I guess the limits to being a good ambassador for a game stop at the game table when there's an opportunity for winning by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of sportsmanship...

This has nothing to do with it. Just be polite and knowledgeable and a good teacher of the game.

If you're at a tournament, play to win. Deny triggers and intentionally draw if that's the best option. Do it in a polite manner and follow the rules.

You don't win by exploiting a certain loophole in the tournament system that lets you ignore playing the **** game for an entire round.

Win clean or don't bother. Win by PLAYING the game, not abusing the system

They're not Intentionally drawing for all of their games, just the last round. They still played what, 4 actual rounds of Swiss, and then some Elimination rounds?

You can fall in battle like the cherry blossom, or you can win.

I guess the limits to being a good ambassador for a game stop at the game table when there's an opportunity for winning by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of sportsmanship...

This has nothing to do with it. Just be polite and knowledgeable and a good teacher of the game.

If you're at a tournament, play to win. Deny triggers and intentionally draw if that's the best option. Do it in a polite manner and follow the rules.

I'm sure when someone new to the game approaches Paul Heaver, he's a great ambassador and teacher of the game.

Again, Fly Casual has just created a bunch of Bonzo Madrid's. Ender in a desperate situation wins the game on a technicality, making a huge dazzling distraction as he sends a small team towards the enemy gate to trigger the end game ritual, winning the game without even scoring one kill. And Bonzo tries to kill him for it. What honor you have Bonzo.

Your quote, what topic is that from??

In the 2016 Store Championship results thread, I talked about how I won a match with 5 Alpha Squadron Interceptors and 5 Autothrusters by non-verbally consenting to my opponent performing missed actions on the first turn or two when it didn't matter, and then when my opponent moved all his ships simultaneously and then went to do actions with them all I did not consent because he was range 1 of my 5 Interceptors. It didn't help matters that in further posts I talked about 'baby seal clubbing', lol.

I then got a PM from pheaver. My current signature is a quote from that exchange.

If a person wants to draw to guarente he makes top 8 but his oppenent who would also be guarented top 8 if he drew says no. Is he a bad player for forcing the game? A good an honorable player or an evil dasterdly fellow?

If a person wants to draw to guarente he makes top 8 but his oppenent who would also be guarented top 8 if he drew says no. Is he a bad player for forcing the game? A good an honorable player or an evil dasterdly fellow?

I choose option C: a very bad rule has put him in a situation where there are no good choices.

I guess the limits to being a good ambassador for a game stop at the game table when there's an opportunity for winning by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of sportsmanship...

This has nothing to do with it. Just be polite and knowledgeable and a good teacher of the game.

If you're at a tournament, play to win. Deny triggers and intentionally draw if that's the best option. Do it in a polite manner and follow the rules.

I'm sure when someone new to the game approaches Paul Heaver, he's a great ambassador and teacher of the game.

Again, Fly Casual has just created a bunch of Bonzo Madrid's. Ender in a desperate situation wins the game on a technicality, making a huge dazzling distraction as he sends a small team towards the enemy gate to trigger the end game ritual, winning the game without even scoring one kill. And Bonzo tries to kill him for it. What honor you have Bonzo.

Your quote, what topic is that from??

In the 2016 Store Championship results thread, I talked about how I won a match with 5 Alpha Squadron Interceptors and 5 Autothrusters by non-verbally consenting to my opponent performing missed actions on the first turn or two when it didn't matter, and then when my opponent moved all his ships simultaneously and then went to do actions with them all I did not consent because he was range 1 of my 5 Interceptors. It didn't help matters that in further posts I talked about 'baby seal clubbing', lol.

I then got a PM from pheaver. My current signature is a quote from that exchange.

And you're proud of this? QED man.

The way I see it, the only time ID's should be permitted is when there is no mathematical way some guy other than the current top 8 can make the cut.

I have no problems in this case to let the top 8 rest a bit before the cut rounds, than spend another 75 minutes in a typical procedure.

That said, as long as there is still even a slim mathematical possibility some other guy can make the cut, ID's should not be allowed for anyone.

