BTW, this is the post Paul was responding to:

Edited for double post

Is that intepretation? Yes. Is that what hothie meant? I don't know. Is that how pheaver read it? Again, I don't know.

Maybe we should just stick to what we know and what people are actually saying, instead of putting words in people's mouth? If that's what hothie meant, and if that's how pheaver interpreted it, then that's for them to say. Not for us to spin it for them.

Then luckily for you there's a nice shiny Facebook screencap a few posts up that requires no intepretration.

Yes, that doesn't help Kinney's cause, does it now? As I said earlier, both of them need to take it outside and offline. Doesn't paint either them in a good light.

#pheaverkilledflycasual

(Disclaimer I don't know Paul, just think its funny)

But seriously 8 people all taking draws is soo gaming the system it can't be a good look for the game.

So if you looked at each individually which one do you think had anything to gain by playing? It's not the ID that is the problem here but the sequence that led to such an obvious use for it by so many.

Would the uproar exist had one pair played? More specifically if the two players at 25 points decided that they'd fight it out just because although I guess with the next six players taking a ID that means they should be DQed for playing a game knowing that what happens isn't going to change the final results one bit.

BTW, this is the post Paul was responding to:

is he wrong?

No, but he could have articulated it without the language and personal insult. The ad hominems do dilute his core premise.

Fly casual???

Reading through this thread, I see nothing of the sort. On one side, I see apologists for unsportsmanlike conduct. "If the rules allow it, I'm gonna do it!" At the other side, a bunch of people on soap boxes calling for the heads of others for HOW THEY PLAYED (or, didn't play) A GAME.

Were some people screwed out of slots in the top 8? Probably. Did anyone die? Lose their livelihood? Were lives ruined?

Seriously, this thread needs some bloody perspective!

You do know that most of the "apologists" acknowledge that it is a crappy situations. Right?

Paul has every right to be upset after what Doug posted today. I don't blame him at all. I was disgusted when I saw Dougs post throwing everyone under the bus. He killed his own mantra with that post. Paul is a human being. Stop putting him on some kind of pedestal people.

On one side, I see apologists for unsportsmanlike conduct. "If the rules allow it, I'm gonna do it!"

When you put it like that you make it sound like a 'technically legal rules loophole that's within the rules but everyone's a bit eh on it' situation, not an 'FFG expressly added "you can do this" to the rules in the last update and said you can do it in person at one of their big tournaments too' situation.

would a few pages back be a good time for the mod's to lock this thread, now? never?

I'mma gonna go fly some more.

BTW, this is the post Paul was responding to:

is he wrong?

Not in my book.

Even when I would have done the same in context of the TO allowing it. I can live with disrespecting rules which I consider anti-competitive and I give not a **** thing about "Fly Casual" in tournament environments. I would even go so far and say: I demand better from a TO than flying casual. Seems like I am a worse person than Heaver and not only in moving plastic toys around on a table. ;-)

But all this does not change that pro gamers, and apparently all X-Wing world champions agree that allowing IDs in this circumstances is a bad idea. Heaver was clear that he would prefer no draws at all, and I guess Kinney will say something similar, if he had not done so already.

OK serious question was it really ffg op running adepticon like actually paid employees or was it just volunteers from the community? Cause I'm pretty sure I saw the nova podcast TO guy there as a judge...

Paul has every right to be upset after what Doug posted today. I don't blame him at all. I was disgusted when I saw Dougs post throwing everyone under the bus. He killed his own mantra with that post. Paul is a human being. Stop putting him on some kind of pedestal people.

At least he isn't cutting down on players that travel for competition.

Thank you.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

It simply is anti-competitive and interpreting the rules in a way that allows match fixing and standing manipulations is for me actually a fly casual attitude from the TO, because apparently the integrity of the tournament has such a low importance, the TO is so relax about it that they literally allow standing manipulations with IDs.

I don't think you understand what Fly Casual means. This is why Paul is upset.

