Going to go to my first and last regional in a few weeks. Getting involved in the competitive side of a taletop game had a lot of appeal for me.

but Alas.....this has MAJOR EXPLOSION!! DIRECT HIT!! my interest in pursuing it further. I worked my way through 4 store championships and struggled to do my very best and to get better while having fun WITH the compettion....not against them. the game is challenging enough for a newer guy like me without this added layer of .." we shall draw instead of play our round out that way noone else can win and work up the ladder any farther."

I`m just not interested in an additional hurdle like that.

I again state that those supporting the ID are nothing but WAAC douchenozzles who would as soon as call for your disqualification over a paintjob as play against you because they'd rather exploit poorly thought out rules than trust in their skill.

Prove. Me. Wrong.

PS: This is one of the reasons I got out of 40k...because it was filled with WAAC people who sucked all the fun out of the game and competition....and it's one of the reasons I stay away from Magic.

If I see you do it at the Atlanta Regional, I WILL call you a coward, because you will have demonstrated that you would rather hide behind a rule and the excuse of "it's a smarter move" than actually prove you're worthy of the Top 8. Which is a cowardly act.

And if I make it to the Top 8 and you ask for an ID....I'm gonna tell you to **** the hell off and that we're going to play our game out, for better or worse.

I again state that those supporting the ID are nothing but WAAC douchenozzles who would as soon as call for your disqualification over a paintjob as play against you because they'd rather exploit poorly thought out rules than trust in their skill.

Prove. Me. Wrong.

Because you are so clearly open to dissenting opinions.

I again state that those supporting the ID are nothing but WAAC douchenozzles who would as soon as call for your disqualification over a paintjob as play against you because they'd rather exploit poorly thought out rules than trust in their skill.

Prove. Me. Wrong.

Because you are so clearly open to dissenting opinions.

So far, I haven't seen proof otherwise. If you'd care to share why IDs are good without going into the "Durr get gud" territory most of the supporters have been treading in, be my guest.

If I see you do it at the Atlanta Regional, I WILL call you a coward, because you will have demonstrated that you would rather hide behind a rule and the excuse of "it's a smarter move" than actually prove you're worthy of the Top 8. Which is a cowardly act.

You sound lovely

Do we tar and feather players who drop because they have no chance? Do we criticize those on the bottom who would concede, because the last game has no real impact?

Ideally, this is what an intentional draw is. Two players at the top acknowledging that the game makes no real difference.

And even those who are not completely against intentional draws acknowledge that this isn't a good situation. But, it is also not going to be the standard for tournaments.

Going to go to my first and last regional in a few weeks. Getting involved in the competitive side of a taletop game had a lot of appeal for me.

but Alas.....this has MAJOR EXPLOSION!! DIRECT HIT!! my interest in pursuing it further. I worked my way through 4 store championships and struggled to do my very best and to get better while having fun WITH the compettion....not against them. the game is challenging enough for a newer guy like me without this added layer of .." we shall draw instead of play our round out that way noone else can win and work up the ladder any farther."

I`m just not interested in an additional hurdle like that.

Sadly I doubt you're going to be the only one put off by this incident.

Paul Heaver is just a person who happens to be very good at X-Wing. He is not X-Wing Jesus, and to expect him to uphold your personal view of what is and isn't sportsmanlike conduct is bad enough, to publicly shame him (or call for him to be banned) for not upholding it is sickening.

I mostly agree with Jimmius; although perhaps "sickening" is too strong a word. I might instead say that it is a sub-optimal choice, which I'm sure was inspired by very passionate feelings on the subject.

It is important to be respectful of our fellow players and community members whether or not we agree with the things they're doing or the points of view they're expressing, regardless of what side of the argument you come down on. Let us try to keep our discussions focused on the issues rather than on personal attacks, if we can.

None of us weighs competitive play vs. the spirit of "Fly Casual" against each other in exactly the same way that the next player does. That does not mean that you are the authority and the player who weighs the two things differently is an unredeemable scoundrel. I love the Fly Casual mantra and I appreciate that we have it, but there is no good reason here to take shots at players who are good guys, who are following legal rules, on the grounds that "they're not flying casual enough", or what have you.