I guess the limits to being a good ambassador for a game stop at the game table when there's an opportunity for winning by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of sportsmanship...

This has nothing to do with it. Just be polite and knowledgeable and a good teacher of the game.

If you're at a tournament, play to win. Deny triggers and intentionally draw if that's the best option. Do it in a polite manner and follow the rules.

I'm sure when someone new to the game approaches Paul Heaver, he's a great ambassador and teacher of the game.

Again, Fly Casual has just created a bunch of Bonzo Madrid's. Ender in a desperate situation wins the game on a technicality, making a huge dazzling distraction as he sends a small team towards the enemy gate to trigger the end game ritual, winning the game without even scoring one kill. And Bonzo tries to kill him for it. What honor you have Bonzo.

Your quote, what topic is that from??

In the 2016 Store Championship results thread, I talked about how I won a match with 5 Alpha Squadron Interceptors and 5 Autothrusters by non-verbally consenting to my opponent performing missed actions on the first turn or two when it didn't matter, and then when my opponent moved all his ships simultaneously and then went to do actions with them all I did not consent because he was range 1 of my 5 Interceptors. It didn't help matters that in further posts I talked about 'baby seal clubbing', lol.

I then got a PM from pheaver. My current signature is a quote from that exchange.

And you're proud of this? QED man.

It is pretty funny and it saved me 20 points of MoV. Probably more than that because I was able to keep my entire force preserved, and 5 Interceptors is more survivable than 4 because their offense is so nuts.

I guess the limits to being a good ambassador for a game stop at the game table when there's an opportunity for winning by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of sportsmanship...

This has nothing to do with it. Just be polite and knowledgeable and a good teacher of the game.

If you're at a tournament, play to win. Deny triggers and intentionally draw if that's the best option. Do it in a polite manner and follow the rules.

I'm sure when someone new to the game approaches Paul Heaver, he's a great ambassador and teacher of the game.

Again, Fly Casual has just created a bunch of Bonzo Madrid's. Ender in a desperate situation wins the game on a technicality, making a huge dazzling distraction as he sends a small team towards the enemy gate to trigger the end game ritual, winning the game without even scoring one kill. And Bonzo tries to kill him for it. What honor you have Bonzo.

Your quote, what topic is that from??

In the 2016 Store Championship results thread, I talked about how I won a match with 5 Alpha Squadron Interceptors and 5 Autothrusters by non-verbally consenting to my opponent performing missed actions on the first turn or two when it didn't matter, and then when my opponent moved all his ships simultaneously and then went to do actions with them all I did not consent because he was range 1 of my 5 Interceptors. It didn't help matters that in further posts I talked about 'baby seal clubbing', lol.

I then got a PM from pheaver. My current signature is a quote from that exchange.

And you're proud of this? QED man.

It is pretty funny and it saved me 20 points of MoV. Probably more than that because I was able to keep my entire force preserved, and 5 Interceptors is more survivable than 4 because their offense is so nuts.

Just out of curiosity, were all of his ships same PS in a formation, or did he just move all of his at once (of varying skills and abilites, etc.) because all of yours were done by then being PS1?

I guess the limits to being a good ambassador for a game stop at the game table when there's an opportunity for winning by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of sportsmanship...

This has nothing to do with it. Just be polite and knowledgeable and a good teacher of the game.

If you're at a tournament, play to win. Deny triggers and intentionally draw if that's the best option. Do it in a polite manner and follow the rules.

I'm sure when someone new to the game approaches Paul Heaver, he's a great ambassador and teacher of the game.

Again, Fly Casual has just created a bunch of Bonzo Madrid's. Ender in a desperate situation wins the game on a technicality, making a huge dazzling distraction as he sends a small team towards the enemy gate to trigger the end game ritual, winning the game without even scoring one kill. And Bonzo tries to kill him for it. What honor you have Bonzo.

Your quote, what topic is that from??

