You SHOULD be slamming Pheaver. It's up to the leaders of the community to take an actual stance on something instead of waffling around it by saying its bad but I'm gonna do it anyway.

I'm not slamming pheaver because for I don't like personally calling out people on forums and he could have been actually using the rule for it's implied intended purpose- to give those that would automatically make the cut a break before the cut. If, however, he and the other top 8 decided to ID for other reasons- to save themselves the possibility of losing and not making the cut, or they all decided together to ID (thus colluding and breaking the rules), then he should be held in just as much contempt as any of them.

The reason doesn't matter. Stand up for what you believe in.

Reasons do matter, on a personal level. I will however, shelve that discussion for later. I do believe that you and I have a similar outlook on the issue, so I would rather not continue this side conversation and focus back on the bad rule that spawned it.

I hate that I need to keep posting in here defending IDs. I would hate to see FFG cave in and change back.

They're going too. This is getting more hate and attention than the mat fiasco. They don't want to have an opportunity where a top table is being steamed on the last round and people just set up ships then shake hands.

Except that would only happen if they keep draws as a result but get rid of IDs, except instead of a handshake you'd have both players circling the board not engaging for 75 minutes. With IDs they can just get one of the match-ups that isn't in a position to, or doesn't want to, ID on the stream.

Wow, just wow. The rule was clearly installed because people were tired of starting x-1 but missing the cut because they lost in the final round. Those people constantly got passed by other players that started x-2 and as a result played weaker opponents. Allowing them to amass a better mov. Taking an ID does not ruin the integrity of the game. It rewards someone for winning early and often.

A win is a win no matter which round it happens to be. Wins in rounds 1 and 2 should be no more important than wins in rounds 7 and 8. Players should be rewarded for winning, not just winning early.

The Strength of Schedule (if that is what SoS stand for and lower is better) of the 10th ranked player was better than all of the top 8. That would indicate he played a tougher schedule than those above him in the standings. If higher is better then the 9th seed had a better SoS than all but one of the top 8. If I'm interpreting this wrong please forgive my misreading of the data.

Edited for spelling, punctuation, and changed 9th to 10th in last paragraph.

I hate that I need to keep posting in here defending IDs. I would hate to see FFG cave in and change back.

They're going too. This is getting more hate and attention than the mat fiasco. They don't want to have an opportunity where a top table is being steamed on the last round and people just set up ships then shake hands.

Except that would only happen if they keep draws as a result but get rid of IDs, except instead of a handshake you'd have both players circling the board not engaging for 75 minutes. With IDs they can just get one of the match-ups that isn't in a position to, or doesn't want to, ID on the stream.

That type of draw practically never happens. In the 2 and a half years I've be been playing I have only ever seen 2 natural draws. One was a double KO, the other was this year in store championships, between two very strong players that out-cautiously played each other.

As has been said before, if you go to a tournament, and you want to win, you'd be stupid not to take an ID if it meant you'd make the cut. The rule might be rubbish, unfun, a NPE etc. but so long as it exists, and is legal to do so, there's no point shooting yourself in the foot by not taking one when the opportunity arises.

By all means, you personally may choose to play the game instead out of some ethical obligation, but judging people who take an ID as somehow morally beneath you (for doing literally nothing wrong) is nothing short of obnoxious.

I just find the hypocrisy funny. If this was people rules lawerying in the final match, or flying people off the board, or not letting actions because a token wasn't there, not letting people use kalus because they didn't say it right at the start of the round, then people would be absolutely crusicfiyng them because there waac jerks and what happened to fly casual and why are they such bad sports.

Can you not see how those two things are different?

how are they different? They are all completely legal things that we can do?

One of them is 100% explicitly stated to be legal by FFG. It says you are allowed to take an ID if both players agree. Whereas rules lawyering things like actions, kallus is more of a combination of various rules. It's not explicitly written down as something that it is 100% ok to do.

Do I like the ID ruling? No. Am I going to try and shame anyone who disagrees with me as morally objectionable or a 'bad sport?' No.

As has been said before, if you go to a tournament, and you want to win, you'd be stupid not to take an ID if it meant you'd make the cut. The rule might be rubbish, unfun, a NPE etc. but so long as it exists, and is legal to do so, there's no point shooting yourself in the foot by not taking one when the opportunity arises.