We all love X-Wing here, and it is important that we have a good community to support our love of this game. Let us not vilify our fellow game enthusiasts for being notable in their success, and then following a rule with which we disagree. Instead, let us focus on making our disagreement with a bad rule heard.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. If it looks like unsportsmanlike conduct and feels like unsportsmanlike conduct, it's unsportsmanlike conduct.

I won't criticize anyone taking advantage of a legal rule. But that doesn't make it any less of a cheap move their part.

And if I make it to the Top 8 and you ask for an ID....I'm gonna tell you to **** the hell off and that we're going to play our game out, for better or worse.

I think it says a lot more about you, that you would use such language to one who, in compliance with the rules and to a mutual beneficial outcome, asked if you would be up for an ID, than it does about him.

As a matter of fact, the namecalling, outrage and foul language I have seen from the so called "Fly Casual" crowd, speaks of a crowd that isnt very casual.

Do we tar and feather players who drop because they have no chance? Do we criticize those on the bottom who would concede, because the last game has no real impact?

Ideally, this is what an intentional draw is. Two players at the top acknowledging that the game makes no real difference.

And even those who are not completely against intentional draws acknowledge that this isn't a good situation. But, it is also not going to be the standard for tournaments.

If two players at the top will be in the final group no matter what happens, good for them. They can play a stress-free game then. It's not justification for doing an intentional draw.

Who wants to go Play Imperial Assault with me?

I haven't been keeping up with X-Wing news that much lately as I've been played the Game of Thrones LCG (another community up in arms about the ID rule) but I'm under the impression that Hothie no longer plays X-Wing. I'd really like to here his take on this and whether or not it fits with the 'Fly Casual' spirit he established.

All of this is strictly my opinion:

No, it does not fit with the Fly Casual spirit. As has been said to me by a friend that disagrees with me on this subject, it is another nail in the coffin of Fly Casual.

What made this game special for many years was that it was devoid of players that would even consider taking an ID, and instead play out the rounds of the tournament that they agreed to participate in. Many people on here believe that FFG is to blame for even allowing ID's, and I can agree that FFG deserves a part of the blame.

But I also hold the players accountable for their actions, especially Paul. There is an enormous amount of newer players to this game, and they will now see that this game is no longer special, because the WAAC attitude is alive and well here just as it is in other games. No longer can newer players come to this game as a safe haven against players willing to collude to ensure they get the top prizes rather than playing out their games like everyone else at the tournament. Newer players will see the acts of these 8 people and know that winning is the only thing, and that is a very discouraging attitude to see.

And personally, I feel like the wind has been taken out of the sails of the ship that I have been trying to steer for years. I've been trying for a very long time to ensure that acts of collusion like this would not take place in the game and community that I love. The rule, which it seems most people are opposed to, can be fixed tomorrow, but the separation in this community is a scar that will never fully heal.

And to have it be perpetrated by the World Champion is just unthinkable. He knows the microscope that he is under, and he knows how this precedent will affect thousands of players around the world.

But who am I? I'm just a schmuck trying to have some fun. If this is the way the game is going, I just can't be a part of it anymore.

Agreed. It's also sad that grown people are doing this in a game where we play with little plastic toys to win other little plastic toys or other small things.

About the subject of porn, Supreme Court Justice Potter Stuart said "I know it when I see it".

I think the same thing can be said for unsportsmanlike conduct ... and we definitely saw it at the Roanoke regional ...

Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden.

The ID's the TO permitted the players to collude on, in this regional, manipulated the scoring of the final round of SWISS. Which then influenced the final top 8 results.

It should not have been allowed in my interpretation of the rules.

You honestly think that FFG did not intend for players to take IDs to ensure themselves a spot in the cut when a loss would have put them out? And that they messed up/forgot it was against the rules at the Hoth Open when their own Organized Play people were running the event? Do you actually believe all that?

