facebook would explode, and it has. We were laughing at some of the ridiculous things people were saying online about it, which is probably where that rumor came from.

I like the suggestion one of the blogs put forward to remove draws entirely from X-Wing. In the case of a draw, the player with the initiative gets the win, same as in elimination rounds. It's clean and makes people play.

I like your suggestion, except it means the player with initiative might want to draw things out. Anyway, maybe that's insignificant.

The thing that bothers me about what you just said is that it sounds like the 8 of you decided on this together. My understanding is that this should be only between you and your opponent. Maybe I just mis-understood you.

In any case, thanks for posting in the thread and discussing it openly.

It wasn't a deliberate protest. It was 8 players realizing that the tournament rules allowed us to guarantee our slot in the top 8, and so we did so. It's not a good rule, but it's the rule, so we played by it. We weren't happy about locking out the lower ranked players, and we certainly did not mock them. We received mockery from a very small handful of lower ranked players, but we did not respond in kind.

We realized when we did it that the forums and facebook would explode, and it has. We were laughing at some of the ridiculous things people were saying online about it, which is probably where that rumor came from.

I like the suggestion one of the blogs put forward to remove draws entirely from X-Wing. In the case of a draw, the player with the initiative gets the win, same as in elimination rounds. It's clean and makes people play.

Hi Paul

Thanks for coming on here to respond to the criticism that the top 8's actions have received. Your post implies that the top 8 acted collectively rather than each pairing reaching the decision to ID independently. Was this is the case or have I misunderstood?

So you'd rather have them flying back and forth and not shooting? I don't think this points out an issue with IDs as much as it does that the scheduling is bad. Why is the top 8 playing each other in the final round? Because the scheduling got them in that position. Literally don't hate the player, hate the game.

Swiss the way it is now doesn't work. It needs to be three rounds to seed the single elimination, or more random. Those are my ideas.

What if they leave the rule and change points for a win, draw and loss? Maybe 2 points for a win, 1 point for a draw, and 0 points for a loss. That way if you are 3:1 and don't play you could loose your place in the top 8.

Why leave a rule that serves no beneficial purpose? You never want to make a draw a mutually desirable outcome for both players as it incentivises collusion. Intentional drawing only serves to play to that. It can only be used to manipulate scoring so I struggle to see why it was added.

Can someone with more time than I see if this rule was added across the board to all FFG competitive games or just to X-Wing? It may be another case of Organized Play coming up with an idea and applying it to everything without actually thinking about the nature of that game. Remember when they ruled that we had to sleeve promo pilot cards so that people couldn't identify your pilot cards from the backs when hidden card information isn't part of the game?

I haven't been keeping up with X-Wing news that much lately as I've been played the Game of Thrones LCG (another community up in arms about the ID rule) but I'm under the impression that Hothie no longer plays X-Wing. I'd really like to here his take on this and whether or not it fits with the 'Fly Casual' spirit he established.

What if they leave the rule and change points for a win, draw and loss? Maybe 2 points for a win, 1 point for a draw, and 0 points for a loss. That way if you are 3:1 and don't play you could loose your place in the top 8.

Why leave a rule that serves no beneficial purpose? You never want to make a draw a mutually desirable outcome for both players as it incentivises collusion. Intentional drawing only serves to play to that.

Can someone with more time than I see if this rule was added across the board to all FFG competitive games or just to X-Wing? It may be another case of Organized Play coming up with an idea and applying it to everything without actually thinking about the nature of that game. Remember when they ruled that we had to sleeve promo pilot cards so that people couldn't identify your pilot cards from the backs when hidden card information isn't part of the game?

It's been added to all games and I believe that all of the other games' communities have an issue with it.

Apparently during the Hoth Open players took intentional draws to preserve their spots in the standings, then told the TOs they didn't discuss place or MoV when deciding to draw, despite doing so. Can't say that's really in the spirit of preserving the integrity of the tournament, but apparently I'm in the minority here.

The rule itself flies directly in the face of preserving the integrity of the tournament. You can't blame the players for using a rule as it was intended to be used.

And before anyone says that that's not what it's for, if so what is it for? Can anyone think of a use for it other than to manipulate standings? If a match is already inconsequential you don't need an intentional draw rule. I can't understand why they added it.

Apparently during the Hoth Open players took intentional draws to preserve their spots in the standings, then told the TOs they didn't discuss place or MoV when deciding to draw, despite doing so. Can't say that's really in the spirit of preserving the integrity of the tournament, but apparently I'm in the minority here.

This is completely incorrect. The person who was involved in the draw posted a description of it and he called the judge before discussing it at all in front of him, including explaining to his opponent how a draw would affect the standings.

I'll concede your point if you can show me that only one intentional draw occurred at the Hoth Open. I'll also disclaim that I wasn't there, and I'm reposting what one of my friends overheard, but I have no reason not to trust what he's saying.

But you know, Fly Casual or whatever.

This is what happens when the head of OP comes from a game like MTG...these guys in the VA regional all colluded to preserve their spots in the cut. In the rules it specifically has a prohibition on ID in the case that it affects the integrity of the tournament. So if someone who wasnt in the top 8 already could have made it in to top 8 by winning that last round because of a higher seeded players subsequent loss then yea they messed it up. Crappy on the players who did it and on the TO for allowing it. You advanced by not playing the game and then nulled the rest of the fields chances by doing it...pretty sh*tty.

Make IDs a loss for both players. 0pnts/0MOV. If you are confident that you can make the cut with your current accumulation of points and you and your opponent agree then fine. It only benefits or hurts you and has no bearing on the rest of the field.

FFG needs to revisit this rule ASAP!

Really poor showing by all involved, disappointed to say the least.

