I don't know either of these gentlemen. But what I read is a post that articulates some concerns about what has occurred in a fairly reasonable and polite tone. And whether Heaver likes it or not, the post is correct in stating that as a World Champion, his actions have consequences and will impact the player base.

We then have Heaver responding with vitriol, anger, and abuse. Like I said, I know neither individual and so can only judge them on their words...

Having seen this exact same behavior before from Hothie, who denounced people who knew him and thought of him as a friend, people are taking Hothie's side because he is espousing the rhetoric they side with. Paul's message was better as a PM,sure. But, it sounds like Hothie is responding to Paul outside the public eye as well.

Then perhaps they should both "take it outside" as it were. It's not conducive to the community or becoming to the two of them to have this play out in the public space. In my personal opinion, of course.

You would not believe the amount of angry posts I've seen from people that have never met me, calling for my head. I can ignore all of that from random anonymous internet trolls, but it was really Doug's Facebook post that set me off. I try to make sure my "public persona" is a good ambassador for the game, since I know a lot of you only know me through podcasts and posts, but even I have limits.

So I'm Iron Man, not Cap, right?

Nope, you are Bruce.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

At the end of the day -right, wrong, or otherwise- you choose to take advantage of a rule that allowed you to progress in a game by deciding with your opponent to not play the game. One of you should have lost and had their position placed in jeopardy by that loss.

Don't stamp you feet and get pouty when people call you out on it. If you really think that you did nothing wrong, then just try to say that while keeping a straight face.

You would not believe the amount of angry posts I've seen from people that have never met me, calling for my head. I can ignore all of that from random anonymous internet trolls, but it was really Doug's Facebook post that set me off. I try to make sure my "public persona" is a good ambassador for the game, since I know a lot of you only know me through podcasts and posts, but even I have limits.

So I'm Iron Man, not Cap, right?

It wasn't a deliberate protest. It was 8 players realizing that the tournament rules allowed us to guarantee our slot in the top 8, and so we did so. It's not a good rule, but it's the rule, so we played by it. We weren't happy about locking out the lower ranked players, and we certainly did not mock them. We received mockery from a very small handful of lower ranked players, but we did not respond in kind.

We realized when we did it that the forums and facebook would explode, and it has. We were laughing at some of the ridiculous things people were saying online about it, which is probably where that rumor came from.

I like the suggestion one of the blogs put forward to remove draws entirely from X-Wing. In the case of a draw, the player with the initiative gets the win, same as in elimination rounds. It's clean and makes people play.

Just because I think it is important to point out that Paul isn't exactly in support of intentional draws. But, he has been pretty honest about the fact that he would in fact do it if it meant keeping his spot in the cut.

Everything I have seen and heard from Paul points to him being an amazing asset to our community. Doesn't mean you have like this, but let's not make him a pariah.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Ha. Listen to youself.

At the end of the day -right, wrong, or otherwise- you choose to take advantage of a rule that allowed you to progress in a game by deciding with your opponent to not play the game. One of you should have lost and had their position placed in jeopardy by that loss.

Don't stamp you feet and get pouty when people call you out on it. If you really think that you did nothing wrong, then just try to say that while keeping a straight face.

Just for clarification, was Heaver and his opponent not in anyway even WHEN they would have lost? This was not the case for everyone, but at least for some of the eight.

#pheaverkilledflycasual

(Disclaimer I don't know Paul, just think its funny)

But seriously 8 people all taking draws is soo gaming the system it can't be a good look for the game.

Gaming the system is when you manipulate the rules in a way they weren't meant to be used. I can't see another use for Intentional Draws other than drawing a game to the mutual benefit of both players (and therefore inherently to the detriment of the relative positions of everyone below them.)

Can't blame players for hitting the figurative I Win button when it has "Designed, Approved and Endorsed By FFG" written on it.

I'm struggling to understand why you are absolving these 8 individuals of any personal responsibility regarding this situation.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Ha. Listen to youself.

At the end of the day -right, wrong, or otherwise- you choose to take advantage of a rule that allowed you to progress in a game by deciding with your opponent to not play the game. One of you should have lost and had their position placed in jeopardy by that loss.

Don't stamp you feet and get pouty when people call you out on it. If you really think that you did nothing wrong, then just try to say that while keeping a straight face.