Yes, I do believe this, because that is what the rule say AND said rule is explicit used as reference for IDs. FFG is legendary for their lack of bringing a point across with their own manuals, so I am not in single bit surprised when their own TO fails to play by their own rules.

Anything else would suggest that FFG is unwilling to create a competitive sports environment for X-Wing, because allowing collusion is the direct opposite of that AND opens to the door for more of that. With the way X-Wing and its meta work it would be rather easy to manipulate tournament results with a few people and the right kind of lists. The amount of money FFG is throwing at the competitive X-Wing scene and even their business model of selling cards via ship expansions suggest as well that they really care about the competitive environment and do not try to kill the whole sports aspect of their game with rulings which are totally out of line.

And let me repeat this again, there are legitimate reasons for a draw and having the option to draw intentionally in those cases is not bad. Better still would be to remove draws all together from X-Wing. But more to that at the end of my post.

It's. Not collusion. Collusion. Is done in secret. This is not the players or TO at fault. They followed the rules. Don't like the rules fine ******* don't but don't get pissy with people who followed the rules as they currently exist.

Ok, so me and my 11 buddies declare right from the beginning of the tourney that we will all support our golden player and manipulate the tournament ratings to bring our own players into the top spots, simply by manipulating results. And as we tell you this from the start it is not collusion? ;-)

WTF MAN. WTF.

col·lu·sion

kəˈlo͞oZHən/

noun

1. secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive

If manipulating results and shitting on the Tournament integrity is not collusion than what is?

What is next? Physically destroying a card or model of your opponent and than calling for the TO because his list is no longer TO legal? ;-)

You are being ridiculous. FFG sets the parameters for how the tournaments are run, TOS are suppose to run events within those parameters. TOs ignoring those parameters is not acceptable behavior from a TO, and likely would put into question the venues standing with FFG.

The TO could of ruled that the bottom seats were colluding amung themselves and not allowed it, but the TO didn't. So there is lots of ways this could of been ruled within the tournament rules to still be held to FFG standards.

There is really no wriggle-room in the wording in the tournament pack. Intentional draws are explicitly allowed. It's spectacularly clear. If a TO is to deviate from this, it is a outright change to the tournament pack and it should be posted ahead of time. Plus I don't know if that's appropriate for a store championship/regional at all.

Read it again, IDs are allowed IF and only IF they comply with the rules stated in "Unsporting Conduct". The TO can only agree to an ID if it does not cause problems with this. ONLY. If the players do not follow this than literally the consequences state in "Unsporting Conduct" apply. As long as the players follow the Guidelines against "Unsporting Conduct" they can indeed ID. And the second they are not within this rules then the TO might literally kick them out of the building. Fixing results is not within the rules. Making an early lunch break because the result of the game does not matter anymore is.

Well, FFG allowed a draw at the Hoth Open that was exactly the same situation as the draws yesterday that secured players a spot.

Really, how many in this thread was actually there.

Who wants to go Play Imperial Assault with me?

LOL. I was about to start playing IA and this discussion has probably pushed me more towards it. I mean, I'm still going to play X-wing as it's a great game in and of itself, but I can't see playing it competitively beyond my local store championships if stuff like this is going to happen. I mean, why would I travel somewhere, knowing that this could very well happen again?

Who wants to go Play Imperial Assault with me?

LOL. I was about to start playing IA and this discussion has probably pushed me more towards it. I mean, I'm still going to play X-wing as it's a great game in and of itself, but I can't see playing it competitively beyond my local store championships if stuff like this is going to happen. I mean, why would I travel somewhere, knowing that this could very well happen again?

Doesn't the intentional draw apply to all FFG games?

Who wants to go Play Imperial Assault with me?

LOL. I was about to start playing IA and this discussion has probably pushed me more towards it. I mean, I'm still going to play X-wing as it's a great game in and of itself, but I can't see playing it competitively beyond my local store championships if stuff like this is going to happen. I mean, why would I travel somewhere, knowing that this could very well happen again?