Paul, please. Those of us who have met you know you're a nice guy. Please don't let internet nerdrage do this to you. It would break Pao's heart.

Had I not seen Doug's posts, I would've been easily convinced that Pao LeHever had hacked Paul's account.

----------

Clearly this needs to be addressed by FFG. That's all there is to it. None of us can make the change, so let's all behave a little better until a change is or isn't made.

Fly Casual.

Why do I get the impression most of us who really oppose this are from the UK?

I'm Canadian and I'm appalled by the whole thing. Very opposed.

Hmm so it's more a commonwealth thing interesting.

The forums itself are more of a Commonwealth thing, besides, German here ;-)

Most of us American players oppose the ID rule from a spirit of fair play. I had 2 friends from my home state in the top 13 with high MOV that were greatly discouraged over this. One of these guys I play with regularly was considering dropping Xwing in favor of other games earlier this year and we encouraged him to play on, because he has contributed much to growing the community. He helped me go from a new player unable to win a tournament game to somebody who can compete and now win more than I lose. I was considering an upcoming regional, but now, without a Bye, am wondering if it is worth the trip. I finished 4-1 at our local SC, but MOV kept me out of the final 4 cut. I think all of us have a similar view of the rule.

FFG established the rule, set a precedent by allowing it at the Hoth Open, and essentially made it an accepted path to securing yourself in the cut. The gaming community has now spoken and I hope FFG will hear this and revoke the rule.

In broader terms, I hope they also reconsider all of the tournament rules and look at how tiebreakers are determined. I tend to run lists with Imperial Ties and sacrifice to win the game. This puts me at a disadvantage on MOV and means I could miss the cut at 5-1 against a player at 4-2 due to modified wins. I went 8-1 in an Escalation tournament and beat the only other player at 8-1 head to head. I came in second based on tournament points and MOV - and even the other player was surprised. No big deal, beacause I got everything except the medal, but it was a little deflating to know my close loss made that difference.

Play the game, base placement on wins and losses, and then use MOV as the tiebreaker and for ranking.

Come on everybody do some serious hugging it out.

Sounds like the number of Swiss rounds is wrong, and ya'll are losing your heads about this.

There is no such thing as Fly Casual. It is apparently become a flag to fly whenever someone does something you don't like, and since they are pissing you off they aren't "flying casual" because if they were, they obviously wouldn't be making you angry.

Look, the community of X-Wing that I've seen in person is lightyears ahead of this forum nonsense that is going on. This forum is the worst kind of ambassador to the game. I literally played for a year exclusively in my basement before I went to a store because the way this forum acts, the community here is far worse than any other game community I've ever seen. I'd hope that the people here can live up to reality.

If the Top 8 was entirely able to ID in, then the number of Swiss rounds is wrong. If X-Wing Events can't play enough swiss rounds to handle draws, then they shouldn't be allowed. And I'm a person that is pro intentional draw. But if they won't run a tournament that works with ID, then they shouldn't have IDs.

There is no such thing as "deserve" in a competition.

You can't expect people to hold themselves to some form of ethics beyond the ruleset.

Tar and feathering someone who abides by exactly the ruleset makes you the bad guy.

*edited for clarity and to finish a sentence*

would a few pages back be a good time for the mod's to lock this thread, now? never?

I'mma gonna go fly some more.

I'm taking bets on what time Monday morning this thread goes poof. Times submitted should be the time zone that FFG HQ is in.

You would not believe the amount of angry posts I've seen from people that have never met me, calling for my head. I can ignore all of that from random anonymous internet trolls, but it was really Doug's Facebook post that set me off. I try to make sure my "public persona" is a good ambassador for the game, since I know a lot of you only know me through podcasts and posts, but even I have limits.

So I'm Iron Man, not Cap, right?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Can I also say that I'm floored by the people who are ready to just "drop everything" and quit X-Wing for good over this. Is it a crappy situation? Yes. Will it be resolved in the future? Yes. Did Han Solo drop his cargo at the first sign of Imperial trouble? Yes. And look where it got him: frozen in carbonite.

