I'm ashamed of every last one of those players for taking the IDs. This is a BS rule.

Don't blame the players for the design of the system.

What a cop-out.

Ethics aren't bound by arbitrary rules. If you're exploiting a rule to gain an advantage, you're a bad person and a bad gamer. It doesn't matter if your actions were "legal".

Ethics aren't bound by arbitrary rules. If you're exploiting a rule to gain an advantage, you're a bad person and a bad gamer. It doesn't matter if your actions were "legal".

I do not consider the action of taking an ID to make a cut and enjoy a break to be unethical, if the rules allow for it. Now where do we stand? Oh wait, I guess there's not a black and white set of ethical standards, that all are beholden to, that you're the arbiter of? So maybe we need rules? Maybe that? Let's do that.

1) So you're saying the Top 8 realised together if they all did this, they'd all go through? That's collusion and it's most definitely prohibited by FFG.

2) Yes, it's a rule. But it's one that could be enacted optionally. Nothing was preventing the 8 players playing their games. Again, it says more about the players than the rule that they chose to go down that path then actually play their matches.

2) With the rule on the books, it honestly is pretty easy to understand (if not agree with) the self-preservation angle. But that leads to a follow-up thought:

If you're outraged by this, and don't want it to happen at your regional, urge your TO to not post standings. It's not possible to take an ID like this if you don't precisely know what your spot is.

There's nothing that states standings have to be posted in-between rounds. With a large enough tournament, it becomes too difficult to track everyone's scores by hand. Ignorance makes a good stop-gap measure until FFG can address what they actually want to have happen here.

I'm ashamed of every last one of those players for taking the IDs. This is a BS rule.

Don't blame the players for the design of the system.

What a cop-out.

Ethics aren't bound by arbitrary rules. If you're exploiting a rule to gain an advantage, you're a bad person and a bad gamer. It doesn't matter if your actions were "legal".

What if the only purpose of that rule is to manipulate rankings in this way and it's been allowed in a previous FFG-run event? Might as well argue blocking is "against the spirit of the game" as people used to.

It's FFG Organized's Play's job to not put in conflicting messages and rules that have no use other than to manipulate rankings into their tournament rules. Based on some of the things they've done in the past, I'd also say it's FFG Organized Play's job to know the rules of the game they're writing Tournament conditions for. Whoever had that sleeving rule to X-Wing evidentally knew next to nothing about the game other than it has cards in it.

Now that it's kicked up a merry little storm it'll likely be fixed in short order like the last three ill-conceived cock-ups in the Tournament Rules (must use Scum dials for Scum ships and therefore buy enough Most Wanteds for the dials¹, game stores must buy a ton of official FFG mats or play on bare tables, you must sleeve alt art cards so people can't identify them by their backs are the three that come to mind). It's a side effect from FFG's very hands off approach to its community.

_{1: There was sort of an argument in favour of this one, but it came across as "we want to sell more Most Wanteds".}

It wasn't a deliberate protest. It was 8 players realizing that the tournament rules allowed us to guarantee our slot in the top 8, and so we did so. It's not a good rule, but it's the rule, so we played by it.

Two things:

1) So you're saying the Top 8 realised together if they all did this, they'd all go through? That's collusion and it's most definitely prohibited by FFG.

2) Yes, it's a rule. But it's one that could be enacted optionally. Nothing was preventing the 8 players playing their games. Again, it says more about the players than the rule that they chose to go down that path then actually play their matches.

1. Insufficient evidence to draw that conclusion. It's a vague statement. They could have reached the same conclusion independently for all we know based on how he phrased it.

2. The only 2 thing I'm able to discern about these players is that when presented with 2 paths, they chose the path of least resistance. That is a very common human trait and it's not necessarily a character flaw. It is often the smart path to take. The other is that the desire to advance to the final 8 was greater than the enjoyment to be had by playing out their final game in Swiss.

While this does tell me something about the players, I don't think it makes them the villains of our drama. It was a controversial event that was allowed to happen because FFG decided to allow players to ID. A most unfortunate decision in my opinion and one I hope they correct soon.

Some food for though how to get rid of IDs and draws at all:

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.co.at/2016/04/you-cant-win-but-there-are-alternatives.html

It is mind boggling how some people say ID is collusion. And attempt to justify it with definitions and such.