I've said this three times now. Unless I'm getting the maths wrong, Paul's position was never in jeopardy from a loss, and did not really affect any of the 9-20 seed players by taking a draw.

I haven't been keeping up with X-Wing news that much lately as I've been played the Game of Thrones LCG (another community up in arms about the ID rule) but I'm under the impression that Hothie no longer plays X-Wing. I'd really like to here his take on this and whether or not it fits with the 'Fly Casual' spirit he established.

All of this is strictly my opinion:

No, it does not fit with the Fly Casual spirit. As has been said to me by a friend that disagrees with me on this subject, it is another nail in the coffin of Fly Casual.

What made this game special for many years was that it was devoid of players that would even consider taking an ID, and instead play out the rounds of the tournament that they agreed to participate in. Many people on here believe that FFG is to blame for even allowing ID's, and I can agree that FFG deserves a part of the blame.

But I also hold the players accountable for their actions, especially Paul. There is an enormous amount of newer players to this game, and they will now see that this game is no longer special, because the WAAC attitude is alive and well here just as it is in other games. No longer can newer players come to this game as a safe haven against players willing to collude to ensure they get the top prizes rather than playing out their games like everyone else at the tournament. Newer players will see the acts of these 8 people and know that winning is the only thing, and that is a very discouraging attitude to see.

And personally, I feel like the wind has been taken out of the sails of the ship that I have been trying to steer for years. I've been trying for a very long time to ensure that acts of collusion like this would not take place in the game and community that I love. The rule, which it seems most people are opposed to, can be fixed tomorrow, but the separation in this community is a scar that will never fully heal.

And to have it be perpetrated by the World Champion is just unthinkable. He knows the microscope that he is under, and he knows how this precedent will affect thousands of players around the world.

But who am I? I'm just a schmuck trying to have some fun. If this is the way the game is going, I just can't be a part of it anymore.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Glad to see the world champ bringing together the community.... Wow.

Wow, glad to see the world champ pulling the community together - seriously Paul, this post made me (and no doubt others) lose far more respect for you than engaging in stupid intentional draws ever could.

Can we not pretend that Paul doesn't have any reason to be upset with what Doug said to him. Especially since it seems Paul and Doug have met in person.

I don't know either of these gentlemen. But what I read is a post that articulates some concerns about what has occurred in a fairly reasonable and polite tone. And whether Heaver likes it or not, the post is correct in stating that as a World Champion, his actions have consequences and will impact the player base.

We then have Heaver responding with vitriol, anger, and abuse. Like I said, I know neither individual and so can only judge them on their words...

You're not picking up the heavy perjorative throughout?

I'll do some highlights for ya, complete with translation.

"No, it does not fit with the Fly Casual spirit. As has been said to me by a friend that disagrees with me on this subject, it is another nail in the coffin of Fly Casual."

Fly Casual is the light hearted and friendly conduct during the game widely advocated by a lot of the playerbase. Saying this is a nail in the coffin of Fly Casual is saying that by drawing the final round those players are going against it, regardless of how they act during matches. Essentially, it's accusing them of fostering an unpleasant atmosphere.

"What made this game special for many years was that it was devoid of players that would even consider taking an ID"

By even thinking about it you're killing the game for me.

"But I also hold the players accountable for their actions, especially Paul. There is an enormous amount of newer players to this game, and they will now see that this game is no longer special,"

By drawing this one match you have shattered the dreams of countless new players.

"the WAAC attitude is alive and well here"

By drawing this game, you have become a WAAC player, which is a player who will use any means possible to win and cares nothing for anything else.

"Newer players will see the acts of these 8 people and know that winning is the only thing"

By drawing this match you are making everyone go WAAC.

"No longer can newer players come to this game as a safe haven against players willing to collude to ensure they get the top prizes rather than playing out their games like everyone else at the tournament. Newer players will see the acts of these 8 people and know that winning is the only thing, and that is a very discouraging attitude to see."

You eight people have shattered the safety of this game and let in the hordes of evil WAACers."

"And personally, I feel like the wind has been taken out of the sails of the ship that I have been trying to steer for years."

You ruined my efforts.

"but the separation in this community is a scar that will never fully heal."

You've permanently scarred everyone by drawing this match, cutting community rifts that will never go away.

"And to have it be perpetrated by the World Champion is just unthinkable."