In the 2016 Store Championship results thread, I talked about how I won a match with 5 Alpha Squadron Interceptors and 5 Autothrusters by non-verbally consenting to my opponent performing missed actions on the first turn or two when it didn't matter, and then when my opponent moved all his ships simultaneously and then went to do actions with them all I did not consent because he was range 1 of my 5 Interceptors. It didn't help matters that in further posts I talked about 'baby seal clubbing', lol.

I then got a PM from pheaver. My current signature is a quote from that exchange.

And you're proud of this? QED man.

It is pretty funny and it saved me 20 points of MoV. Probably more than that because I was able to keep my entire force preserved, and 5 Interceptors is more survivable than 4 because their offense is so nuts.

Just out of curiosity, were all of his ships same PS in a formation, or did he just move all of his at once (of varying skills and abilites, etc.) because all of yours were done by then being PS1?

He moved his PS 2 Palpshuttle.

Then he moved all of his PS 4 ships at the same time.

Then Omega Leader.

Forgot if he went on to move Omega Leader and then tried to put focuses down on his 3 PS 4's thereby missing his opportunities for actions with all of his PS 4 ships, or if he went to focus with all his PS 4's before moving Omega Leader and only skipping 2 actions.

Either way, wasted a free Crack Squadron/Wampa, and since he had no focuses he didn't kill an Interceptor. He rolled plenty of focus results, haha.

Everything was moved in proper PS order, he just skipped a bunch of action opportunities and I used it to get an easy win.

This proves my point that many people who purport to fly casual are in reality very militant about it.

Fly Casual has nothing to do with the success of this game's community, it's polite and knowledgeable people that grow it.

Ironic coming from the keyboard warrior who will attack anyone, even new players, who dare to fly a ship with a primary weapon turret. Sorry mate, you have no credibility on this topic.

I guess the limits to being a good ambassador for a game stop at the game table when there's an opportunity for winning by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of sportsmanship...

This has nothing to do with it. Just be polite and knowledgeable and a good teacher of the game.

If you're at a tournament, play to win. Deny triggers and intentionally draw if that's the best option. Do it in a polite manner and follow the rules.

I'm sure when someone new to the game approaches Paul Heaver, he's a great ambassador and teacher of the game.

Again, Fly Casual has just created a bunch of Bonzo Madrid's. Ender in a desperate situation wins the game on a technicality, making a huge dazzling distraction as he sends a small team towards the enemy gate to trigger the end game ritual, winning the game without even scoring one kill. And Bonzo tries to kill him for it. What honor you have Bonzo.

Your quote, what topic is that from??

In the 2016 Store Championship results thread, I talked about how I won a match with 5 Alpha Squadron Interceptors and 5 Autothrusters by non-verbally consenting to my opponent performing missed actions on the first turn or two when it didn't matter, and then when my opponent moved all his ships simultaneously and then went to do actions with them all I did not consent because he was range 1 of my 5 Interceptors. It didn't help matters that in further posts I talked about 'baby seal clubbing', lol.

I then got a PM from pheaver. My current signature is a quote from that exchange.

And you're proud of this? QED man.

It is pretty funny and it saved me 20 points of MoV. Probably more than that because I was able to keep my entire force preserved, and 5 Interceptors is more survivable than 4 because their offense is so nuts.

Just out of curiosity, were all of his ships same PS in a formation, or did he just move all of his at once (of varying skills and abilites, etc.) because all of yours were done by then being PS1?

I moved with my Alphas at PS 1.

He moved his PS 2 Palpshuttle.

Then he moved all of his PS 4 ships at the same time.

Then Omega Leader.

Forgot if he went on to move Omega Leader and then tried to put focuses down on his 3 PS 4's thereby missing his opportunities for actions with all of his PS 4 ships, or if he went to focus with all his PS 4's before moving Omega Leader and only skipping 2 actions.

Either way, wasted a free Crack Squadron/Wampa, and since he had no focuses he didn't kill an Interceptor. He rolled plenty of focus results, haha.

Everything was moved in proper PS order, he just skipped a bunch of action opportunities and I used it to get an easy win.

Says so much about you as an individual that this is something you're proud of.