This isn't the end of the world. Relax and enjoy your little plastic ships. And for the love of Pao LeHever, make more 'pew pew!' noises while you're at it!

Fly Casual.

"No, it does not fit with the Fly Casual spirit. As has been said to me by a friend that disagrees with me on this subject, it is another nail in the coffin of Fly Casual."

Fly Casual is the light hearted and friendly conduct during the game widely advocated by a lot of the playerbase. Saying this is a nail in the coffin of Fly Casual is saying that by drawing the final round those players are going against it, regardless of how they act during matches. Essentially, it's accusing them of fostering an unpleasant atmosphere.

Speaking as the friend who said "it" is a nail in the coffin of Fly Casual, I was referring to the ID rule. I think what happened with the Roanoke Top 8 is embarrassing for the game, because it's really hard to explain to someone why the eight best players at an event should not play the last round. (I tried to explain to my wife, and she's still confused.) And I think the ID rule is an enormous mistake that FFG should fix as soon as possible, preferably by close of business on Monday.

I still think Fly Casual is important, because I think it's important that we remember that we're all ambassadors for the game. And I think it's impossible to be an ambassador for the game when you're put in the position of either screwing over your opponent or screwing over someone on the bubble. That's why the rule hurts Fly Casual, by which I mean it hurts the community and makes it harder to bring in new tournament players.

So I think the rule is awful, but I don't have anything against the players who used it to their advantage. As I've said several times in several venues, participating in the event means agreeing to the rules, which now include intentional draws. And moreover, the eventual result of X-wing's best players taking a principled stand against ID is that they'll be largely replaced by a group that's almost as skilled and doesn't put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by following the RAW.

And if nothing else, getting angry with the players who simply played by the rules is just not a constructive use of time and energy: no player is in a position to change the rules, and the rules are the fundamental problem. So if you're going to get mad, direct that anger at Organized Play, who are the only people who can actually do something about it.

So if you're going to get mad, direct that anger at Organized Play, who are the only people who can actually do something about it.

Are there even people (plural) at FFG for Organized Play, or is it just 1/4 guy for X-Wing, similar to how FFG does their editing. ;-)

this 'both sides are bad' bull has to stop. Hothie's posts, both here and on Facebook are personal attacks thinly veiled behind cries of 'sportsmanship'. It's the passive-aggressive nature of the attacks that get me- he could at least grow a pair and not try and dance around what he's saying.

All things considered, Paul has every right to be furious about this. This isn't exploiting a poorly worded rule, this isn't finding a loophole, this is doing something FFG have explicitly given the a-ok to do. And yet we have a former world champion calling him a 'disappointment' and 'the end of casual play', from the pretense of a moral high ground.

If I were Paul, I'd be seriously considering walking away from the game, or at least competitive play. He wins his games, he follows the rules, he does his best to be an upstanding bloke and this is the thanks he gets? We as a community should be ashamed.

My 6 year old plays X Wing, but if he behaved like the prominent players here (including the world champions) then the X wing boxes would go up on the high shelf out of reach for a good long while.

I would hope that both Paul and Doug have the presence of mind to step back, reflect and then apologise to each other. That would be the real attribute of championship level play - setting the example to the next generation of players *away* from the table and those fickle green dice.

C

Simple question: How many people did this really effect? At most you could say three/six if all of those 4-1 played and the person who lost those games then lost to HORRIBLE TIE BREAKERS to some of those 3-2 players who happened to win. So you've got a little bubble with three people who can make it in. If everyone who lost the 4-1 match still made it in what was gained by playing and by all of this BS that has followed?

Had everything been played out you'd probably have maybe seen one different person in the top 8. Sure, it may suck to be that person but guess what? It already sucks to be that person who just doesn't make the cut for whatever reason. After that round filled with IDs I suspect the elimination matches should have been "better" than they would have been without them.

All of this crying over the ID is going to affect less that 5% of the players which tells me that a mountain is being made out of an ant hill.