Surely the ID rule is neither here nor there. If two players want a draw they can just both start with their ships facing the wrong way...

that would be an obvious case of collusion

They should of ALL been DQ'd by the TO for collusion of the scoring system and unsporting conduct. Given a 12 month ban from all organised events (even monthly store events). If they are found to have done it again then a 24 month ban.

Yes it is now in the rules but so is the rule about concocting scores to better your position (against the rules as per the rule book). ALL 8 players did this so none of them missed the cut. The TO should of had the balls to kick them all out of the event.

WE DO NOT WANT CHEATS PLAYING THIS GAME AND DRAGGING X-WING INTO THE SEWERS AMONGST THE **** THAT OTHER GAME SYSTEMS THINK IS OK.

In the end, no matter weather the whole thing was intended by FFG or not, weather it was illegal or not, the whole thing is going to stick to those 8 players and the TO. The "Roanoke 8" will always be carrying that stigma, and especially for those who had the chance to be eliminated in that final round, any successes this "season" will be soured.

It reminds me of the "Disgrace of Gijón" or "Anschluss" in the 1982 football/soccer worldcup, when Germany was leading 1:0 against Austria after 10 minutes, a result which enabled both of them to advance past the group stages. The remaining 80 minutes saw just lackluster passing and no attempt of either team to score. It was perfectly legal, but the whole world was disguisted at that kind of behaviour.

Can I just say I'm mildly pleased it happened in a place called Roanoke, rather than, say Milwaukee or something?

Roanoke just has more of a conspiracy sound to it. Roanoke Incident sounds more exciting.

They should of ALL been DQ'd by the TO for collusion of the scoring system and unsporting conduct. Given a 12 month ban from all organised events (even monthly store events). If they are found to have done it again then a 24 month ban.

Yes it is now in the rules but so is the rule about concocting scores to better your position (against the rules as per the rule book). ALL 8 players did this so none of them missed the cut. The TO should of had the balls to kick them all out of the event.

WE DO NOT WANT CHEATS PLAYING THIS GAME AND DRAGGING X-WING INTO THE SEWERS AMONGST THE **** THAT OTHER GAME SYSTEMS THINK IS OK.

I agree that the TOs were in the wrong (see my post on the previous page of this topic) but you can't punish the players for doing something that the TOs allowed them to do. The TOs should have said "No, you are colluding and that isn't allowed, even by the Intentional Draw rule, therefore you must play your games and we will be watching you all closely" but the fact that they didn't, doesn't mean the players should be punished.

Can I just say I'm mildly pleased it happened in a place called Roanoke, rather than, say Milwaukee or something?

Roanoke just has more of a conspiracy sound to it. Roanoke Incident sounds more exciting.

My first assumption of something called "The Milwaukee Incident" would be that it involved beer.

Can I just say I'm mildly pleased it happened in a place called Roanoke, rather than, say Milwaukee or something?

Roanoke just has more of a conspiracy sound to it. Roanoke Incident sounds more exciting.

It's not the first incident in Roanoke either.

CROATOAN.

It will make them think again about cheating in the future along with anyone else. It is a great game with good players and a good social gathering. It does not need to be tainted by these 8 cheats and damaging the community as a whole.

FFG needs to drop this stupid rule immediately and if they don't then the TO's need to DQ people for unsportsmanlike conduct every time it happens.

The TO should of called it at the end of the round after taking the names of the players and kicked them out, not during. Would of made it a lot better. Or he should of just said to them "Carry on playing like this if you want, but read the rules carefully and fully."

Can I just say I'm mildly pleased it happened in a place called Roanoke, rather than, say Milwaukee or something?

Roanoke just has more of a conspiracy sound to it. Roanoke Incident sounds more exciting.

It's not the first incident in Roanoke either.

CROATOAN.

That was on Roanoke Island. Different location.

I do have to say that if I ever had a time machine, one of the things I would want to do is find out just what happened there, though.

It will make them think again about cheating in the future along with anyone else. It is a great game with good players and a good social gathering. It does not need to be tainted by these 8 cheats and damaging the community as a whole.

FFG needs to drop this stupid rule immediately and if they don't then the TO's need to DQ people for unsportsmanlike conduct every time it happens.

They didn't cheat. Just stop.

Can I just say I'm mildly pleased it happened in a place called Roanoke, rather than, say Milwaukee or something?

Roanoke just has more of a conspiracy sound to it. Roanoke Incident sounds more exciting.

It's not the first incident in Roanoke either.

CROATOAN.

That was on Roanoke Island. Different location.

I do have to say that if I ever had a time machine, one of the things I would want to do is find out just what happened there, though.

Agreed. It would be interesting. Most likely they just moved.

Can I just say I'm mildly pleased it happened in a place called Roanoke, rather than, say Milwaukee or something?

Roanoke just has more of a conspiracy sound to it. Roanoke Incident sounds more exciting.

It's not the first incident in Roanoke either.

CROATOAN.

That was on Roanoke Island. Different location.