It is in the rules, and like most of xwing s rules, it works as an exception to the general rules. The argument is almost ill thought as saying tycho cant do actions while stressed because the rulebook says so...

ID can easily go away if you ffg removes it, but i hope for an entire overhaul of the tournament points system. The 0 1 3 5 system is sth i dont like.

It is mind boggling how some people say ID is collusion. And attempt to justify it with definitions and such.

People aren't saying ID is collusion.

People are saying that the Top 8 with a round to go all deciding to ID simultaneously to ensure their placement reeks of collusion.

And even if it wasn't collusion, it was certainly unsportsmanlike and morally questionable.

Ah, so that's how it works, is it? When enough people say they would do the same thing, that suddenly makes it ok?

What rot.

Nope, but it suggests that there is a problem beyond the scope of the current outrage.

Some food for though how to get rid of IDs and draws at all:

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.co.at/2016/04/you-cant-win-but-there-are-alternatives.html

This highly one sided piece again.

I'm OK with the I.D. this being said. I think tournaments should run like they are ,but have a ruling that once a top 8 or top 4 stand out then it should go to a cut. Unless it's running like a first day Hoth event since you just need certain points to make that cut.

Wait a second … all those people who told me that it was the same at Hoth simply lied?

If the cut is not changed by ID than by all means it is a legal move by the current rules. If an ID can change the cut it is currently prohibited on page 3. If Hoth simply had a minimum point limit to make the cut than by all means ID is legit and absolutely valid.

Can someone confirm or refute this?

Semi off-topic, but Stele was streaming this event...... I bet when this happened the twitch chat was AMAZING

...

People aren't saying ID is collusion.

People are saying that the Top 8 with a round to go all deciding to ID simultaneously to ensure their placement reeks of collusion.

And even if it wasn't collusion, it was certainly unsportsmanlike and morally questionable.

So we are just assuming that the top 8 are all idiots who could not figure out that an ID is the safest way to make the cut and that they all had to be spoon fed the idea that an ID would be best for them?

What you see in that one tournament is a perfect storm where everything happened to align for a moment and based on threads like that seems to want to destroy the world.

I'm ashamed of every last one of those players for taking the IDs. This is a BS rule.

Don't blame the players for the design of the system.

What a cop-out.

Ethics aren't bound by arbitrary rules. If you're exploiting a rule to gain an advantage, you're a bad person and a bad gamer. It doesn't matter if your actions were "legal".

And that is the beginning of the militant casual. Placing values on playing within the rules.

People aren't saying ID is collusion.

People are saying that the Top 8 with a round to go all deciding to ID simultaneously to ensure their placement reeks of collusion.

And even if it wasn't collusion, it was certainly unsportsmanlike and morally questionable.

So we are just assuming that the top 8 are all idiots who could not figure out that an ID is the safest way to make the cut and that they all had to be spoon fed the idea that an ID would be best for them?

No, I'm not saying they're idiots at all. I'm questioning their sportsmanship and moral fibre, given the course of action they took.

I have not read 18 pages of posts but have seen feeds on facebook and other forums discussing this topic to know the gist of it.

I completely understand the ability to do this is within the rules and can again understand why the top 8 did it.

But.. (There usually is a but) may as well take the top 8 players on vassal or by most SC wins (whatever metric you want to use) and close up the rest of the competitive season. Let the elite close up the shop, keep the plebs out - don't allow for development of the top 8. Stop any chance of anyone new upsetting the apple cart.

We could argue that everyone needs to play better and win all games, but the nature of the beast is not many people will win all games. If I need to win my last match to make top 8 but only if 8th loses their last match why should I be denied that opportunity? I'm sure that example has been used already.

As I said, I know it is in the rules though it is amazing how people suddenly stick to a rule rigidly when they want to yet we're encouraged to fly casual and let someone stick their evade on the table well outside of the ship's activation window. If you're going to abide by and defend the ID rule so strongly then do it for all rules. I seem to remember when the game first came out there was a rule for placing asteroids and then players chose which side of the table they wanted to set up on... anyone stick to that one?

If ID is staying then FFG need to state their definition of what collusion is.

People aren't saying ID is collusion.

People are saying that the Top 8 with a round to go all deciding to ID simultaneously to ensure their placement reeks of collusion.

And even if it wasn't collusion, it was certainly unsportsmanlike and morally questionable.

