I'm not going to contest that Demolisher is an extremely good (and convtroversial!) title, but I think you're selling other Gladiators short. Provided your list supports them well (as you mentioned, activation advantage is important) they can do some heavy lifting. I don't think they're nearly as dependent on titles as, say, MC80s or Nebulon-Bs are.

Another part where you and I have a difference in opinion... I at least see Naked Nebulon-Bs as part of a Massed Neb Gunline list...

I never see Gladiators without Titles, and never more than 2 in a list (Consequently, Demolisher and Insidious) - which tends to lend to me believing that Gladiators just don't cut it without a Title in comparison...

In Armada, it seems to me that every ship has a specific role and usually it's not a good idea to spam the same ship over and over again until points come to an end. That's why I don't really like much corvette swarms, raider swarms, not even assault frigates spam. I'm not saying they suck, it's just that I like my ships to be able to cover a broader spectrum of roles on the battlefield, and having 3-7 of the same ships doesn't allow for much options.

With this in mind, I think that titles do play a very big part in determining the ship's use, so I feel this whole discussion about good titles on not so good ships is stretching the analysis a bit too much: for much that I love Mc 30, for example, I always bring one of the 2 titles and I consider them part of the ship.

Another part where you and I have a difference in opinion... I at least see Naked Nebulon-Bs as part of a Massed Neb Gunline list...

I actually should have noted that in my response, my bad. You do on occasion see untitled Nebulon-Bs (at least online) as part of a Nebulon-B-only fleet. The problem there, I think, is the Nebulon is the only Rebel ship with its attack profile (likes facing forward and jousting towards enemies) so if you're building with enough Nebulons, more Nebulons are the obvious thing to keep adding in.

I never see Gladiators without Titles, and never more than 2 in a list (Consequently, Demolisher and Insidious) - which tends to lend to me believing that Gladiators just don't cut it without a Title in comparison...

See, I used to take the Insidious with some regularity, but I just couldn't get it to work consistently enough. I realize it's only 3 points, but when it would only trigger about every 1 in 3 games at best it just rarely felt worthwhile to me. I grant that the first Gladiator should always be Demolisher, but Gladiators past that I usually include untitled.

And if you're including untitled Gladiators, more power to you Its just once again, highlighting that Local Metas are a very powerful thing, and they readily influence our thoughts on what is good or not... I don't remember the last time I saw an Untitled Gladiator around here, and I think that is because it was back in Wave 1...

I'm much more likely to see an Untitled (and Unupgraded) Victory than a Glad with no Title but some Upgrades for the same amount of Points...

CR90 corvettes actually have forward arcs too. Its just nobody seems to have noticed... MC30's and MC80's have such narrow front arcs that they arent far of either.

So I suggest this:

The Assault Frigate is actually the odd one out for the Rebels.

CR90 corvettes actually have forward arcs too. Its just nobody seems to have noticed... MC30's and MC80's have such narrow front arcs that they arent far of either.

So I suggest this:

The Assault Frigate is actually the odd one out for the Rebels.

I don't think it's that people haven't noticed the CR90's stronger front arc. It's more that the way it's set up (it's a good sized front arc for a small ship), along with the hard turning final step on the dial, means that CR90's are still best at swirling in order to arc dodge, while still being able to turn that last notch to get the wide front arc, or even double arcs. The Neb wants to point right at the enemy, and it's the only rebel ship that does.

And if you're including untitled Gladiators, more power to you Its just once again, highlighting that Local Metas are a very powerful thing, and they readily influence our thoughts on what is good or not... I don't remember the last time I saw an Untitled Gladiator around here, and I think that is because it was back in Wave 1...

I'm much more likely to see an Untitled (and Unupgraded) Victory than a Glad with no Title but some Upgrades for the same amount of Points...

Yeah I should've specified I also don't tend to see Insidious used that much by others but running multiple Gladiators isn't something I see too frequently so it's entirely possible it's meta-based. I'm largely (but not entirely!) my own meta when it comes to running quantities of Gladiators, haha.

CR90 corvettes actually have forward arcs too. Its just nobody seems to have noticed... MC30's and MC80's have such narrow front arcs that they arent far of either.