I do have to say that if I ever had a time machine, one of the things I would want to do is find out just what happened there, though.

Agreed. It would be interesting. Most likely they just moved.

maybe they had a tournament with the natives, and after some hot debate over ethics and collusion, they were run out of town.

Can I just say I'm mildly pleased it happened in a place called Roanoke, rather than, say Milwaukee or something?

Roanoke just has more of a conspiracy sound to it. Roanoke Incident sounds more exciting.

It's not the first incident in Roanoke either.

CROATOAN.

I saw an episode of the X files on Roanoke in the 90's.

Coincidence? Both our game and that show start with an X.

Definately a conspiracy!

They should of ALL been DQ'd by the TO for collusion of the scoring system and unsporting conduct. Given a 12 month ban from all organised events (even monthly store events). If they are found to have done it again then a 24 month ban.

Yes it is now in the rules but so is the rule about concocting scores to better your position (against the rules as per the rule book). ALL 8 players did this so none of them missed the cut. The TO should of had the balls to kick them all out of the event.

WE DO NOT WANT CHEATS PLAYING THIS GAME AND DRAGGING X-WING INTO THE SEWERS AMONGST THE **** THAT OTHER GAME SYSTEMS THINK IS OK.

They are not cheats. They were not in the position they were in because they were cheating. Seriously, you are including the best player in the game in that list. While everyone is not happy how this happened, I am confident in saying none of these 8 players are cheaters, nor will they be tempted to cheat.

They should of ALL been DQ'd by the TO for collusion of the scoring system and unsporting conduct. Given a 12 month ban from all organised events (even monthly store events). If they are found to have done it again then a 24 month ban.

Yes it is now in the rules but so is the rule about concocting scores to better your position (against the rules as per the rule book). ALL 8 players did this so none of them missed the cut. The TO should of had the balls to kick them all out of the event.

WE DO NOT WANT CHEATS PLAYING THIS GAME AND DRAGGING X-WING INTO THE SEWERS AMONGST THE **** THAT OTHER GAME SYSTEMS THINK IS OK.

I agree that the TOs were in the wrong (see my post on the previous page of this topic) but you can't punish the players for doing something that the TOs allowed them to do. The TOs should have said "No, you are colluding and that isn't allowed, even by the Intentional Draw rule, therefore you must play your games and we will be watching you all closely" but the fact that they didn't, doesn't mean the players should be punished.

Having seen the uproar when FFG itself has DQ'ed 3/4 of a top table of the AGOT Melee match, why would you think the TO's would even be comfortable with DQ'ing their top 8 players. I can guarantee, you would've seen an equally sized backlash against the tournament. Hell, it might even be worse. FFG does not have the structure to support judges in such situations. Just look at what happened last month over a simple accusation of fixed dice. This venue and judge would've been crucified for taking such an action. And the streaming of the tournament did not help. Seriously, how simple of a decision do you think this was? They allowed what was legal by the tournament rules, which in this situation, was the best of two very, very crappy situations.

Intentional Draw was always collusion. It is a legal exception.

It's not cheating if the TO rules the way they did - the rules aren't particularly explicit when it comes to this type of situation but they are clear that it's up to the TO to approve a ID. imo it was the wrong call, but that's an issue with a lack of FFG support more than anything else.

The ID rule has been added allowing players to CHEAT. The TO should of called them on this and he/she didn't. Hopefully they will realise their error and not make this mistake if they ever TO again. If I was one of the players who missed the cut because of this I would of made the TO read this rule and get them DQ'd

Unfortunatlly for you, the TO will now point to Hoth, say that an FFG TO did rule this different and tell you than that FFG is above their own rules and you are out of luck. Besides calling honestly for a ban after there had been an FFG TO allowing this is silly. I am on board when you call this move against the rules, but DQ someone for just trying to gain an advantage on something that has been approoved by FFG even when not by FFG rules is silly and way to harsh. There can be always rules disputes and the TO is responsible to clear those up.

@ Toqtamish

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden. Players cannot reference outside material or information during a round. However, players may reference official rule documents at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule documents. The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct.

So the above quote from the rules regarding the 'manipulation of scoring is expressly forbidden' is not classed as cheating in your opinion??

Personally, that IS cheating and If I ever met them at an event I would call them cheats. As this will never happen I will just have to say it here.

You are entitled to say what you think and I am entitled to correct you if you are wrong, as in this case. They manipulated the scoring so they could all make the cut. This is against the rules. Therefore they cheated and its plain for everyone who plays X-Wing and reads the rules to see. It is there in black and white.

The ID rule has been added allowing players to CHEAT. The TO should of called them on this and he/she didn't. Hopefully they will realize their error and not make this mistake if they ever TO again. If I was one of the players who missed the cut because of this I would of made the TO read this rule and get them DQ'd

It isn't cheating as the rules expressly permit Intentional Draws now as of the last update. I doubt it will for much longer. Whether you personally view it as cheating has zero relevance.