So we are just assuming that the top 8 are all idiots who could not figure out that an ID is the safest way to make the cut and that they all had to be spoon fed the idea that an ID would be best for them?

No, I'm not saying they're idiots at all. I'm questioning their sportsmanship and moral fibre, given the course of action they took.

It is entirely possible to not like what they did and not insult the players.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

The thing is, manipulating scoring is 'expressly forbidden' in the rules. And I don't really see any excuse for a top 8 to ID if it isn't for manipulate the scoring and integrity of the tournament.

Trouble with all that is, what's a TO to do about it? Seems like a tough spot to put them in. Would he have to throw them out of the competition or something?

I'm I the only person who really doesn't give a monkeys about this?

Cheers

Baaa

I'm ashamed of every last one of those players for taking the IDs. This is a BS rule.

Don't blame the players for the design of the system.

What a cop-out.

Ethics aren't bound by arbitrary rules. If you're exploiting a rule to gain an advantage, you're a bad person and a bad gamer. It doesn't matter if your actions were "legal".

And that is the beginning of the militant casual. Placing values on playing within the rules.

Also known as life. We do this all the time in other walks of life. Why not here too? E.G. It's legal for me to set up an offshore account to minimise the amount of tax I pay at home. But is it morally or socially the right thing to do?

Placing values playing within the rules of a game is also known as sportsmanship. You know; it's not whether we won or lost but how we played the game. Remember that?

Baaa im kinda there with you. I don't think I will ever get in a situation where this would affect me, but I find it silly you can win in X-wing now by not playing x-wing.

So Doug, you want to declare war over this? Defriend people (I assume anyone else in the top 8 at Roanoke, along with the top 2 at New Mexico and Brad and Nathan from Hoth) over facebook and crap like that?

It's on.

Ok, who else isn't my friend anymore? Let me know. You guys are dead to me. All you asshats sicken me. You want me to be "X-Wing Jesus", huh? Hell, no, I'm not that guy. I'm so pissed I can't see straight.

I didn't kill Fly Casual. You jerks did.

Having seen this behavior before, I assure you, by war, it will just be Hothie throwing fits. I don't think he ever apologized for the crap he spouted about the Olivet SWM players.

So, I was also actually there, but I am one of the people who dropped. There were 45 people who were there and registered. About 6 people had store championship byes, forcing a friend of mine to sit out round 1 with a bye. He traveled two and a half hours to get there.

Three of us drove from Knoxville together. My buddy went 0-3, and I went 1-2, so at the lunch break, he and I decided to go buy Rebellion and spend the rest of the tourney enjoying ourselves with that fine board game. Both of us had decent lists, but the dice gods were against us. My win? Against my own buddy, who had driven 4 hours and stayed in my Hotel with me to get there. But okay.

My third buddy was 3-2, going into round 5. But after the announcement that all 8 had taken the ID, he was deflated. If he had won his last game, he would have been one of those 9-12 players that could advance. The air in the room was definitely one of disappointment. The fight was for the Cluster Mine acrylics, so naturally we all went "Meh?!?". When the TO asked if anyone would like to play on the video stream in Round 6 because the entire top 8 was not playing, another player shouted "Let's just put a card up that says they all took the draw." It was not a glorious afternoon for X-Wing.

The store and the organizer Star City Games were good. The facility was large and the driving snow flurries didn't scare anyone, despite the April 9th date. I was not paying attention when the IDs we declared, as my opponent had just Death Star'd Kashyyk and committed genocide against Wookies, but it filtered out quickly into the room, sapping the energy. The organizers were prepared for a much higher attendance, which surprised us all when it turned out to be only 45. So, this could just be a tempest in a teapot, brought about by a series of unlucky coincidences. I never heard the top 8 laugh at those unfortunate souls, and I know one personally (He brought a beautiful Alt Art Panda Po Dameron card for me that didn't get shipped in time for his store championship which he ran well).

It is a shame that the cut was decided by NOT playing. And who knows, playing the 6th round may have been a moot point, with the winners being the bottom of the 8, and the losers the top but with enough MOV to persevere, but the problem is we do not know what that outcome would have been. Thus a number of players feel as though the tournament was flawed. If I had persevered through my stinging losses and came out 4-2 after losing rounds 2 and 3, with MOV high enough to consider a spot in the top 8 after the tie-breaker, I frankly would have been most unhappy to realize that my chance was removed before I got to that point.