By all means, you personally may choose to play the game instead out of some ethical obligation, but judging people who take an ID as somehow morally beneath you (for doing literally nothing wrong) is nothing short of obnoxious.

I just find the hypocrisy funny. If this was people rules lawerying in the final match, or flying people off the board, or not letting actions because a token wasn't there, not letting people use kalus because they didn't say it right at the start of the round, then people would be absolutely crusicfiyng them because there waac jerks and what happened to fly casual and why are they such bad sports.

Can you not see how those two things are different?

how are they different? They are all completely legal things that we can do?

One of them is 100% explicitly stated to be legal by FFG. It says you are allowed to take an ID if both players agree. Whereas rules lawyering things like actions, kallus is more of a combination of various rules. It's not explicitly written down as something that it is 100% ok to do.

Do I like the ID ruling? No. Am I going to try and shame anyone who disagrees with me as morally objectionable or a 'bad sport?' No.

I hate that I need to keep posting in here defending IDs. I would hate to see FFG cave in and change back.

But intentional draws in this game add no value to the tournament experience for X-wing. They don't make the top cut more "pure" (although I don't think they make it any worse either necessarily), they don't solve a problem (I don't recall any instances where an artificial draw was ever performed in a tournament between two players in X-wing to make the cut), and they promote playing less X-wing, which seems totally contrary to what a tournament should promote.

I also didn't see any problem with IDs until this event, so I understand if you think they are fine. But think about what value they add to the game. They give top players a rest? This is contrary to what taking an ID should do. Players should be pushed to not take IDs. Instead they are given a reward for taking them.

In my opinion, having intentional draws is going sideways as to how to determine the top cut, where going sideways gets less X-wing played and more players upset by this X-wing not being played.

I think dropping draws altogether may be the answer, considering they are an anomaly, a 1/1000 game occurrence. But after pondering on what could go wrong with this, I would be worried that it would promote fortressing builds if the tiebreaker could be controlled by the player, such as through initiative. But, seeing as fortressing is a non-existent play style currently, and I'm pretty sure now that ordnance is up to par and would likely wreck a fortress build, it likely wouldn't be an issue if draws were eliminated altogether.

So much salt and tears! I love it!

BTW id's existed before. At one store I matched up against a guy I know quite well and we were both undefeated in a 40 people tournament in the last round o swiss we just flew for an hour and did not take shots. Judge can't do anything about it as we do not break any rules. We both wanted to draw so none of us wanted to engage. But we still had to play it out. So I prefer to take an id rather than bump for 1 hour. Before the rule that you have to play was clunky and essentialy dead. This is much better.

As has been said before, if you go to a tournament, and you want to win, you'd be stupid not to take an ID if it meant you'd make the cut. The rule might be rubbish, unfun, a NPE etc. but so long as it exists, and is legal to do so, there's no point shooting yourself in the foot by not taking one when the opportunity arises.

By all means, you personally may choose to play the game instead out of some ethical obligation, but judging people who take an ID as somehow morally beneath you (for doing literally nothing wrong) is nothing short of obnoxious.

I just find the hypocrisy funny. If this was people rules lawerying in the final match, or flying people off the board, or not letting actions because a token wasn't there, not letting people use kalus because they didn't say it right at the start of the round, then people would be absolutely crusicfiyng them because there waac jerks and what happened to fly casual and why are they such bad sports.

Can you not see how those two things are different?

how are they different? They are all completely legal things that we can do?

One of them is 100% explicitly stated to be legal by FFG. It says you are allowed to take an ID if both players agree. Whereas rules lawyering things like actions, kallus is more of a combination of various rules. It's not explicitly written down as something that it is 100% ok to do.

Do I like the ID ruling? No. Am I going to try and shame anyone who disagrees with me as morally objectionable or a 'bad sport?' No.

I'm 100% allowed to not let my opponent kallus. It is a missed opportunity and by the rules I'm under no obligation to allow him to do it. Same thing with letting my opponent recloak after he forgets or not letting him perform an action after the time has passed.

The point is that one of them is an 'addition' to the rules, and one of them is a strict enforcing of rules already there. This isn't FFG weighing in on a contentious issue (i.e, saying being a rules lawyer is ok), this is FFG creating a whole new rule.

