....

Again, though, it's not like the rule is that you can ID for any reason. If this doesn't fall into the scoring manipulation category (at least for the games with people who weren't guaranteed a top 8) then I really don't know what would.

Why do I get the impression most of us who really oppose this are from the UK?

I'm Canadian and I'm appalled by the whole thing. Very opposed.

Hmm so it's more a commonwealth thing interesting.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Paul, please. Those of us who have met you know you're a nice guy. Please don't let internet nerdrage do this to you. It would break Pao's heart.

It requires two parties to use so if you say you'd never take one then you'll never need to worry about it.

Except the people who were denied final placing by others exploiting this rule did have to worry about it.

And then what ever happened to the "MIND YOUR OWN **** BUSINESS" attitude that people seem spout about when it comes to the idea that someone could point out triggers and other situations that are obviously being missed? It's not YOUR game that's ending in a draw so you don't get ANY say in it.

exploiting this rule

Exploit in the same sense that players exploit the maneuvering exploited high point cost ships to retain MoV, exploit the rules designed to discourage crashing to deny actions to enemy ships, exploit the upgrade card nature of the game to create very powerful ship loadouts...

It's part of the ruleset. There's nothing unfair about it in the sense that were 9th in 8th they could do exactly the same thing. The fault is with whoever shoved this into the rulesets of most FFG games seemingly without even reading them. We currently have tournament rules that expressly allow players to intentionally draw matches to retain their positions expressly disallow colluding to manipulate rankings. The players aren't at fault, whoever got lazy at Organized Play is.

It is entirely possible to not like what they did and not insult the players.

You Sir do not have enough likes on your post. And I can not give more to a single post.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Wow, glad to see the world champ pulling the community together - seriously Paul, this post made me (and no doubt others) lose far more respect for you than engaging in stupid intentional draws ever could.

Maybe you should look up the post by the other World Champ he's responding to.

It requires two parties to use so if you say you'd never take one then you'll never need to worry about it.

Except the people who were denied final placing by others exploiting this rule did have to worry about it.

And then what ever happened to the "MIND YOUR OWN **** BUSINESS" attitude that people seem spout about when it comes to the idea that someone could point out triggers and other situations that are obviously being missed? It's not YOUR game that's ending in a draw so you don't get ANY say in it.

You're going to great lengths (and great caps) to justify an obvious and flagrant abuse of the spirit of wargaming and good sportsmanship.

Seems like this is striking an uncomfortably close nerve for you.

Yea, I think this thread has gone far enough. Whether you agree or disagree with what they did, it is no reason for a flame war.

Maybe you should look up the post by the other World Champ he's responding to.

*Edit* my 1111th post! I know what I'm wishing for...

It requires two parties to use so if you say you'd never take one then you'll never need to worry about it.

Except the people who were denied final placing by others exploiting this rule did have to worry about it.

And then what ever happened to the "MIND YOUR OWN **** BUSINESS" attitude that people seem spout about when it comes to the idea that someone could point out triggers and other situations that are obviously being missed? It's not YOUR game that's ending in a draw so you don't get ANY say in it.

You're going to great lengths (and great caps) to justify an obvious and flagrant abuse of the spirit of wargaming and good sportsmanship.

Seems like this is striking an uncomfortably close nerve for you.

Spirit of the game ain't got nothing to do with it. The rules allow it or the rules don't. It's FFG's job to curate the ruleset, not the playerbase.

I haven't been keeping up with X-Wing news that much lately as I've been played the Game of Thrones LCG (another community up in arms about the ID rule) but I'm under the impression that Hothie no longer plays X-Wing. I'd really like to here his take on this and whether or not it fits with the 'Fly Casual' spirit he established.

All of this is strictly my opinion:

No, it does not fit with the Fly Casual spirit. As has been said to me by a friend that disagrees with me on this subject, it is another nail in the coffin of Fly Casual.