As someone who was there I am ashamed to have gone to this event. The top 8 was a joke and this needs to addressed by FFG Organized play before the next Regional. It was a good event up till the last round, no issues just one repairing due to drops after the lunch break.

When members of the top 8 are making fun of lower seeds cause they blocked them from advancing they have broken the spirit of competitive play. The language that was used towards the lower seed player was disparaging and uncalled for since they didn't even play out the final round.

When even the TO's are embarrassed when announcing the standings for the top 16, giving the 9th seed the TO dice set, it makes me not want to be a part of organized play.

I've seen some Facebook posts that were pretty shameful from a top 8 player from this event. I was embarrassed for him. But if this is true...

This proves my point that many people who purport to fly casual are in reality very militant about it.

Fly Casual has nothing to do with the success of this game's community, it's polite and knowledgeable people that grow it.

Ironic coming from the keyboard warrior who will attack anyone, even new players, who dare to fly a ship with a primary weapon turret. Sorry mate, you have no credibility on this topic.

Whether or not the person saying something is a hypocrite has no bearing on its truth.

Don't forget lots of bitching and moaning about whatever list you aren't flying, PGS.

I'm not exactly innocent and I'm a hypocrite when I say, "Hate the game not the player", but the post I made still stands.

It's something I should be more careful of, differentiating between the players using turrets/whatever else I hate and the actual broken game ruining thing itself. The local Super Dash player is better at the game than I am actually. Super Dash still is the equivalent of closing your eyes and slamming down your palm repeatedly on all the buttons in a fighting video game though.

Screw the limelight and screw the pedestal (flagpole) some people expect all of the high level competitors to be atop. This game is awesome because there is no Bobby Fischer. It doesn't matter how much you win, you might lose the next game you play. Against anybody. To call anybody out on making a fair, logical, and rules sanctioned decision to give them the best chance of winning is asinine. "Oh you took the target lock instead of the boost because you're just trying to win the tournament" yes. yes I am doing that. Isn't that why most of us are here? Or do they have some delusion that the drunken-master-i-don't-care-about-running-competitive-lists-heavy-scyk-runnin dudebro will stumble his way to victory in high level prestigious competition. That is an insult to everyone who has made any effort to get better at the game.

What's the saying, "Ideas are like air conditioners, the sh*tty ones are always the loudest"?

I guess the limits to being a good ambassador for a game stop at the game table when there's an opportunity for winning by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of sportsmanship...

This has nothing to do with it. Just be polite and knowledgeable and a good teacher of the game.

If you're at a tournament, play to win. Deny triggers and intentionally draw if that's the best option. Do it in a polite manner and follow the rules.

I'm sure when someone new to the game approaches Paul Heaver, he's a great ambassador and teacher of the game.

Again, Fly Casual has just created a bunch of Bonzo Madrid's. Ender in a desperate situation wins the game on a technicality, making a huge dazzling distraction as he sends a small team towards the enemy gate to trigger the end game ritual, winning the game without even scoring one kill. And Bonzo tries to kill him for it. What honor you have Bonzo.

Your quote, what topic is that from??

In the 2016 Store Championship results thread, I talked about how I won a match with 5 Alpha Squadron Interceptors and 5 Autothrusters by non-verbally consenting to my opponent performing missed actions on the first turn or two when it didn't matter, and then when my opponent moved all his ships simultaneously and then went to do actions with them all I did not consent because he was range 1 of my 5 Interceptors. It didn't help matters that in further posts I talked about 'baby seal clubbing', lol.

I then got a PM from pheaver. My current signature is a quote from that exchange.

And you're proud of this? QED man.

It is pretty funny and it saved me 20 points of MoV. Probably more than that because I was able to keep my entire force preserved, and 5 Interceptors is more survivable than 4 because their offense is so nuts.

Just out of curiosity, were all of his ships same PS in a formation, or did he just move all of his at once (of varying skills and abilites, etc.) because all of yours were done by then being PS1?

I moved with my Alphas at PS 1.

He moved his PS 2 Palpshuttle.

Then he moved all of his PS 4 ships at the same time.

Then Omega Leader.

