Wow the world champions are really caring what anonymous people are saying over the internets?

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Opened to the last page to see how derailed the thread had gotten.

Saw that ^ post.

Dear God...what unearthly manner of thing must have happened here to warrant that from Paul? (And I mean that as in "Paul seems like a pretty reasonable fellow; what unreasonable thing happened to make him mad?")

Seriously, folks, let's take a step back.

Breathe.

Remember this game we all love to play? And those people we love to play it with?

Same game. Same people.

There's a difference between registering a complaint with a rule and insulting a person. Careful not to cross that line.

As far as I can tell there are 4 views on this (possibly 5).

1. People who like that they can win a few games, then not have to play one because they're safe. (The "Pro ID" crowd)

2. People who don't like that, but don't have a problem with it happening and would do it themselves because they want to win, and this is a smart way of doing it. (The "Anti ID but it's the rules so why not do it?")

3. People who don't like it, won't do it themselves, but understand why people would (Anti ID, Anti taking the easy option, but not bitter about it).

4. People who don't like it, won't do it themselves, hate those that do (Anti ID, Anti taking it, Anti others taking it).

And probably a 5th who we've not heard from - People who don't care one way or another.

Personally I'm in camp 3 - I'm not going to get myself in a tizz because people are playing by the tournament rules and using those rules to their advantage.

Now as for the rule itself - I'm against it as a concept, as a British person it rubs my sense of fair play and sportsmanship entirely the wrong way, as a sportsman myself who's Rugby team is currently 3 games in to an 18 game season, a team which will have to play every single one of those 18 games even if we're clear away at the top of the league after 17 games... I just can't agree with it.

To reward people for not playing the game is unfathomable to me. To not want to play the game of little plastic models because winning that game of little plastic models is more important than playing the game itself is alien to me.

I'm not sure why FFG have this rule, I'd happily see it abandoned, but I can't complain at someone who uses it in a tournament because they're not acting outside the rules of a game who's rules I've agreed to by entering the game.

Now as for flying someone off the board if they do a red while stressed(which I think someone mentioned earlier) - I won't even say that's bad sportsmanship, that's just part of the game (unless it's a new player in a casual setting, which is different)... To complain about someone flying you off the board on an illegal red move is like a Rugby player complaining about someone tackling him because he sidestepped the wrong way... But I digress.

TL;DR -

The Rules = Bad,

the Players who play to those rules = Not bad

Is winning a game of toy ships really that important to these people that they collectively seek to ruin for others. I'm very new to xwing but so far reading forums and the general vibe is xwing has a massive amount of how should I say it, players that skipped the play for fun and be creative days of old wargamming and went straight to WAAC.

Hothie has no issue insulting people he knows in real life online if they do something he feels was not "right". This isn't the first time. And clearly, he hasn't changed that much.

Semi off-topic, but Stele was streaming this event...... I bet when this happened the twitch chat was AMAZING

...

I'm sorry, I should have realized that this probably got really uncomfortable for you as the host/commentator when it went down.

I'm OK with the I.D. this being said. I think tournaments should run like they are ,but have a ruling that once a top 8 or top 4 stand out then it should go to a cut. Unless it's running like a first day Hoth event since you just need certain points to make that cut.

Wait a second … all those people who told me that it was the same at Hoth simply lied?If the cut is not changed by ID than by all means it is a legal move by the current rules. If an ID can change the cut it is currently prohibited on page 3. If Hoth simply had a minimum point limit to make the cut than by all means ID is legit and absolutely valid.Can someone confirm or refute this?

The second day of the Hoth tourney had a top 8 cut. In the final round of that day, two players took an ID because it guaranteed them making the cut. If they had played, it was likely one of them wouldn't have. There's a Reddit thread where one of the players involved explain it.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

I'm not seeing any posts here from hothie, unless this is a response to something elsewhere or I can't read. Probably the last one.

What I don't get is why people are blaming the players when A: allowing the draw is a call made by the TO, B: this was allowed at an FFG run event and C: the intentional draw rule has no other use other than to allow this. It's a high level competitive event: of course players aren't going to risk a loss when they gain nothing from a win, especially when doing so gives them a 75 minute breather. It's completely above board and within the rules: the TO evidentally didn't rule it as collusion because they allowed it.

The fault here is with whoever at Organized Play put a blanket intentional draw rule into every competitive format FFG has, based on similar past incidents probably without even reading the X-Wing rules. It is, as usual, the double-edged sword that is FFG's policy of non-communication that creates a lot of these problems.

Why do I get the impression most of us who really oppose this are from the UK?

