So the first round of a region does not matter because 12-16 store championship byes will be used and the last round doesn't matter because top x will decide to draw.

Is there any reason to attend a regional if you don't have a SC bye?

hmm... i'd bet this is prediction is going to come true..

first round and last round doesn't matter anymore....

New rule is basically rewarding those who win "early" - as early as SC..

WotC is many things, some bad, but they are very organized and know what they are doing when it comes to events. FFG could learn a thing or two from them.

I see I'm not 5 pages behind but still...

After playing for over 7 hours I'm thinking that if you could ID into the cut that would be a great idea allowing people to enter the elimination rounds refreshed and ready to go for another 4 hours.

I see nothing wrong here other than salty people calling players cowards and worse for wanting a break.

Wait wait wait -- every time someone brings up the "Tournaments are too long" argument, we hear, "Hey, that's part of the challenge, having the endurance to play at a high level over a long period of time!"

But now it's, "Hey, those poor Top 8 players are tired, they need a break so they can play fresh in the final rounds, let them have their tie!"

So which is it?

I'm not sure how many people argue both sides of that coin.

A lot of the time when I see the "endurance" aspect being played up it is a reason to excuse sloppy play by some party pretending that a certain trigger didn't just happen.

WotC is many things, some bad, but they are very organized and know what they are doing when it comes to events. FFG could learn a thing or two from them.

I think the problem is they're learning the wrong things. IDs are a necessary evil in Magic: draws are common enough that's it's tough to tell between "real" draws and intentional ones. Rather than put TOs in the uncomfortable and unreliable position of asking them to tell the difference, they introduced an ID rule.

X-wing is very different, and the ID rule was entirely unnecessary here. It solves a problem we just don't have, and introduced some serious ones we didn't have until now.

The issue is that their other big tournament game is pushing for them to be more like WOTC.

WotC is many things, some bad, but they are very organized and know what they are doing when it comes to events. FFG could learn a thing or two from them.

I think the problem is they're learning the wrong things. IDs are a necessary evil in Magic: draws are common enough that's it's tough to tell between "real" draws and intentional ones. Rather than put TOs in the uncomfortable and unreliable position of asking them to tell the difference, they introduced an ID rule.

X-wing is very different, and the ID rule was entirely unnecessary here. It solves a problem we just don't have, and introduced some serious ones we didn't have until now.

I never said they weren't. I said they could learn things. At this point I don't think they have.

I think this is a disgrace and I'm not even a tournament player, the rule needs changing asap and the top 8 need to be banned for a year to set an example.

The fact they were mocking people is an utter disgrace and not how this game should be seen.

I have no issue with the players, it is the rule I take issue with. 4 of the top 8 would have certainly lost, and 3 would have possibly had a lower ranking than others in the top 15 if they had playedand lost. 2 of my friends were left out due to this and had a very real chance of making the cut. The real issue is that a break should be scheduled before the cut in a big tournament, to allow time to eat and collect yourself before the final games.

The issue is that their other big tournament game is pushing for them to be more like WOTC.

That is just an assumption. X-wing is thier biggest property, it accounts for so much more of thier sales then any LCG does. Maybe even all the LCGs combined. Why would you think that Netrunner is exerting pressure of the rules of X-wing, when both already have vastly incompatible event systems?

I have browsed Stimhack enough to see it. There is enough of a contingent that wants to push for a "pro" Netrunner circuit. Enough for the fans to start it up themselves.

Netrunner and X-wing are their biggest tournament games. There is no question about that.

I think this is a disgrace and I'm not even a tournament player, the rule needs changing asap and the top 8 need to be banned for a year to set an example.

The fact they were mocking people is an utter disgrace and not how this game should be seen.

Banning people that followed the rules is ridiculous.

Clearly, they did not "follow the rules." They manipulated them for their own advantage. Reading through the different discussions, it looks like there is a rule regarding "unsportsmanlike conduct" and this seems to fit based on the intent of what happened. This means the TO probably didn't do his due dilligence to protect the integrity of the event. It also probably means FFG should send a message to the players given their status in the community that such behavior won't be tolerated by banning them from Nationals play.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

FFG implemented the intentional draw rule. 4 tables invoked it. None of the those tables required any of the others to draw to make it in, so it wasn't like they needed to have a chat about it or convince one another that they needed to draw as a group.