So I suggest this:

The Assault Frigate is actually the odd one out for the Rebels.

I don't think it's that people haven't noticed the CR90's stronger front arc. It's more that the way it's set up (it's a good sized front arc for a small ship), along with the hard turning final step on the dial, means that CR90's are still best at swirling in order to arc dodge, while still being able to turn that last notch to get the wide front arc, or even double arcs. The Neb wants to point right at the enemy, and it's the only rebel ship that does.

Xindell hit it on the nose. CR90s also prefer to fire out of their front arcs but they don't like jousting (heading straight towards their targets) and so they usually leave the Nebulon-Bs behind because they aren't designed to handle serious enemy attention as part of a formation, they're designed to be skirmishers and opportunists. If you want to provide a unified battle line for your Nebulon-Bs, what they want is more Nebulon-Bs. At least for right now, anyways.

I kind of have to disagree, but more it is flip the equation. I almost always go for the extra range. I find the VSD I to be about the biggest waist of points in the game, almost never use gladiators at all (with or with out titles). My VSD II still sees the table a lot. I find black dice to be almost useless, mostly as the rebels are more mobile (and part of that is my play style), I feel the red dice is 1000 X better then the black. I do not know how I would do in other areas, but in mine I win more than I lose by a fair margin, so it may just be area depending.

I kind of have to disagree, but more it is flip the equation. I almost always go for the extra range. I find the VSD I to be about the biggest waist of points in the game, almost never use gladiators at all (with or with out titles). My VSD II still sees the table a lot. I find black dice to be almost useless, mostly as the rebels are more mobile (and part of that is my play style), I feel the red dice is 1000 X better then the black. I do not know how I would do in other areas, but in mine I win more than I lose by a fair margin, so it may just be area depending.

VSD I is a waste if you're actually expecting to get black shots off with it. Moreso if you actually arm it with ordnance upgrades. VSD I is cheap pocket carrier right now (there might be some use for it as a 2nd line sweeper who likes deterring fast ships from getting into your booty, but I'm not sure...I'll have to test that. 73 points (minimum), might be too much to pay for a ship who's only roll is backfield deterrence. Glad or Raider might serve the roll, and is a more economic option.)

In order to properly use black dice, you want high activation counts and faster ships. This pretty much excludes the VSD 1. MC30's, Glads and to a lesser extent, Raiders, can be armed with orndance upgrades and gobble other ships up because they have both of those attributes (activation count and speed). I'm currently more inclined to think that, in order to use raiders properly offensively (which is to say, aside from an objective token camper), or an out-of-the-way pocket flag-ship for your Admiral that you don't want being engaged, you need lots of speedy ships. (read: Clontroper's list)

Demolisher is the major redemption of the gladiator - without demo you are stuck with only ever being able to shoot someone who ended their turn in your short range firing arc (or if you have activation advantage one way or the other)

I'm not going to contest that Demolisher is an extremely good (and convtroversial!) title, but I think you're selling other Gladiators short. Provided your list supports them well (as you mentioned, activation advantage is important) they can do some heavy lifting. I don't think they're nearly as dependent on titles as, say, MC80s or Nebulon-Bs are.

Im going to give Raider IIs a try and follow similar logic as my ISD 2 - ie that extra bit of range lets me fly into position to threaten but not over commit. Its pretty easy for most ships to escape a black dice front arc. Blue dice just have that slightly bigger area of influence. That's the theory anyway!

Raider-IIs (my preference again being with SW7s) are probably the best way to dip your toes into learning to use Raiders well. They're Raiders with training wheels, basically - not nearly so dangerous to the rider/pilot but also not really as capable of doing anything exemplary.

Agree with this, without activation advantage last first/ Glads are just average/good, with last first, Glads are very good. Last first Demo is probably ( in my opinion) the best single ship in the game, not saying a well played fleet can't bet it, it's just very very good.

As (at least since wave 2 came out) an exclusive Imperial player I've felt like the options for the kinds of builds I like are limited. If it were my choice I'd love some combination of ISDs and VSDs to be worthwhile, since I'm fine sacrificing mobility for heavy firepower and survivability. But I feel the Empire loses out in this regard compared to the Rebels, which can do this archetype better and much cheaper than the Empire in spite of having smaller dice pools naturally and smaller ships.