Forgot if he went on to move Omega Leader and then tried to put focuses down on his 3 PS 4's thereby missing his opportunities for actions with all of his PS 4 ships, or if he went to focus with all his PS 4's before moving Omega Leader and only skipping 2 actions.

Either way, wasted a free Crack Squadron/Wampa, and since he had no focuses he didn't kill an Interceptor. He rolled plenty of focus results, haha.

Everything was moved in proper PS order, he just skipped a bunch of action opportunities and I used it to get an easy win.

I have been in the situation your opponent was in and I got pulled up on it by my opponent and couldn't take my actions and my opponent was right to do so I have no il will against him for it they are the rules

now when im in the situation where all my ships move before or after my opponent I say allowed my action and ask if its ok to place the tokens after I move all my ships and act on there answer.

changing to doing it this way has made me a better player and not someone who has to really on there opponent know what's going on inside my head

that said you still could be everything that's wrong in this game

It's. Not collusion. Collusion. Is done in secret. This is not the players or TO at fault. They followed the rules. Don't like the rules fine ******* don't but don't get pissy with people who followed the rules as they currently exist.

What's kind of sad and funny about the whole thing is even if ffg revokes the rule. All 8 players could still have flown in a circle for 75 min and never fired a shot. Resulting in them still drawing.

What's kind of sad and funny about the whole thing is even if ffg revokes the rule. All 8 players could still have flown in a circle for 75 min and never fired a shot. Resulting in them still drawing.

True. We would still be in a position to query their sportsmanship however.

It will be interesting to see if/how the main podcasts react to this débâcle. Both Nova Squadron and Scum and Villainy were represented in that top 8 (pheaver and antigrapist respectively).

I have to say I've come around to the following position:

1. The 8 players (probably*) did nothing wrong and don't deserve to be vilified. The fault lies with FFG OP implementing a controversial policy without sufficient thought. (*I'm not sure if there was collusion between the four tables or not)

2. I would have preferred it if pheaver had rejected the chance to ID and taken a lead on behalf of the community, but I recognise that he is under no obligation to do so.

3. I think Hothie has been really great for this community and we all owe him a debt of gratitude but the unfriending etc is not a particularly edifying way to express disagreement with others' actions. Like I said, as far as I can see, none of the 8 cheated. I don't like what they did and I wouldn't do it myself but it's an entirely subjective matter. I hope someone can mediate between Hothie and pheaver as 'civil war' is not what the community needs.

4. FFG need to shape up. This was completely foreseeable. It was a question of 'when' not 'if'.

What's kind of sad and funny about the whole thing is even if ffg revokes the rule. All 8 players could still have flown in a circle for 75 min and never fired a shot. Resulting in them still drawing.

They really can't, that is a clear case of collusion that would get them chucked out.

FFG currently have a glaring contradiction on their hands. On one side they have set a precedent for allowing IDs that manipulate scoring (Hoth Open) at the same time as it is clear (as it aways had been) that manipulating scoring is not allowed.

The problem lies in that the precedent they set breaks another rule, yet they still allowed it, or worse yet left it to TO's to judge it with a dodgy precedent set and no guidance.

2. I would have preferred it if pheaver had rejected the chance to ID and taken a lead on behalf of the community, but I recognise that he is under no obligation to do so.

Look at it fromt he other side. You're pheaver's opponent and offer him an ID. The other 3 tables all took draws and guaranteed their place in the cut. Pheaver looks at you and says "Sorry man, you're bad luck to be matched against the 3-time world champion. We gotta play it out so I don't look bad". And now you just got screwed because you're matched with the 3 time world champion and have to play the game out (with a decent chance of losing, though obviously not guaranteed since he didn't end up in first). So if you lose that game and miss the cut as a result, how do you feel now? And how many people would be calling pheaver names and calling him out or trying to shame him for forcing someone out of the cut for losing to him when everyone else took the draws?

I don't support the ID rule, but as long as it's there, I absolutely don't blame or hold any anger for any of the players who take advantage of it.