Perpetrated. What you have done is a crime.

"He knows the microscope that he is under, and he knows how this precedent will affect thousands of players around the world."

Every time you fail to be a paragon of my ideals you damage thousands of people.

"But who am I? I'm just a schmuck trying to have some fun. If this is the way the game is going, I just can't be a part of it anymore."

You have ruined this game for me.

Is that intepretation? Yes. Is that what hothie meant? I don't know. Is that how pheaver read it? Again, I don't know. But I were reading a thread full of abuse aimed at me and received that from someone yI physically know, I know I'd probably read it like that.

#pheaverkilledflycasual

(Disclaimer I don't know Paul, just think its funny)

But seriously 8 people all taking draws is soo gaming the system it can't be a good look for the game.

Gaming the system is when you manipulate the rules in a way they weren't meant to be used. I can't see another use for Intentional Draws other than drawing a game to the mutual benefit of both players (and therefore inherently to the detriment of the relative positions of everyone below them.)

Can't blame players for hitting the figurative I Win button when it has "Designed, Approved and Endorsed By FFG" written on it.

I'm struggling to understand why you are absolving these 8 individuals of any personal responsibility regarding this situation.

There is a difference to not liking their actions and wanting their head on a platter.

#pheaverkilledflycasual

(Disclaimer I don't know Paul, just think its funny)

But seriously 8 people all taking draws is soo gaming the system it can't be a good look for the game.

Gaming the system is when you manipulate the rules in a way they weren't meant to be used. I can't see another use for Intentional Draws other than drawing a game to the mutual benefit of both players (and therefore inherently to the detriment of the relative positions of everyone below them.)

Can't blame players for hitting the figurative I Win button when it has "Designed, Approved and Endorsed By FFG" written on it.

I'm struggling to understand why you are absolving these 8 individuals of any personal responsibility regarding this situation.

Because when the people who make the game tell you it's okay then you can't really make an argument of it being against the spirit of the game. This is less ambigious than the "spirit of the game"-ness of pre-Wave 5 blocking. It's not an exploit: they're using a rule for the only thing it can be used for.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Ha. Listen to youself.

At the end of the day -right, wrong, or otherwise- you choose to take advantage of a rule that allowed you to progress in a game by deciding with your opponent to not play the game. One of you should have lost and had their position placed in jeopardy by that loss.

Don't stamp you feet and get pouty when people call you out on it. If you really think that you did nothing wrong, then just try to say that while keeping a straight face.

I've said this three times now. Unless I'm getting the maths wrong, Paul's position was never in jeopardy from a loss, and did not really affect any of the 9-20 seed players by taking a draw.

Was this true for his opponent as well? Or did Heaver trade some rest for giving points to his opponent who made the cut because of that?

#pheaverkilledflycasual

(Disclaimer I don't know Paul, just think its funny)

But seriously 8 people all taking draws is soo gaming the system it can't be a good look for the game.

Gaming the system is when you manipulate the rules in a way they weren't meant to be used. I can't see another use for Intentional Draws other than drawing a game to the mutual benefit of both players (and therefore inherently to the detriment of the relative positions of everyone below them.)

Can't blame players for hitting the figurative I Win button when it has "Designed, Approved and Endorsed By FFG" written on it.

I'm struggling to understand why you are absolving these 8 individuals of any personal responsibility regarding this situation.

If a person sitting 9 would have had a chance at making the cut never plays again at that store and never buys xwing again because group of people and their collaboration meant he couldn't make the cut, that is on that group not FFG. It is players and TOs responsibility to ensure an enjoyable gaming experience for all.

If a person sitting 9 would have had a chance at making the cut never plays again at that store and never buys xwing again because group of people and their collaboration meant he couldn't make the cut, that is on that group not FFG. It is players and TOs responsibility to ensure an enjoyable gaming experience for all.

So should we disqualify players running quad TLT?

I liked the part when he said we felt bad for locking the lower players out... lol just not bad enough to reconsider. How dare those filthy peasants try and get their hands on our dice and challenge coins. They will accept our cluster mines and like it!

I have absolutely no idea who RedAce is.

#pheaverkilledflycasual

(Disclaimer I don't know Paul, just think its funny)

But seriously 8 people all taking draws is soo gaming the system it can't be a good look for the game.