I can understand why several in the community are upset by this rule and the way it was used in the tournament.

Not really, when I was younger and more fit I was competing for nationals in high-performance competitive sport. Fixing matches was a no go there, something could get you banned for years and end your career, and in some sports it might actually get you into literally jail. It simply is anti-competitive and interpreting the rules in a way that allows match fixing and standing manipulations is for me actually a fly casual attitude from the TO, because apparently the integrity of the tournament has such a low importance, the TO is so relax about it that they literally allow standing manipulations with IDs. From my perspective that is as anti-competitive as it gets. Players then abusing the system once a TO opens the door for it is only natural.

Why do I get the impression most of us who really oppose this are from the UK?

Nah, it is clearly coming from everywhere.

Why do I get the impression most of us who really oppose this are from the UK?

Because you're getting the wrong impression?

People are against it because the tournament rules have hammered in THIS IS WRONG DON'T DO IT since they first came out, and suddenly they add a rule to every game that only serves the purpose of enabling a player and their opponent to act to their mutual benefit rather than compete with each other. I'd be very interested to hear the rationale behind its addition. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if it was meant to be added to one game where it made sense and someone cocked up and added it to all of them. Sleeves rule everyone.

Why do I get the impression most of us who really oppose this are from the UK?

Or former colonies. (Perhaps not the US though).

But to answer the question, possibly cultural differences regarding what constitutes fair and decent play?

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

But to answer the question, possibly cultural differences regarding what constitutes fair and decent play?

Let's not go down that path.

People have tried to paint tactics they dislike as unsporting and disqualification worthy since the start. Running away and playing to the clock (MoV fort builds). Fortressing. Blocking. Using the TIE phantom at all.

Players will do whatever is most beneficial within the rules of the game. The onus is on FFG to make those rules conducive to the gameplay experience they want to make and they usually do that quite well.

This makes their adding this rule all the more baffling. I'm not angry, I'm bewildered.

A funny thing for all those anti-ID types; when you get the chance you can just screw with anyone who wants to use one. It requires two parties to use so if you say you'd never take one then you'll never need to worry about it.

You all like looking at this one example. When you hate the ID I guess that means you don't think the two who were at 5-0 should have taken it either when they are clearly would have made it anyway. Of course with no ID one could concede and they'd still both make it but how do they decide who? I know, they flip a coin and then both get DQed for whatever reason one wants to cite.

Had the scores been different you wouldn't have seen 4 tables elect to ID. THAT is what caused things to happen the way they did.

Ethics aren't bound by arbitrary rules. If you're exploiting a rule to gain an advantage, you're a bad person and a bad gamer. It doesn't matter if your actions were "legal".

I do not consider the action of taking an ID to make a cut and enjoy a break to be unethical, if the rules allow for it. Now where do we stand?

Refusal of a fact is not a refutation of a fact. /shrug

However, this kind of behavior is why so many players choose to avoid tournaments. To avoid playing with those kinds of people.

Interseting factoid.

2 players of the 8 who did not play in round 6 also had round 1 sc byes.

Kinda funny people who only played 4 games out of 6 still make the cut.

Refusal of a fact is not a refutation of a fact. /shrug

And whether something is right or wrong is an opinion, not a fact.

Why do I get the impression most of us who really oppose this are from the UK?

Or former colonies. (Perhaps not the US though).

But to answer the question, possibly cultural differences regarding what constitutes fair and decent play?

Doubt this collective draw thing would happen in Australia, I thought it was a US thing as well.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Ah well, if it wasn't on FFG's radar before, this'll do it...

It strikes me that no one is going to come out of this thread looking good. Maybe we should call it a day and wait for FFG's call. I think all that needs to be said on the matter has already been said, and once the World Champions start calling eachother names the chance of anything beneficial resulting from this discussion is nil.

It requires two parties to use so if you say you'd never take one then you'll never need to worry about it.

Except the people who were denied final placing by others exploiting this rule did have to worry about it.

Why do I get the impression most of us who really oppose this are from the UK?

I'm Canadian and I'm appalled by the whole thing. Very opposed.

Refusal of a fact is not a refutation of a fact. /shrug

And whether something is right or wrong is an opinion, not a fact.

Thaaaaat's nooooot really how it works.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Ah well, if it wasn't on FFG's radar before, this'll do it...

It strikes me that no one is going to come out of this thread looking good. Maybe we should call it a day and wait for FFG's call. I think all that needs to be said on the matter has already been said, and once the World Champions start calling eachother names the chance of anything beneficial resulting from this discussion is nil.

But I still have popcorn and the show was just starting to get interesting.