Ultimately, even if someone was a rules lawyer, so long as they weren't being one in a dickish way, I'd have no problem with that either.

Here's the answer: WIN all your games and you don't have to worry about it. Sounds like a lot of Boohooing from the players that were almost there. NEWS FLASH: Not everyone gets a trophy.

Another point: You can ID into a Top Cut, but you can't ID after that.

it'd be one thing if the players lost and we're boohooing about not making the cut but players who could have made it because they won didn't make it because the the other 4 tables said nah we aren't gonna have any lisers here and let anyone jump into the top 8

Do you even hear yourself? Those people lost twice before the final round. They're boohooing about missing the cut because people that started better wouldn't let them pass.

Just because they started better doesn't mean that they were actually better. The top players and podcasts often refer to competitive tournaments as marathons. If I'm leading in a marathon at mile 21, I don't get to declare that no one can pass me while I take a break because I've already established I'm the best marathon runner. People only compare results after the completion of the entire race; here that would be ALL of Swiss.

Another example, this is like a class in school. If I am at the top of the class right before the final exam, I can't declare that I get the best grade and simply not show up for the exam. I might miss the exam, but if somebody behind me out works me, they may end up with a better grade.

Apples and Oranges

More often then not a player that is 4-1 has outperformed a person at 3-2

Swiss is not a marathon, it's many separate rounds. A marathon is one continuous action.

Remember also that this is not resulting in a person winning a whole tournament. It just allows them to make a cut.

I hate that I need to keep posting in here defending IDs. I would hate to see FFG cave in and change back.

They're going too. This is getting more hate and attention than the mat fiasco. They don't want to have an opportunity where a top table is being steamed on the last round and people just set up ships then shake hands.

I'm sure they would select a match to watch that had actual implications.

I hate that I need to keep posting in here defending IDs. I would hate to see FFG cave in and change back.

They're going too. This is getting more hate and attention than the mat fiasco. They don't want to have an opportunity where a top table is being steamed on the last round and people just set up ships then shake hands.

I'm sure they would select a match to watch that had actual implications.

And if there were none? Just like the incident that sparked this thread?

Here's what I find rather hilarious. When we have the topics about sportsmanship, flying casual, letting people get take backs, and etc... people who follow the rules or use the rules to there advantage to fly people off the board, not allow missed opportunities, and the other controversies we rehash get called bad sports and worse. The top 8 did the very same thing and there's a ton of people protecting them because it's in the rules. Well again so is flying people off the board, so is telling them nope you forgot your action, so is telling them you can shoot with those previous ships since when you measured you activated them and then moved on. Total hypocrisy at its finest that I suspect is because Paul was one who did it and he could never do any wrong... it would suck being at table 5 or 6 and look over to see top 8 drawing and then realizing that now all you're doing is playing for acrylic bomb tokens. It's a BS rule but it's definitely on the players for using it. Any one of them could have declined the offer and played it out and took the risk. But they chose to do it so honestly ant criticism there way is deserved. It'd be just like if someone at the final table at world's flew someone off the board or didn't let them take an action. They'd be well within the rules and there right to do it but they'd be absolutely crucified by a lot of the community. Just wait until it starts happening on the twitch streams. People set up there ships and then shake hands and pack them up. That'll be good for the game...

Again, I would like to point out that the top three didn't benefit from this. They could have lost their R6 games and still made it to the cut.

So...they colluded to manipulate the scores so there buddies would make it through?

So much salt and tears! I love it!

BTW id's existed before. At one store I matched up against a guy I know quite well and we were both undefeated in a 40 people tournament in the last round o swiss we just flew for an hour and did not take shots. Judge can't do anything about it as we do not break any rules. We both wanted to draw so none of us wanted to engage. But we still had to play it out. So I prefer to take an id rather than bump for 1 hour. Before the rule that you have to play was clunky and essentialy dead. This is much better.

Actually I'm pretty sure this could have easily been interpreted as collusion and the TO could have had both of you cut from the tournament based on FFGs unsportsmanlike conduct ruling. I'm not saying he necessarily should have, but I'm noting that it very easily could have been seen that way.

Again, we get rid of the draw altogether, we don't even have scenarios like this occur, and we don't need an ID.

