ECHOOO

Okay. Is it worth learning to play Echo well nowadays? With the crazy movement, but cloak nerf?

got the final cross table for Chicago Regionals from Ron (the TD)! I'm fixing ListJuggler now.

data looks good now, if anyone spots any issues they can fix it themselves ;-)

ECHOOO

Okay. Is it worth learning to play Echo well nowadays? With the crazy movement, but cloak nerf?

Clearly. I mean, she is still a lot more difficult to predict than Whisper.

I played Dustin Poskochill's list in the top 16 at regionals and I'm 99.9% sure his list was:

Howl runner w/ Crackshot, 2x Omega Squadron w/ Crackshot, 3x Black Squadron w/ Crackshot

I'm a big BIG fan of Echo. That PS8 is viable now is amazing, and TBH I'm contemplating a double Phantom list.

Echo's fine at PS 6. There are still plenty of 9's hanging around, so she's just as good at 6 as she is at 8.

Not sure if it was mentioned anywhere and I missed it but looks like there were 86 players in Independence with 18 byes used.

Not sure if it was mentioned anywhere and I missed it but looks like there were 86 players in Independence with 18 byes used.

Yeah we had a ton of byes being the first regional in our area.

Echo's fine at PS 6. There are still plenty of 9's hanging around, so she's just as good at 6 as she is at 8.

Nah, not even remotely. At 8 there's Inquisitor, Carnor, Omega Leader... Dash at 7. You can't operate at 6, you need VI and then a hearty init bid to clear the competing 8s.

Echo's fine at PS 6. There are still plenty of 9's hanging around, so she's just as good at 6 as she is at 8.

Nah, not even remotely. At 8 there's Inquisitor, Carnor, Omega Leader... Dash at 7. You can't operate at 6, you need VI and then a hearty init bid to clear the competing 8s.

My personal results over the last year (while I've played Echo without VI) disagree with your definitive statement. I've beaten all of the aces above PS 6 with Lone Wolf Echo, and I've won tournaments with her. The issue comes down to how you fly. If you fly Echo the same way you fly Whisper (jousting and relying on shooting first), then sure, you probably want VI, but you still won't win, because you will eventually face Vader, Soontir, Whisper, etc. who just won't let you shoot first.

Echo needs to make maximum use of her ability to be successful, and if you do this, you won't need to shoot first, because you won't get shot if you don't want to. Also, Kallus and SJ help a lot for when you do need to take fire.

Echo's fine at PS 6. There are still plenty of 9's hanging around, so she's just as good at 6 as she is at 8.

Nah, not even remotely. At 8 there's Inquisitor, Carnor, Omega Leader... Dash at 7. You can't operate at 6, you need VI and then a hearty init bid to clear the competing 8s.

My personal results over the last year (while I've played Echo without VI) disagree with your definitive statement. I've beaten all of the aces above PS 6 with Lone Wolf Echo, and I've won tournaments with her. The issue comes down to how you fly. If you fly Echo the same way you fly Whisper (jousting and relying on shooting first), then sure, you probably want VI, but you still won't win, because you will eventually face Vader, Soontir, Whisper, etc. who just won't let you shoot first.

Echo needs to make maximum use of her ability to be successful, and if you do this, you won't need to shoot first, because you won't get shot if you don't want to. Also, Kallus and SJ help a lot for when you do need to take fire.

I think, with respect, that the reasons and ways to play Echo in Wave 8 are not the reasons/ways from the past year.

PS8 has become much more viable and now you CAN play Echo (to a large extent) like you would previously play Whisper, as the number of PS9+ pilots in the meta is hugely less than it was two months ago. In some matchups you have to be more circumspect as they are bringing the high PS, but in many games now Echo at PS8 is just Whisper+.

Echo's fine at PS 6. There are still plenty of 9's hanging around, so she's just as good at 6 as she is at 8.

Nah, not even remotely. At 8 there's Inquisitor, Carnor, Omega Leader... Dash at 7. You can't operate at 6, you need VI and then a hearty init bid to clear the competing 8s.

My personal results over the last year (while I've played Echo without VI) disagree with your definitive statement. I've beaten all of the aces above PS 6 with Lone Wolf Echo, and I've won tournaments with her. The issue comes down to how you fly. If you fly Echo the same way you fly Whisper (jousting and relying on shooting first), then sure, you probably want VI, but you still won't win, because you will eventually face Vader, Soontir, Whisper, etc. who just won't let you shoot first.