Do you realize how foolish it would look for FFG to implement the rule and then ban players for using it exactly as they described? It would be a bigger PR blunder than implementing the rule.

Place the blame in the correct spot.

You started out by saying you didn't know how to respond. Obviously, you decided you did know how.

But, you were wrong, and I did place the blame correctly - on FFG, the players involved, and most of all the TO. I know how to read and comprehend, which I did before forming an opinion. Thanks for your reply.

I'm sorry, but your use of the word "clearly" to explain they did not follow the rules and then stating players should get a ban when the opposite was true, including approval by the TO seemed very confusing to me. But, I wanted to give it a shot while being reasonable. I'm fine discussing the merits of the ruling (I'd like to see it gone) and even whether it was "moral" or not but it actually seems clear to me that, in terms of the rules involved, a banning is a bizarre conclusion at which to arrive.

It seems like the assumption is that they have to have the same rules for all their games. Why do people assume this? Surely it's not that big of a deal to have separate rules on this for separate games?

Actual draws are much more common in Magic than they are in X-Wing though.

If the standard for a draw in X-Wing was the same as it was in MtG then Draws would become a LOT more common. In MtG you either win or you lose. Each match may be a best of three but if you split the first two and that last round is still ongoing when time is called you have a draw. To make a MtG draw equivalent in X-Wing you would be calling all unfinished games as Draws; see how well that would go over because if you did that then the ID would seem a lot less intimidating.

Looking back at those tournament points I can't help but wonder what would happen if scoring was changed a little. If the "full win" requires either completely destroying your opponent or destroying 25 points more than he destroys that may lower some of those point values in the top 8 as they get knocked down to modified wins at best. Now let's also say that a difference in points killed of 6 or less is insignificant and really should be scored as a draw because things are so close. And finally for those games that go to time with a leader (more than 6 points ahead of the other guy) but not a clear leader (25 points ahead) let's reward a tournament point to the guy trying to keep it close. If there was more scoring that wasn't just 5/0 you could see fewer points on those leader and the chase could have more points despite having a loss or two; here I'd even move the draw/tie up to 2/2 for points. An order may still fall from this type of scoring but you shouldn't have such clear cut steps as this tournament exhibited which made taking an ID in the last round into a no-brainer. If one of those 20 point players only had 18 points you'd most likely have seen that game happening. If #9 had say 17 points instead of 15 then you'd probably have seen everyone at 20 points playing.

It seems like the assumption is that they have to have the same rules for all their games. Why do people assume this? Surely it's not that big of a deal to have separate rules on this for separate games?

Because their OP "staff" is more OP "guy". The people who probably decided on including the intentional draw probably didn't exactly put much thought about it into the individual games, just using the game to justify its inclusion to think it was reasonable to include it for all games.

I think this is a disgrace and I'm not even a tournament player, the rule needs changing asap and the top 8 need to be banned for a year to set an example.

The fact they were mocking people is an utter disgrace and not how this game should be seen.

Heaver commented in this thread that they were NOT mocking people. The players used the rule to guarantee a cut, based on prior examples and a new rule stating it is OK.

I have no issue with the players, it is the rule I take issue with. 4 of the top 8 would have certainly lost, and 3 would have possibly had a lower ranking than others in the top 15 if they had playedand lost. 2 of my friends were left out due to this and had a very real chance of making the cut. The real issue is that a break should be scheduled before the cut in a big tournament, to allow time to eat and collect yourself before the final games.

It sounds like they were making fun of the possible discussions that would arrive here and other places. Very different from mocking the people there.

I haven't been keeping up with X-Wing news that much lately as I've been played the Game of Thrones LCG (another community up in arms about the ID rule) but I'm under the impression that Hothie no longer plays X-Wing. I'd really like to here his take on this and whether or not it fits with the 'Fly Casual' spirit he established.

All of this is strictly my opinion:

No, it does not fit with the Fly Casual spirit. As has been said to me by a friend that disagrees with me on this subject, it is another nail in the coffin of Fly Casual.