I hate that I need to keep posting in here defending IDs. I would hate to see FFG cave in and change back.

They're going too. This is getting more hate and attention than the mat fiasco. They don't want to have an opportunity where a top table is being steamed on the last round and people just set up ships then shake hands.

I'm sure they would select a match to watch that had actual implications.

And if there were none? Just like the incident that sparked this thread?

The odds of that happening constantly are pretty out there. I played hundreds of high level magic tournaments and don't ever remember the top eight being able to draw. Top six, but not top eight.

I hate that I need to keep posting in here defending IDs. I would hate to see FFG cave in and change back.

They're going too. This is getting more hate and attention than the mat fiasco. They don't want to have an opportunity where a top table is being steamed on the last round and people just set up ships then shake hands.

Except that would only happen if they keep draws as a result but get rid of IDs, except instead of a handshake you'd have both players circling the board not engaging for 75 minutes. With IDs they can just get one of the match-ups that isn't in a position to, or doesn't want to, ID on the stream.

That type of draw practically never happens. In the 2 and a half years I've be been playing I have only ever seen 2 natural draws. One was a double KO, the other was this year in store championships, between two very strong players that out-cautiously played each other.

Apparently, the Spanish National winner lost his bye because of this. So, there were consequences.

So much salt and tears! I love it!

BTW id's existed before. At one store I matched up against a guy I know quite well and we were both undefeated in a 40 people tournament in the last round o swiss we just flew for an hour and did not take shots. Judge can't do anything about it as we do not break any rules. We both wanted to draw so none of us wanted to engage. But we still had to play it out. So I prefer to take an id rather than bump for 1 hour. Before the rule that you have to play was clunky and essentialy dead. This is much better.

Actually I'm pretty sure this could have easily been interpreted as collusion and the TO could have had both of you cut from the tournament based on FFGs unsportsmanlike conduct ruling. I'm not saying he necessarily should have, but I'm noting that it very easily could have been seen that way.

Again, we get rid of the draw altogether, we don't even have scenarios like this occur, and we don't need an ID.

See my post above.

I think this is a disgrace and I'm not even a tournament player, the rule needs changing asap and the top 8 need to be banned for a year to set an example.

The fact they were mocking people is an utter disgrace and not how this game should be seen.

Here's the answer: WIN all your games and you don't have to worry about it. Sounds like a lot of Boohooing from the players that were almost there. NEWS FLASH: Not everyone gets a trophy.

Another point: You can ID into a Top Cut, but you can't ID after that.

it'd be one thing if the players lost and we're boohooing about not making the cut but players who could have made it because they won didn't make it because the the other 4 tables said nah we aren't gonna have any lisers here and let anyone jump into the top 8

Do you even hear yourself? Those people lost twice before the final round. They're boohooing about missing the cut because people that started better wouldn't let them pass.

Just because they started better doesn't mean that they were actually better. The top players and podcasts often refer to competitive tournaments as marathons. If I'm leading in a marathon at mile 21, I don't get to declare that no one can pass me while I take a break because I've already established I'm the best marathon runner. People only compare results after the completion of the entire race; here that would be ALL of Swiss.

Another example, this is like a class in school. If I am at the top of the class right before the final exam, I can't declare that I get the best grade and simply not show up for the exam. I might miss the exam, but if somebody behind me out works me, they may end up with a better grade.

Apples and Oranges

More often then not a player that is 4-1 has outperformed a person at 3-2

Swiss is not a marathon, it's many separate rounds. A marathon is one continuous action.

Remember also that this is not resulting in a person winning a whole tournament. It just allows them to make a cut.

At the Hoth open, the player who won the tournament was the 8th seed. If the top table at that event had chosen to draw, he would not have made the cut.

So actually, it can determine who wins the whole tournament. If the IDs don't happen at Roanoke, there is possibly 4 new players in the Top 8. I'm gonna go ahead and say that, yes, it is a pretty heavy determinant of who wins the tournament.

And "more often than not" is not a good enough argument to keep intentional draws. More often than not, I'm perfectly healthy and can go to work. Because of this, I should always be required to go to work based on that line of thinking, even if I was on my death bed. Because, you know, more often than not I am able to go to work.