Echo needs to make maximum use of her ability to be successful, and if you do this, you won't need to shoot first, because you won't get shot if you don't want to. Also, Kallus and SJ help a lot for when you do need to take fire.

I think, with respect, that the reasons and ways to play Echo in Wave 8 are not the reasons/ways from the past year.

PS8 has become much more viable and now you CAN play Echo (to a large extent) like you would previously play Whisper, as the number of PS9+ pilots in the meta is hugely less than it was two months ago. In some matchups you have to be more circumspect as they are bringing the high PS, but in many games now Echo at PS8 is just Whisper+.

My results over the past year include a wave 8 SC win, but it sounds like we may have to agree to disagree here.

I've sort of made it my mission to preach the ways of non VI Phantoms, so when you said Echo isn't remotely as good at 6 as at 8, and that you "can't operate at 6", I felt the need to give some evidence. As with everything else in this game, it truly comes down to play style, and developing a plan before the game starts, and practicing the hell out of your squad.

If not Agent Kallus, Intelligence Agent is also a good choice on "Echo". Helps you plan de-cloaks against higher-PS enemies. Stygium Particle Acclerator is also a thing: if you won't be able to re-Cloak before getting shot, you can at least have an Evade token. That plus Lone Wolf and Sensor Jammer makes her surprisingly sturdy for a 4-health ship with 2 Agility much of the time. The only sad thing is not being able to do her de-cloaking shenanigans every round.

I've never really liked "Whisper". Yeah, she can get to PS9 and gets a defensive Focus, but I find she spends too much time out of combat anyway only being able to turn 90 degrees at a time. "Echo" has a much wider range of movement/angle change. Obviously this is a bit of personal preference that comes down to play style, but I much prefer unpredictable movement to simply bidding for the highest PS (which isn't even the highest any more).

If not Agent Kallus, Intelligence Agent is also a good choice on "Echo". Helps you plan de-cloaks against higher-PS enemies. Stygium Particle Acclerator is also a thing: if you won't be able to re-Cloak before getting shot, you can at least have an Evade token. That plus Lone Wolf and Sensor Jammer makes her surprisingly sturdy for a 4-health ship with 2 Agility much of the time. The only sad thing is not being able to do her de-cloaking shenanigans every round.

I've never really liked "Whisper". Yeah, she can get to PS9 and gets a defensive Focus, but I find she spends too much time out of combat anyway only being able to turn 90 degrees at a time. "Echo" has a much wider range of movement/angle change. Obviously this is a bit of personal preference that comes down to play style, but I much prefer unpredictable movement to simply bidding for the highest PS (which isn't even the highest any more).

There was a 3x Phantom list that made Top 8 somewhere. I was aroused.

On Echo I like the logic of bringing Recon Specialist to proxy Whisper's 'focus on attack' ability. I think that's more attractive than Kallus, but it's an extra point.

My results over the past year include a wave 8 SC win, but it sounds like we may have to agree to disagree here.

I've sort of made it my mission to preach the ways of non VI Phantoms, so when you said Echo isn't remotely as good at 6 as at 8, and that you "can't operate at 6", I felt the need to give some evidence. As with everything else in this game, it truly comes down to play style, and developing a plan before the game starts, and practicing the hell out of your squad.

Agreed. But saying that 6 is as good as 8 definitely isn't true in this meta. An AWFUL lot of threat is landing between those two spots.

My results over the past year include a wave 8 SC win, but it sounds like we may have to agree to disagree here.

I've sort of made it my mission to preach the ways of non VI Phantoms, so when you said Echo isn't remotely as good at 6 as at 8, and that you "can't operate at 6", I felt the need to give some evidence. As with everything else in this game, it truly comes down to play style, and developing a plan before the game starts, and practicing the hell out of your squad.

Agreed. But saying that 6 is as good as 8 definitely isn't true in this meta. An AWFUL lot of threat is landing between those two spots.

Echo being PS 8 in the KC regional was a huge benefit for him. My Tel at PS7 was at a huge disadvantage in the end game against him. He got to cloak after shooting before I could fire back and got to position after I had moved. I know not a lot of people fly Tel but being 8 vs 6 is big. Especially against Inquisitors that are everywhere.