What made this game special for many years was that it was devoid of players that would even consider taking an ID, and instead play out the rounds of the tournament that they agreed to participate in. Many people on here believe that FFG is to blame for even allowing ID's, and I can agree that FFG deserves a part of the blame.

But I also hold the players accountable for their actions, especially Paul. There is an enormous amount of newer players to this game, and they will now see that this game is no longer special, because the WAAC attitude is alive and well here just as it is in other games. No longer can newer players come to this game as a safe haven against players willing to collude to ensure they get the top prizes rather than playing out their games like everyone else at the tournament. Newer players will see the acts of these 8 people and know that winning is the only thing, and that is a very discouraging attitude to see.

And personally, I feel like the wind has been taken out of the sails of the ship that I have been trying to steer for years. I've been trying for a very long time to ensure that acts of collusion like this would not take place in the game and community that I love. The rule, which it seems most people are opposed to, can be fixed tomorrow, but the separation in this community is a scar that will never fully heal.

And to have it be perpetrated by the World Champion is just unthinkable. He knows the microscope that he is under, and he knows how this precedent will affect thousands of players around the world.

But who am I? I'm just a schmuck trying to have some fun. If this is the way the game is going, I just can't be a part of it anymore.

Reading this thread has been very interesting.

I started a poll about it on twitter. Would love if you chimed in there.

I haven't been keeping up with X-Wing news that much lately as I've been played the Game of Thrones LCG (another community up in arms about the ID rule) but I'm under the impression that Hothie no longer plays X-Wing. I'd really like to here his take on this and whether or not it fits with the 'Fly Casual' spirit he established.

All of this is strictly my opinion:

No, it does not fit with the Fly Casual spirit. As has been said to me by a friend that disagrees with me on this subject, it is another nail in the coffin of Fly Casual.

What made this game special for many years was that it was devoid of players that would even consider taking an ID, and instead play out the rounds of the tournament that they agreed to participate in. Many people on here believe that FFG is to blame for even allowing ID's, and I can agree that FFG deserves a part of the blame.

But I also hold the players accountable for their actions, especially Paul. There is an enormous amount of newer players to this game, and they will now see that this game is no longer special, because the WAAC attitude is alive and well here just as it is in other games. No longer can newer players come to this game as a safe haven against players willing to collude to ensure they get the top prizes rather than playing out their games like everyone else at the tournament. Newer players will see the acts of these 8 people and know that winning is the only thing, and that is a very discouraging attitude to see.

And personally, I feel like the wind has been taken out of the sails of the ship that I have been trying to steer for years. I've been trying for a very long time to ensure that acts of collusion like this would not take place in the game and community that I love. The rule, which it seems most people are opposed to, can be fixed tomorrow, but the separation in this community is a scar that will never fully heal.

And to have it be perpetrated by the World Champion is just unthinkable. He knows the microscope that he is under, and he knows how this precedent will affect thousands of players around the world.

But who am I? I'm just a schmuck trying to have some fun. If this is the way the game is going, I just can't be a part of it anymore.

Well, there you go. One of the most influential voices in the game considers ID to be antithetical to the "Fly Casual" mantra.

Thank you for coming on here and giving your opinion Hothie. That's not an easy thing to do when the spotlight, such as it is, is already on you.

I think talk of whether it's within the rules or how it fits in with the Fly Casual ethos kind of deflects away from what's really important here, and that is that what went on was very much a **** move from all those concerned.

It's legality is neither here nor there, if I was unlucky enough to play within a community where this was considered acceptable then I wouldn't be interested in playing there for very long.

I suspect that certain high profile individuals in the X-Wing community have lost an awful lot of respect in the last 24 hours. Whether that bothers them I've no idea, but since this game exists for no other reason than for like minded people to have fun together it probably should.

And yet, as was pointed out, intentional draws happened at NM, yet there was no outcry.

Yes, the situation is terrible. And I'm sure FFG is going to look at it very closely. But to think this is always going to be happening is paranoid hyperbole.

And "Fly Casual" has been dead for a long, long time. And it wasn't the WAAC players that killed it...

And yet, as was pointed out, intentional draws happened at NM, yet there was no outcry.

Yes, the situation is terrible. And I'm sure FFG is going to look at it very closely. But to think this is always going to be happening is paranoid hyperbole.