We understand you're a magic player and it works there. Did you read this blog post that has some well known players and analysts from the Magic community talk about how an ID is a necessary evil, and if it could be avoided (which it can't because draws are common and impossible to eliminate), it should be? You should check it out and see how IDs in Magic don't align with X-wing.

I honestly think everyone needs to read this if you are still comparing IDs in X-wing to IDs in Magic.

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/you-cant-win-but-there-are-alternatives.html

I think this is a disgrace and I'm not even a tournament player, the rule needs changing asap and the top 8 need to be banned for a year to set an example.

The fact they were mocking people is an utter disgrace and not how this game should be seen.

Banning people that followed the rules is ridiculous.

I think this is a disgrace and I'm not even a tournament player, the rule needs changing asap and the top 8 need to be banned for a year to set an example.

The fact they were mocking people is an utter disgrace and not how this game should be seen.

Banning people that followed the rules is ridiculous.

So is 8 people decided the tournament ends early.

So much for a sense of fair play. Until the rule is changed, there's really only two reasons to play a tournament game with great players:

1. You are a top player who can make top 8 because of talent and skill.

2. You are just there for the promos and maybe to learn a few things from the top players.

I'm really disappointed to learn that FFG is encouraging this sort of unsportsmanlike conduct through not only its rules, but through its attitude when challenged by the rules. I'm even more disappointed to learn that the top players at a major event would behave so poorly. Guys, you manipulated the rules to your advantage. Be man enough to say so. "Blame the rules" is about as arrogant as it gets. It's like saying, "I'm a jerk but it's not my fault." Take some responsibility for your actions. I am of the legal age to buy alcohol but it's still my choice whether or not to do so, and how I behave after drinking is my responsibility as well. It's not much of a defense if I behave foolishly to say after I sober up, "well the government says it's legal for me to drink."

I think this is a disgrace and I'm not even a tournament player, the rule needs changing asap and the top 8 need to be banned for a year to set an example.

The fact they were mocking people is an utter disgrace and not how this game should be seen.

Banning people that followed the rules is ridiculous.

Clearly, they did not "follow the rules." They manipulated them for their own advantage. Reading through the different discussions, it looks like there is a rule regarding "unsportsmanlike conduct" and this seems to fit based on the intent of what happened. This means the TO probably didn't do his due dilligence to protect the integrity of the event. It also probably means FFG should send a message to the players given their status in the community that such behavior won't be tolerated by banning them from Nationals play.

I can understand why several in the community are upset by this rule and the way it was used in the tournament.

It shows, pretty clearly, that the idea of "Fly Casual" and all that people believe it stands for isn't all that important to some of the best X-Wing competitors. These players, who have in the past followed that philosophy, even promoted it. Where is that fun before competition spirit now? Surely if they were "Flying Casual" they would play out their final match instead of altering the final swiss standings without even playing.

While I blame FFG for adding in the contradictory rule, I cannot help but point out how little Fly Casual actually matters to the top players of the game. I've said before on many occasions I don't believe in Fly Casual and let me tell you why. It was a jab at players who want to think and play competitively and it was also an attempt for players to distance themselves from them by joining a club and believing in a philosophy. Of course, this was all originally to sell some t-shirts though, so don't forget that Hothie was just trying to get you to buy stuff from his friend. If you don't believe me, here's the original post, since some of you have probably never even read it.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/90985-the-fly-casual-campaign-please-read/

If anything, the one thing that Fly Casual was actually meant to be about (other than alienating certain players from the "cool kids" club) was having and promoting fun. That's it. Everything else has just been added on by other people over the years.

Fly Casual is pointless and this situation right here is one of the many reasons it shouldn't be a thing. People would be less up in arms about this if they didn't hold people like Paul Heaver to high standards of conduct. Sure, he and the others in top 8 were playing according to the current tournament rules but people are upset because this goes against what they believe Fly Casual is.

Paul Heaver and others exploited a rule that is legal in the tournament setting as of right now. People are only upset because they expect him to always behave according to their interpretation of a vague philosophy that was created to sell t-shirts.

So the first round of a region does not matter because 12-16 store championship byes will be used and the last round doesn't matter because top x will decide to draw.

Is there any reason to attend a regional if you don't have a SC bye?