I guess the limits to being a good ambassador for a game stop at the game table when there's an opportunity for winning by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of sportsmanship...

This has nothing to do with it. Just be polite and knowledgeable and a good teacher of the game.

If you're at a tournament, play to win. Deny triggers and intentionally draw if that's the best option. Do it in a polite manner and follow the rules.

I'm sure when someone new to the game approaches Paul Heaver, he's a great ambassador and teacher of the game.

Again, Fly Casual has just created a bunch of Bonzo Madrid's. Ender in a desperate situation wins the game on a technicality, making a huge dazzling distraction as he sends a small team towards the enemy gate to trigger the end game ritual, winning the game without even scoring one kill. And Bonzo tries to kill him for it. What honor you have Bonzo.

Your quote, what topic is that from??

In the 2016 Store Championship results thread, I talked about how I won a match with 5 Alpha Squadron Interceptors and 5 Autothrusters by non-verbally consenting to my opponent performing missed actions on the first turn or two when it didn't matter, and then when my opponent moved all his ships simultaneously and then went to do actions with them all I did not consent because he was range 1 of my 5 Interceptors. It didn't help matters that in further posts I talked about 'baby seal clubbing', lol.

I then got a PM from pheaver. My current signature is a quote from that exchange.

OH, You're that *******... not surprised

Can I just say I'm mildly pleased it happened in a place called Roanoke, rather than, say Milwaukee or something?

Roanoke just has more of a conspiracy sound to it. Roanoke Incident sounds more exciting.

It's not the first incident in Roanoke either.

CROATOAN.

That was on Roanoke Island. Different location.

I do have to say that if I ever had a time machine, one of the things I would want to do is find out just what happened there, though.

Probably someone with a time machine showed up and screwed up the timeline something fierce...

If id missedbout on the cut because of this having won my final game to squeeze in as would have been the case for at least one person here withou the ID,id have been fuming.

It's a poor rule, poorly worded and imenented. You can ID but not if it counts as collusion blah blah.

To my mind this incident is clear collusion. Maybe not across the whole 8 but at each table. ID specifically for guaranteeing the cut is manipulation of the scoring system and should fall under the rule about sportsmanlike conduct.

I'm not blaming the players for asking. It's not their fault the requests were accepted.

The TO could and in my personal opinion should have denied the ID to any table where one or both could fail to qualify. Then monitor the games.

However...

Hoth had already set a precedent making this an impossible stance for the TO to realistically take. I'm not sure how I would have felt trying to enforce my interpretation here with a clear precedent from FFG the other way.

The community needs to get off the players backs. It needs to get off the TO's back and focus on what's now needed. A change back for the ID rule as a minimum (a change to a minor issue that created a much larger one instead) and possible revisiting the whole Tourny structure going forward.

No retrospective action should take place but FFG should act fast for going forward.

If id missedbout on the cut because of this having won my final game to squeeze in as would have been the case for at least one person here withou the ID,id have been fuming.

It's a poor rule, poorly worded and imenented. You can ID but not if it counts as collusion blah blah.

To my mind this incident is clear collusion. Maybe not across the whole 8 but at each table. ID specifically for guaranteeing the cut is manipulation of the scoring system and should fall under the rule about sportsmanlike conduct.

I'm not blaming the players for asking. It's not their fault the requests were accepted.

The TO could and in my personal opinion should have denied the ID to any table where one or both could fail to qualify. Then monitor the games.

However...

Hoth had already set a precedent making this an impossible stance for the TO to realistically take. I'm not sure how I would have felt trying to enforce my interpretation here with a clear precedent from FFG the other way.

The community needs to get off the players backs. It needs to get off the TO's back and focus on what's now needed. A change back for the ID rule as a minimum (a change to a minor issue that created a much larger one instead) and possible revisiting the whole Tourny structure going forward.

No retrospective action should take place but FFG should act fast for going forward.

easily fixed by making an ID worth 0 tourney points. Then the top players (Pheaver at end of swiss at world's,undefeated players in last round of regional swiss, etc) can take an ID, relax a bit before the cut happens, having earned their spot by not losing any games. Then all players that need to play to gain or maintain their spot do.

Many have said, if PHeaver had lost his last game, with his MOV he was almost assured the cut anyway, so an ID that awards 0 tourney points isn't in any way restricted to undefeateds

Pop quiz

Who below said the following

"Yes, it is not good thing to do what I did, but the rules allow it so it's completely legal"

- Banker/ Accountant

- Defence Lawyer

- X wing tournament player.

Can I just say I'm mildly pleased it happened in a place called Roanoke, rather than, say Milwaukee or something?

Roanoke just has more of a conspiracy sound to it. Roanoke Incident sounds more exciting.

It's not the first incident in Roanoke either.

CROATOAN.

That was on Roanoke Island. Different location.

I do have to say that if I ever had a time machine, one of the things I would want to do is find out just what happened there, though.

Probably someone with a time machine showed up and screwed up the timeline something fierce...

Huh, did I will do that?