What made this game special for many years was that it was devoid of players that would even consider taking an ID, and instead play out the rounds of the tournament that they agreed to participate in. Many people on here believe that FFG is to blame for even allowing ID's, and I can agree that FFG deserves a part of the blame.

But I also hold the players accountable for their actions, especially Paul. There is an enormous amount of newer players to this game, and they will now see that this game is no longer special, because the WAAC attitude is alive and well here just as it is in other games. No longer can newer players come to this game as a safe haven against players willing to collude to ensure they get the top prizes rather than playing out their games like everyone else at the tournament. Newer players will see the acts of these 8 people and know that winning is the only thing, and that is a very discouraging attitude to see.

And personally, I feel like the wind has been taken out of the sails of the ship that I have been trying to steer for years. I've been trying for a very long time to ensure that acts of collusion like this would not take place in the game and community that I love. The rule, which it seems most people are opposed to, can be fixed tomorrow, but the separation in this community is a scar that will never fully heal.

And to have it be perpetrated by the World Champion is just unthinkable. He knows the microscope that he is under, and he knows how this precedent will affect thousands of players around the world.

But who am I? I'm just a schmuck trying to have some fun. If this is the way the game is going, I just can't be a part of it anymore.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Glad to see the world champ bringing together the community.... Wow.

Wow, glad to see the world champ pulling the community together - seriously Paul, this post made me (and no doubt others) lose far more respect for you than engaging in stupid intentional draws ever could.

Can we not pretend that Paul doesn't have any reason to be upset with what Doug said to him. Especially since it seems Paul and Doug have met in person.

Maybe you should look up the post by the other World Champ he's responding to.

Maybe we should just take off and nuke this whole thread from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure!

Wow I hope X-wing never becomes a game where you can win more than stuff like acryllic bits and sweet alt art!

Enjoy the game everybody, we play with cool little spaceships, our tactical knowledge and mastery of this game does not apply in real world conditions... and if somebody could hook me up with that cool alt art Disco Vader, I would appreciate it... I am not good enough to win it !

#pheaverkilledflycasual

(Disclaimer I don't know Paul, just think its funny)

But seriously 8 people all taking draws is soo gaming the system it can't be a good look for the game.

I'm ashamed of every last one of those players for taking the IDs. This is a BS rule.

Don't blame the players for the design of the system.

What a cop-out.

Ethics aren't bound by arbitrary rules. If you're exploiting a rule to gain an advantage, you're a bad person and a bad gamer. It doesn't matter if your actions were "legal".

And that is the beginning of the militant casual. Placing values on playing within the rules.

Also known as life. We do this all the time in other walks of life. Why not here too? E.G. It's legal for me to set up an offshore account to minimise the amount of tax I pay at home. But is it morally or socially the right thing to do?

Placing values playing within the rules of a game is also known as sportsmanship. You know; it's not whether we won or lost but how we played the game. Remember that?

Thank you for dropping that mic.

Why do I get the impression most of us who really oppose this are from the UK?

I'm Canadian and I'm appalled by the whole thing. Very opposed.

Hmm so it's more a commonwealth thing interesting.

The forums itself are more of a Commonwealth thing, besides, German here ;-)

Spirit of the game ain't got nothing to do with it. The rules allow it or the rules don't. It's FFG's job to curate the ruleset, not the playerbase.

Of course they got around it by making 'the spirit of the rules' an actual rule. I guess we'll see how FFG do it.

I haven't been keeping up with X-Wing news that much lately as I've been played the Game of Thrones LCG (another community up in arms about the ID rule) but I'm under the impression that Hothie no longer plays X-Wing. I'd really like to here his take on this and whether or not it fits with the 'Fly Casual' spirit he established.

All of this is strictly my opinion:

No, it does not fit with the Fly Casual spirit. As has been said to me by a friend that disagrees with me on this subject, it is another nail in the coffin of Fly Casual.