I feel like the Empire has really two good archetypes right now, and anything else feels suboptimal to some degree:

Blue/black assault ships: With Screed to guarantee the crits, very cheap APT platforms, and the best black dice attack title on their side (on a ship that isn't bad either), Empire is going to see a lot more success with their crit delivery platforms that ignore shields instead of trying to beat down enemy MC80s with an ISD. Ozzel can help these lists as well with speed control. Clon's list and the Demolisher are talked about/feared more than tripple ISDs and Avengers, suggesting that builds other than the blue/black storms are not as impressive.

Rhymerballs: Since Interceptor-fighters don't matter for the Empire (too many of them can die to incidental fire, and don't compare in capital-killing power to Rhymerballs), if Empire takes fighters, the most discussed build is some combination that abuses Rhymer. Sometimes a breakout list of mixed aces will show, but the quickest and deadliest way to use fighters is abusing the one standout bomber advantage the Empire has over the Rebels.

If it were up to me I'd like to see the game shift back to the way the starter kit had things: Empire is tough space mountains and the Rebels have to use guile and speed to win. Ackbar and Home One single-handedly spelled the doom of any Imperial heavy-hulled lists because they come down so hard on the VSD, which is the heavy-ship filler.

I kind of have to disagree, but more it is flip the equation. I almost always go for the extra range. I find the VSD I to be about the biggest waist of points in the game, almost never use gladiators at all (with or with out titles). My VSD II still sees the table a lot. I find black dice to be almost useless, mostly as the rebels are more mobile (and part of that is my play style), I feel the red dice is 1000 X better then the black. I do not know how I would do in other areas, but in mine I win more than I lose by a fair margin, so it may just be area depending.

VSD I is a waste if you're actually expecting to get black shots off with it. Moreso if you actually arm it with ordnance upgrades. VSD I is cheap pocket carrier right now (there might be some use for it as a 2nd line sweeper who likes deterring fast ships from getting into your booty, but I'm not sure...I'll have to test that. 73 points (minimum), might be too much to pay for a ship who's only roll is backfield deterrence. Glad or Raider might serve the roll, and is a more economic option.)

In order to properly use black dice, you want high activation counts and faster ships. This pretty much excludes the VSD 1. MC30's, Glads and to a lesser extent, Raiders, can be armed with orndance upgrades and gobble other ships up because they have both of those attributes (activation count and speed). I'm currently more inclined to think that, in order to use raiders properly offensively (which is to say, aside from an objective token camper), or an out-of-the-way pocket flag-ship for your Admiral that you don't want being engaged, you need lots of speedy ships. (read: Clontroper's list)

I think a lot of it has to do with my play style, I am a slow moving force. So I find black dice useless, but red are great, blue still nice. I never expect to get back shots with anything. So it like I said it comes down to play style, but was just saying for those who say the VSD II is useless I think it is the same as it does great for me, in a lot of ways it is better than the ISD due to the cost.

Dissagree pretty much with every thing you said.

* Glad II sees play where i am. We run lots of squadrons. 2 Blue, Demolisher, another 2 Blue is a really strong anti Squadron platform.

* VSD I/VSD II still see tons of play. We had a x2 VSD I/Glad/Squadrons win a store champs agaisnt all the usual Wave 2 suspects. In another Champs there were 6 VSD in the top 5, with 1st running 2 and second 1 (no ISD for either list). People say "it's just carrier". Yeah its a carrier that can throw 5 Blue and 2 Black Bomber at Range 7. VSD IIs see play as complementary ships that intercept things. VSDs are hard to fly. A ill deployment can see them do nothing all game.

* ISD I is fine. People use it as a carrier or bum rush activation list.

* Raider II im not terribly impressed with. I don't recall people using it to much effect. I don't think it's great. Ion Cannon gimmicks never seem to do much.

But maybe that's the nature of the beast?

Imperial being fairly standardised with preset orders of battle

Rebels being more fluid and ragtag, with forces compared of what was available, or could be hijacked/stolen, etc.