2. I would have preferred it if pheaver had rejected the chance to ID and taken a lead on behalf of the community, but I recognise that he is under no obligation to do so.

Look at it fromt he other side. You're pheaver's opponent and offer him an ID. The other 3 tables all took draws and guaranteed their place in the cut. Pheaver looks at you and says "Sorry man, you're bad luck to be matched against the 3-time world champion. We gotta play it out so I don't look bad". And now you just got screwed because you're matched with the 3 time world champion and have to play the game out (with a decent chance of losing, though obviously not guaranteed since he didn't end up in first). So if you lose that game and miss the cut as a result, how do you feel now?

I don't support the ID rule, but as long as it's there, I absolutely don't blame or hold any anger for any of the players who take advantage of it.

I just said that my subjective opinion is that I would have preferred it if he hadn't taken the ID, but that I objectively recognise that he was under no obligation to do so. I would not have wanted him to posture to look good; I would have wanted to him to lead a challenge against something that is clearly going to be controversial and bad for the health of the game. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong about this: enough people are upset that it is already a problem. The two World Champions are at daggers drawn and I'm sure other key community members will get sucked into it and all because of a short-sighted decision by FFG to solve a problem that wasn't really a problem.

The tournament rules docs that introduced the ID rule to all of FFG's competitive games were absolute messes that were filled with cut and paste errors and clearly didn't recognise or cater for the specifics of individual games. This was an accident waiting to happen. The only surprise is that it happened so quickly.

Side note: there have already been issues at two AGOT LCG regionals, although not on this scale.

The tournament rules docs that introduced the ID rule to all of FFG's competitive games were absolute messes that were filled with cut and paste errors and clearly didn't recognise or cater for the specifics of individual games. This was an accident waiting to happen. The only surprise is that it happened so quickly.

This is the crux of it. Wouldn't be surprised if someone's being yelled at at HQ this morning.

The tournament rules docs that introduced the ID rule to all of FFG's competitive games were absolute messes that were filled with cut and paste errors and clearly didn't recognise or cater for the specifics of individual games. This was an accident waiting to happen. The only surprise is that it happened so quickly.

This is the crux of it. Wouldn't be surprised if someone's being yelled at at HQ this morning.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised to find out that the change was motivated by issues with certain LCGs (i.e. the asymmetric ones) and applied to X-Wing as part of an unthinking 'one size fits all' approach.

2. I would have preferred it if pheaver had rejected the chance to ID and taken a lead on behalf of the community, but I recognise that he is under no obligation to do so.

Look at it fromt he other side. You're pheaver's opponent and offer him an ID. The other 3 tables all took draws and guaranteed their place in the cut. Pheaver looks at you and says "Sorry man, you're bad luck to be matched against the 3-time world champion. We gotta play it out so I don't look bad". And now you just got screwed because you're matched with the 3 time world champion and have to play the game out (with a decent chance of losing, though obviously not guaranteed since he didn't end up in first). So if you lose that game and miss the cut as a result, how do you feel now? And how many people would be calling pheaver names and calling him out or trying to shame him for forcing someone out of the cut for losing to him when everyone else took the draws?

I don't support the ID rule, but as long as it's there, I absolutely don't blame or hold any anger for any of the players who take advantage of it.

I think many people have missed the social pressures associated with that particular situation. Paul is getting called out when all he did was act pragmatically (like the rest did), why are the rules different for Paul as Word Champ? But there is also an aspect of dominoes here which makes collusion hard to disprove. Collusion does not have to be explicit, it can also be implicit, and can be the result of underlying social pressures. If they are doing it, why shouldn't I? It could be a clear case of conformity. Sure the maths say it was each of their own best interests, but that does not exclude the social pressure to behave in a particular way.

I think a better analogy than "collusion" per se is a cartel. "An association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition." It is the last bit that is of relevance here. For a cartel it matters little whether it was premeditated or not. It is still anti-competitive. Cartels are obviously self-serving and thus are a pragmatic choice, but also exclusively we see them as morally questionable due to their anti-competitive nature.

As the wise man, Ice-T once said, "don't hate the playa, hate the game."