And "Fly Casual" has been dead for a long, long time. And it wasn't the WAAC players that killed it...

For what it's worth, I'm fairly sure it was only the two players who were undefeated in the last round of swiss in NM that took the ID.

I haven't been keeping up with X-Wing news that much lately as I've been played the Game of Thrones LCG (another community up in arms about the ID rule) but I'm under the impression that Hothie no longer plays X-Wing. I'd really like to here his take on this and whether or not it fits with the 'Fly Casual' spirit he established.

All of this is strictly my opinion:

No, it does not fit with the Fly Casual spirit. As has been said to me by a friend that disagrees with me on this subject, it is another nail in the coffin of Fly Casual.

What made this game special for many years was that it was devoid of players that would even consider taking an ID, and instead play out the rounds of the tournament that they agreed to participate in. Many people on here believe that FFG is to blame for even allowing ID's, and I can agree that FFG deserves a part of the blame.

But I also hold the players accountable for their actions, especially Paul. There is an enormous amount of newer players to this game, and they will now see that this game is no longer special, because the WAAC attitude is alive and well here just as it is in other games. No longer can newer players come to this game as a safe haven against players willing to collude to ensure they get the top prizes rather than playing out their games like everyone else at the tournament. Newer players will see the acts of these 8 people and know that winning is the only thing, and that is a very discouraging attitude to see.

And personally, I feel like the wind has been taken out of the sails of the ship that I have been trying to steer for years. I've been trying for a very long time to ensure that acts of collusion like this would not take place in the game and community that I love. The rule, which it seems most people are opposed to, can be fixed tomorrow, but the separation in this community is a scar that will never fully heal.

And to have it be perpetrated by the World Champion is just unthinkable. He knows the microscope that he is under, and he knows how this precedent will affect thousands of players around the world.

But who am I? I'm just a schmuck trying to have some fun. If this is the way the game is going, I just can't be a part of it anymore.

This sense of oneupmanship, of shaming and calling out players for literally doing nothing wrong (from a rules PoV) goes against Fly Casual a thousand times more than the ID rule.

FFG implementing ID reflects badly on them for not thinking it through.

The immediate community reaction to use this as a chance to slam members of the community? There's nobody we can blame for that.

Paul Heaver is just a person who happens to be very good at X-Wing. He is not X-Wing Jesus, and to expect him to uphold your personal view of what is and isn't sportsmanlike conduct is bad enough, to publicly shame him (or call for him to be banned) for not upholding it is sickening.

My question is why were there supposed to be six rounds anyway? Looking at the rankings there appears to have only been 41 people playing in the tournament. Mathematically, there should only have been 5 rounds before cutting to the top 8 anyway. With only 41 people having a sixth round will always result in a messy break for the top 8. Let's assume that for argument's sake there were 42 people at the tournament.

After 5 rounds we can expect there to be on average 1.31 people with a 5,0 record, 6.6 people with a 4,1 record and 13.2 people with a 3,2 record. Cutting to the top 8 is pretty simple as there are 7.9 people with a 5,0 or a 4,1 record. Worse case you have to look at the tie breakers to determine who gets the eighth seat.

After 6 rounds we can expect there to be on average 0.66 people with a 6,0 record, 3.9 people with a 5,1 record and 9.8 people with a 4,2 record. On average the top 4 will have records of 5,1 or better and you'll be forced to find the other 4 players from the 10 or so players who have 4,2 records.

For a tournament this size its better to cut after 5 rounds as you will always have a pretty straight forward cut off spot. On top of this there would be less need for tie breakers and seeing as the field is pretty wide open after the fourth round there would be very limited use of Intentional Draws. (Only those going into round 5 with a perfect record could be guaranteed a spot by Intentional Drawing, and they are already guaranteed that spot.)

It's only after moving from 5 rounds to 6 rounds that the issue of Intentional Drawing can even come up.

I believe they started out at 45. After drops, it was 39.

Though, I am curious if Hothie's opinions on traveling players has changed since SWM...

edit: Oh and here a few solution to get rid of draws all together, interestingly Heaver suggested one of those himself:

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.co.at/2016/04/you-cant-win-but-there-are-alternatives.html