Again, agree to disagree. I feel that the benefit I get from Lone Wolf more than makes up for the lower PS. I can also use Echo to block those PS 7/8 threats like a boss in order to set up the rest of my squad to take them out.

Echo being PS 8 in the KC regional was a huge benefit for him. My Tel at PS7 was at a huge disadvantage in the end game against him. He got to cloak after shooting before I could fire back and got to position after I had moved. I know not a lot of people fly Tel but being 8 vs 6 is big. Especially against Inquisitors that are everywhere.

They don't, but a lot DO fly Dash...

Echo being PS 8 in the KC regional was a huge benefit for him. My Tel at PS7 was at a huge disadvantage in the end game against him. He got to cloak after shooting before I could fire back and got to position after I had moved. I know not a lot of people fly Tel but being 8 vs 6 is big. Especially against Inquisitors that are everywhere.

But Echo still pulled out the victory after losing VI to Boba Fett. There were some lucky rolls to help, but it's possible. I also think the Echo player made an interesting choice to continue fighting at range 1 after losing VI. Should have spent a couple turns separating, then turn to fight at range 3, where she has the advantage. Then zoom past, staying cloaked, re-engage at range three, and so on.

Echo being PS 8 in the KC regional was a huge benefit for him. My Tel at PS7 was at a huge disadvantage in the end game against him. He got to cloak after shooting before I could fire back and got to position after I had moved. I know not a lot of people fly Tel but being 8 vs 6 is big. Especially against Inquisitors that are everywhere.

But Echo still pulled out the victory after losing VI to Boba Fett. There were some lucky rolls to help, but it's possible. I also think the Echo player made an interesting choice to continue fighting at range 1 after losing VI. Should have spent a couple turns separating, then turn to fight at range 3, where she has the advantage. Then zoom past, staying cloaked, re-engage at range three, and so on.

Being unable to land 3/3 reds with focus TL did me in. But I think 3 out of 4 games like that Echo loses.

The way it was flown, yes you should have won. Those dice were nasty!

I tried a PTL version of Echo using the free Evade to PTL for a second action, then clearing with a green and getting a 3rd action. What I learned was that Echo at PS 6 or PS 8 can be an awesome ship but she takes lots of flying skill and tons of practice to perfect. Unfortunately I had neither and so by experiment never went very far. I do know that no ship in the game has more unpredictable movement than Echo. Which includes flying "backwards". The approach wit VI is clear and plays just like Whisper. The approach with PS 6 is totally different and I would think uses SJ and SPA (as opposed to ACD) and just makes use of superior flying and the myriad options given by the decloak/dial combo.

I am curious to know what the math says about 4 green dice with focus vs two green dice with focus, evade and Lone Wolf?

Echo being PS 8 in the KC regional was a huge benefit for him. My Tel at PS7 was at a huge disadvantage in the end game against him. He got to cloak after shooting before I could fire back and got to position after I had moved. I know not a lot of people fly Tel but being 8 vs 6 is big. Especially against Inquisitors that are everywhere.

But Echo still pulled out the victory after losing VI to Boba Fett. There were some lucky rolls to help, but it's possible. I also think the Echo player made an interesting choice to continue fighting at range 1 after losing VI. Should have spent a couple turns separating, then turn to fight at range 3, where she has the advantage. Then zoom past, staying cloaked, re-engage at range three, and so on.

Being unable to land 3/3 reds with focus TL did me in. But I think 3 out of 4 games like that Echo loses.

I tried a PTL version of Echo using the free Evade to PTL for a second action, then clearing with a green and getting a 3rd action. What I learned was that Echo at PS 6 or PS 8 can be an awesome ship but she takes lots of flying skill and tons of practice to perfect. Unfortunately I had neither and so by experiment never went very far. I do know that no ship in the game has more unpredictable movement than Echo. Which includes flying "backwards". The approach wit VI is clear and plays just like Whisper. The approach with PS 6 is totally different and I would think uses SJ and SPA (as opposed to ACD) and just makes use of superior flying and the myriad options given by the decloak/dial combo.

I am curious to know what the math says about 4 green dice with focus vs two green dice with focus, evade and Lone Wolf?

I once ran a Push the Limit, Adv Sensors, Engine Upgrade version that was crazy (can't remember crew). Sadly higher PS turrets cared little for Echo's tricks. But what I found is I took frequently wasn't able to get shots as I was too focused on getting out of arcs.