I hope we dont see this type of shenanigans in ATL next week

The thing with MTG is that it's a very different game. Whether it works there or not is besides the point, it's apples and oranges.

Wow, just wow. The rule was clearly installed because people were tired of starting x-1 but missing the cut because they lost in the final round. Those people constantly got passed by other players that started x-2 and as a result played weaker opponents. Allowing them to amass a better mov. Taking an ID does not ruin the integrity of the game. It rewards someone for winning early and often.

Wow, just wow. The rule was clearly installed because people were tired of starting x-1 but missing the cut because they lost in the final round.

Play to win. If you don't want to play go home.

The optimal word there being 'Play'. This isnt playing, its Match Fixing.

By the last round of a Swiss you should be paired with someone right at your level, ie potentially your most difficult match up of the day, that could be a real decider... but you know what, the rules say i can skip that and take the easy way out. Use any excuse you like but if i was that guy in 9th, id be royally pissed. He played that last match, the toughest match up of his day etc, he pulled out a win, and then he gets told he may as well not have bothered?

If that were me I **** sure wouldnt take part in any organised event (for any game) in that store, ever again if thats the tactics they allow.

http://m.imgur.com/a/ncUkW

Is this the mindset we want of our top 8 players? That if you're not good enough to be top by the last swiss round than you need to fly better? Go to the link and read this garbage.

Wow, just wow. The rule was clearly installed because people were tired of starting x-1 but missing the cut because they lost in the final round. Those people constantly got passed by other players that started x-2 and as a result played weaker opponents. Allowing them to amass a better mov. Taking an ID does not ruin the integrity of the game. It rewards someone for winning early and often.

Bull. It rewards them for not playing.

How about the x-2 player who's first game was v the eventual x-0 winner against the x-1er who got lucky in round 1 and then lost when they drew someone actually good?

It's an awful rule.

I won't say anything against players who use it to their advantage, because that's the nature of competition to win legally however you can...

But it's an awful rule. If you don't want to play then you should take a 100 point mov hit.

It just seems so outta the spirit of competitive play. I can show up to a regional turny scheduled for 6 rds. I have a bye from an sc. I play 4 rounds and make the cut. Player b comes plays is heart out and sits on bubble going to the Last round and then gets told his last round of Swiss is piontless. And no one can see why players are upset.

Any arguments that this can be compared to Magic are null. Wins, losses and draws in Magic are very cut and dry. You can't say "Well, he only lost by a couple life points, so that's a modified win". It's a win, or it's a loss, or it's a draw. And draws occur regularly. Because they occur regularly, it is nearly impossible to police artificial draws if intentional draws were not allowed. Draws in X-wing are so rare, I'm not sure many of us have even seen one. But there are plenty of very tight wins and modified wins that occur, whereas in Magic these results are impossible to come by. Due to these differences alone, there is no way we can compare the two games scoring systems.

Wow, just wow. The rule was clearly installed because people were tired of starting x-1 but missing the cut because they lost in the final round. Those people constantly got passed by other players that started x-2 and as a result played weaker opponents. Allowing them to amass a better mov. Taking an ID does not ruin the integrity of the game. It rewards someone for winning early and often.

I originally had a thought process like this, but this line of thinking indicates the last round, which should be the most telling round, is insignificant to those players. What if they had these same pairings (which they had in the final round) in round 1? Obviously they would play them out, and the final outcome of the tournament would be 100% different. Just because they would have a different road to x-2 doesn't mean they deserve it more.

For example:

Me and a buddy are trying to get to a local game store from the same starting position. First one to arrive gets a $100 credit. He takes the route left, I take the route straight. My route is initially faster, but I get stuck at a light before I get to the store. His route is a little longer, but he doesn't run into any lights that hold him back. The light changes for me just as my buddy turns the corner, and we arrive at approximately the same time, even though I had been closer to the store the whole length of the race. I am then rewarded the store credit because obviously I had chosen the superior route, I just got hung up on that stupid light!

Now, we know that this simply isn't fair to my buddy. It is basically saying that last length of the race he drove to catch up while I was stuck at the light didn't matter to the race. That is what the intentional draw also tells those x-2 players.

The answer is to either eliminate the draw completely from the game or to restructure the scoring system.

People would be much more accepting of this if the stance of FFG for the last four years hadn't been an absolute "Do not collude in any way, shape or form to manipulate your ranking or you're out." To then have not only ranking manipulation but rules introducted for the purpose of ranking manipulation is quite the disconnect.

I'll concede your point if you can show me that only one intentional draw occurred at the Hoth Open. I'll also disclaim that I wasn't there, and I'm reposting what one of my friends overheard, but I have no reason not to trust what he's saying.

But you know, Fly Casual or whatever.

I can verify what Alex said. It was the last round of swiss; I was playing one board up (playing Drew Bishop on top board) from that ID and watched the whole thing happen. I watched all the way down the line of games and that was the only match where an ID happened.

Granted there could have been one much further down, and it wouldn't have effected the top standings at all.

BTW I heard some scuttlebutt yesterday at CaC in South Bend saying that I offered Drew a draw and he declined. This is incorrect. Neither of us brought up ID and we played it out.

Intentional Draw is simply a bad rule.

Frankly, if you signed up to play a tournament, then play it all the way through. If your final match doesn't matter, who cares. Play it for fun, or to tighten up your game if you feel like you need to. Saying "Nah, the rules allow me to sit this one out" is a cop-out and lacks integrity. When you could possibly lose and miss the cut but use a rule that you know is bad to rules-lawyer your way out of having to compete is utterly cowardly (not a slam on pheaver, as multiple people already pointed out he and the other top three wouldn't be effected by this at all).

FFG needs to get rid of this rule and sit down to figure out a more balanced way to make the tournament pairing work.