Doesn't the intentional draw apply to all FFG games?

Yes, near as I can tell.

Who wants to go Play Imperial Assault with me?

LOL. I was about to start playing IA and this discussion has probably pushed me more towards it. I mean, I'm still going to play X-wing as it's a great game in and of itself, but I can't see playing it competitively beyond my local store championships if stuff like this is going to happen. I mean, why would I travel somewhere, knowing that this could very well happen again?

Doesn't the intentional draw apply to all FFG games?

It does, but at least in the Big 3 Miniatures - X-Wing, Armada, IA - Only X-Wing has tournaments large enough to form a 'cut' with usually.

It wasn't a deliberate protest. It was 8 players realizing that the tournament rules allowed us to guarantee our slot in the top 8, and so we did so. It's not a good rule, but it's the rule, so we played by it.

Two things:

1) So you're saying the Top 8 realised together if they all did this, they'd all go through? That's collusion and it's most definitely prohibited by FFG.

2) Yes, it's a rule. But it's one that could be enacted optionally. Nothing was preventing the 8 players playing their games. Again, it says more about the players than the rule that they chose to go down that path then actually play their matches.

There is a huge difference between taking the draw and other "anti-fly casual" / "win at all costs" tactics.

Unlike flying someone off the table for selecting a red move when stressed or not letting your opponent take a forgotten action etc, taking the draw does not punish another player for unintentional mistakes. It does take advantage of the rules as the currently stand, but that's different than making e.g. a beginning player feel like they'll never learn the game well enough to be competitive.

I was at Roanoke yesterday, and was one of the players at 3-2 going into the final round (though with a pretty crappy MOV so probably out regardless). Not surprised anyone took the draw, not particularly upset they did. My take on the mood of the room was one of resignation more than anger.

For the record, If I had won my previous game and had been at 4-1, I would've taken the draw as well. But I strongly dislike the draw rule, as it makes the randomness of the first few pairings far more important and removes the sense of drama, suspense and expectation going into the final round.

It wasn't a deliberate protest. It was 8 players realizing that the tournament rules allowed us to guarantee our slot in the top 8, and so we did so. It's not a good rule, but it's the rule, so we played by it.

1) So you're saying the Top 8 realised together if they all did this, they'd all go through? That's collusion and it's most definitely prohibited by FFG.

False. It's disingenuous to take your definition of collusion and pretend that it's FFG's definition of collusion. FFG has set a precedence of allowing people to ID to secure spots for themselves after a cut. It doesn't matter what the rest of top 8 is doing, any single pair of players who took a draw would advance to the top 8.

It wasn't a deliberate protest. It was 8 players realizing that the tournament rules allowed us to guarantee our slot in the top 8, and so we did so. It's not a good rule, but it's the rule, so we played by it.

Two things:

1) So you're saying the Top 8 realised together if they all did this, they'd all go through? That's collusion and it's most definitely prohibited by FFG.

No its not. Its basic math.

If you ca see the list and results before round 6, anyone who graduated third grade can calculate that an ID will garanti them a top 8 spot, while a game might risk costing them the spot.

Its clear you do not like the rule, but claiming that 8 people who are all able to mentally add 20+1 and seeing what that means, is engaging in collusion is just plain silly.

So much salt and tears! I love it!

BTW id's existed before. At one store I matched up against a guy I know quite well and we were both undefeated in a 40 people tournament in the last round o swiss we just flew for an hour and did not take shots. Judge can't do anything about it as we do not break any rules. We both wanted to draw so none of us wanted to engage. But we still had to play it out. So I prefer to take an id rather than bump for 1 hour. Before the rule that you have to play was clunky and essentialy dead. This is much better.

The judge can disqualify you for collusion. Conspiring with your opponent to manipulate your ranking is explicitly against the rules, which is what makes the ID rule even more bizarre.

If your match is truly inconsequential and you don't want to play it then concede. If you can't then it's not an inconsequential match.