Gaming the system is when you manipulate the rules in a way they weren't meant to be used. I can't see another use for Intentional Draws other than drawing a game to the mutual benefit of both players (and therefore inherently to the detriment of the relative positions of everyone below them.)

Can't blame players for hitting the figurative I Win button when it has "Designed, Approved and Endorsed By FFG" written on it.

I'm struggling to understand why you are absolving these 8 individuals of any personal responsibility regarding this situation.

There is a difference to not liking their actions and wanting their head on a platter.

Hyperbole much?

I don't consider holding a person to account for their actions a case of calling for their head.

BTW, this is the post Paul was responding to:

If a person sitting 9 would have had a chance at making the cut never plays again at that store and never buys xwing again because group of people and their collaboration meant he couldn't make the cut, that is on that group not FFG. It is players and TOs responsibility to ensure an enjoyable gaming experience for all.

So should we disqualify players running quad TLT?

No as I can play well and beat TLT, I can't beat 8 opponents collectively deciding to be asshats.

If a person sitting 9 would have had a chance at making the cut never plays again at that store and never buys xwing again because group of people and their collaboration meant he couldn't make the cut, that is on that group not FFG. It is players and TOs responsibility to ensure an enjoyable gaming experience for all.

So should we disqualify players running quad TLT?

No as I can play well and beat TLT, I can't beat 8 opponents collectively deciding to be asshats.

Firstly, Top 8 ID isn't an unbeatable strategy as they have to get to the Top 8 first. How do you get there? Crushing all your opponents. Aka, "play well".

And secondly, I'll quote:

"It is players and TOs responsibility to ensure an enjoyable gaming experience for all."

Again, we DQ for Quad TLT, yes?

Is that intepretation? Yes. Is that what hothie meant? I don't know. Is that how pheaver read it? Again, I don't know.

Maybe we should just stick to what we know and what people are actually saying, instead of putting words in people's mouth? If that's what hothie meant, and if that's how pheaver interpreted it, then that's for them to say. Not for us to spin it for them.

Is that intepretation? Yes. Is that what hothie meant? I don't know. Is that how pheaver read it? Again, I don't know.

Maybe we should just stick to what we know and what people are actually saying, instead of putting words in people's mouth? If that's what hothie meant, and if that's how pheaver interpreted it, then that's for them to say. Not for us to spin it for them.

Then luckily for you there's a nice shiny Facebook screencap a few posts up that requires no intepretration.

It requires two parties to use so if you say you'd never take one then you'll never need to worry about it.

Except the people who were denied final placing by others exploiting this rule did have to worry about it.

And then what ever happened to the "MIND YOUR OWN **** BUSINESS" attitude that people seem spout about when it comes to the idea that someone could point out triggers and other situations that are obviously being missed? It's not YOUR game that's ending in a draw so you don't get ANY say in it.

You're going to great lengths (and great caps) to justify an obvious and flagrant abuse of the spirit of wargaming and good sportsmanship.

I'm sorry- I never got the memo you were the sole arbiter of what constitues 'abuse' of 'the spirit of wargaming and good sportsmanship'.

If you're going across messageboards calling people names and casting aspersions on other peoples character because they followed a rule you personally find objectionable? You can get down off the ******* 'sportsmanship' horse mate.

Fly casual???

Reading through this thread, I see nothing of the sort. On one side, I see apologists for unsportsmanlike conduct. "If the rules allow it, I'm gonna do it!" At the other side, a bunch of people on soap boxes calling for the heads of others for HOW THEY PLAYED (or, didn't play) A GAME.

Were some people screwed out of slots in the top 8? Probably. Did anyone die? Lose their livelihood? Were lives ruined?

Seriously, this thread needs some bloody perspective!

Just for clarification, was Heaver and his opponent not in anyway even WHEN they would have lost? This was not the case for everyone, but at least for some of the eight.

Paul was quite unlikely to lose a spot in the top 8, having had the highest MoV of the 4-1s. But it was possible, because 3 of the 4-1s were going to lose, and a similar number of the 3-2s were going to win. As it turned out, no one other than #9 wound up with a high enough MoV to surpass Paul if he had lost. That means it would have come down to the MoV of both of the other 4-1s who lost passing him, but the right ones losing by the right margin could definitely have dropped his top 8 spot.

Slim chances, but possible.