What made this game special for many years was that it was devoid of players that would even consider taking an ID, and instead play out the rounds of the tournament that they agreed to participate in. Many people on here believe that FFG is to blame for even allowing ID's, and I can agree that FFG deserves a part of the blame.

But I also hold the players accountable for their actions, especially Paul. There is an enormous amount of newer players to this game, and they will now see that this game is no longer special, because the WAAC attitude is alive and well here just as it is in other games. No longer can newer players come to this game as a safe haven against players willing to collude to ensure they get the top prizes rather than playing out their games like everyone else at the tournament. Newer players will see the acts of these 8 people and know that winning is the only thing, and that is a very discouraging attitude to see.

And personally, I feel like the wind has been taken out of the sails of the ship that I have been trying to steer for years. I've been trying for a very long time to ensure that acts of collusion like this would not take place in the game and community that I love. The rule, which it seems most people are opposed to, can be fixed tomorrow, but the separation in this community is a scar that will never fully heal.

And to have it be perpetrated by the World Champion is just unthinkable. He knows the microscope that he is under, and he knows how this precedent will affect thousands of players around the world.

But who am I? I'm just a schmuck trying to have some fun. If this is the way the game is going, I just can't be a part of it anymore.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Glad to see the world champ bringing together the community.... Wow.

Wow, glad to see the world champ pulling the community together - seriously Paul, this post made me (and no doubt others) lose far more respect for you than engaging in stupid intentional draws ever could.

Can we not pretend that Paul doesn't have any reason to be upset with what Doug said to him. Especially since it seems Paul and Doug have met in person.

I don't know either of these gentlemen. But what I read is a post that articulates some concerns about what has occurred in a fairly reasonable and polite tone. And whether Heaver likes it or not, the post is correct in stating that as a World Champion, his actions have consequences and will impact the player base.

We then have Heaver responding with vitriol, anger, and abuse. Like I said, I know neither individual and so can only judge them on their words...

#pheaverkilledflycasual

(Disclaimer I don't know Paul, just think its funny)

But seriously 8 people all taking draws is soo gaming the system it can't be a good look for the game.

Gaming the system is when you manipulate the rules in a way they weren't meant to be used. I can't see another use for Intentional Draws other than drawing a game to the mutual benefit of both players (and therefore inherently to the detriment of the relative positions of everyone below them.)

Can't blame players for hitting the figurative I Win button when it has "Designed, Approved and Endorsed By FFG" written on it.

Why do I get the impression most of us who really oppose this are from the UK?

I'm Canadian and I'm appalled by the whole thing. Very opposed.

Hmm so it's more a commonwealth thing interesting.

The forums itself are more of a Commonwealth thing, besides, German here ;-)

So the Commonwealth and the country that tried to invade it then.... twice.....

You would not believe the amount of angry posts I've seen from people that have never met me, calling for my head. I can ignore all of that from random anonymous internet trolls, but it was really Doug's Facebook post that set me off. I try to make sure my "public persona" is a good ambassador for the game, since I know a lot of you only know me through podcasts and posts, but even I have limits.

So I'm Iron Man, not Cap, right?

Spirit of the game ain't got nothing to do with it. The rules allow it or the rules don't. It's FFG's job to curate the ruleset, not the playerbase.

Unfortunately when you have two mutually exclusive and illogical rules (the sportsmanship and intentional draw rules) official legal it does end up falling onto the player base to cope. It's called 'doing a GW' I believe.

Of course they got around it by making 'the spirit of the rules' an actual rule. I guess we'll see how FFG do it.

Again, the ID rule states that the ID rule applies only when there is no conduct violation, else the TO should decline. Why on earth FFG as TO themselves did not follow this is really beyond me, but having the option for draws itself is not the main issue as long as its usage is limited. If TOs can not deal with that then naturally the only way for competitive games is to remove draws all together. And if Mr. Heaver thinks that removing draws works then I would say it is indeed mechanical sound to just do that.