So I was looking at the move power and I had a question about the move upgrades for magnitude and Strength. Do you increase the strength and magnitude by the number of points you have in them each time you spend a force pip, or do they simply increase the amount of force pips you can spend on the power?

The former. If you have all 4 Strength upgrades, each pip you spend activating that upgrade increases the Silhouette by 4.

The former. If you have all 4 Strength upgrades, each pip you spend activating that upgrade increases the Silhouette by 4.

Yep, this. Which makes it pretty scary/fun to invest into that power heavily. Or any of the Force powers honestly. Once you get a decent Force die pool (2-3), you can start consistently doing some impressive stuff.

So with it fully upgraded and spending 4 force pips to activate the power and each upgrade then your able to do an enormous amount of damage.

You could rip 5 objects that are Silhouette 4 out of the ground at Extreme range... And use Auto-Fire to attack with them!

Or how about Moving a Silhouette 8 object for those same 4 pips.

To make a 3 starships of silhouette 4 that is flying above you (extreme range) come crashing to the ground at your feet would only require 4 pips if you have move maxed out? 1 for ability, 1 for range, 1 for magnitude, and 1 for strength? I'd assume you would have to pass a 4 purple discipline check then more for the 2nd and 3rd ship.

If this is correct, my seer/sage with FR of 5 is going to outrageous.

So with it fully upgraded and spending 4 force pips to activate the power and each upgrade then your able to do an enormous amount of damage.

You could rip 5 objects that are Silhouette 4 out of the ground at Extreme range... And use Auto-Fire to attack with them!

Or how about Moving a Silhouette 8 object for those same 4 pips.

Yeah, my only issue with this Sil 8 example, is given the size of that object, to be within Personal Scale distance, you'd basically have to be on the ship Personally, I wouldn't mind adding another tab to the power tree, just like Battle Meditation, that lets you convert the scale to Planetary, to make this make sense. But that's just me.

Sounds basically right yeah. If the ships were currently piloted, yes I'd have you do a Discipline check. If they were, for example, just sitting in a hangar bay, and you used them to fling them at a wall to open an exit, I probably wouldn't bother

So with it fully upgraded and spending 4 force pips to activate the power and each upgrade then your able to do an enormous amount of damage.

You could rip 5 objects that are Silhouette 4 out of the ground at Extreme range... And use Auto-Fire to attack with them!

Or how about Moving a Silhouette 8 object for those same 4 pips.

Yeah, my only issue with this Sil 8 example, is given the size of that object, to be within Personal Scale distance, you'd basically have to be on the ship Personally, I wouldn't mind adding another tab to the power tree, just like Battle Meditation, that lets you convert the scale to Planetary, to make this make sense. But that's just me.

To make a 3 starships of silhouette 4 that is flying above you (extreme range) come crashing to the ground at your feet would only require 4 pips if you have move maxed out? 1 for ability, 1 for range, 1 for magnitude, and 1 for strength? I'd assume you would have to pass a 4 purple discipline check then more for the 2nd and 3rd ship.

If this is correct, my seer/sage with FR of 5 is going to outrageous.

Sounds basically right yeah. If the ships were currently piloted, yes I'd have you do a Discipline check. If they were, for example, just sitting in a hangar bay, and you used them to fling them at a wall to open an exit, I probably wouldn't bother

That sounds great! If you've played Force Unleashed, Starkiller pulls a star destroyer out of the sky. I just wanted my character to get that powerful. Looks like at about 300 xp it would be possible. That's awesome.

That sounds great! If you've played Force Unleashed, Starkiller pulls a star destroyer out of the sky. I just wanted my character to get that powerful. Looks like at about 300 xp it would be possible. That's awesome.

Yeah, though many people consider that event in Force Unleashed to be a cautionary tale against Force power OPness. I personally, find it perfectly fine, "Size matters not" as Yoda would say, but that's just me. Some people will say "I will set any of my players on fire if they try and do that Starkiller trick in my game". Others, like myself are like "Hell yeah! Pull that ***** out of the sky!! ...if you can pull it off!"

But, it would be costly as hell. This is just my very rough, top of my head rundown of how that would be done. Don't have my books in front of me so some of it might be incorrect but:

Add a house ruled talent bubble in the tree, just like Battle Meditation. Purchase it, can spend...I think it's 2 strain (?) to upgrade the scale to Planetary. Then, as an extended action over many turns, you could move it several range bands. Each turn, as you maintain the effect (probably requiring you to commit 2-3 of your force dice to do this), you are also suffering strain every round, and are basically stationary. Anyone attacking you will get an upgrade to their check. Possibly just a boost die, but maybe a full upgrade. And if you used Dark Side pips to activate everything, and then commit over time, you will incur conflict every turn as well, as you are basically fueling the continuous action with your *insert dark emotion of your choice based on situation*. If you don't use any dark pips, then you just sufferer the strain cost and vulnerability to attack.

So yeah, you could potentially pull it off, but it's not going to be easy, or pleasant, and it's going to potentially cost you. But personally, as the GM, if one of my players devoted that much time and XP to be a Move powerhouse, and he came up with a badass stunt of describing how he's going to pull this *insert crazy big object* and smash it into *insert threat/challenge of the scene*. I'm totally going to let him do it. I'm about awesomeness in my game, and if he makes it sound awesome in my head, I'm all for it. Yeah...my time playing Scion/Exalted has definitely colored my brain with "Go Big or Go Home"

Again, that's just my take on that. Others will have their own opinions I'm sure.

If I remember correctly, extreme on personal scale is short at plantery. If there is a silhouette 8 super star destroyer would be at extreme range on a planetry scale, you might need to activate your extreme personal scale range 4 times. So if that's 1 for move, 2 for strength, and 4 for range, then some crazy discipline check. That's still only 7 pips. The potential for 10 pips makes even the most extreme move power possible. That's crazy.

If I remember correctly, extreme on personal scale is short at plantery. If there is a silhouette 8 super star destroyer would be at extreme range on a planetry scale, you might need to activate your extreme personal scale range 4 times. So if that's 1 for move, 2 for strength, and 4 for range, then some crazy discipline check. That's still only 7 pips. The potential for 10 pips makes even the most extreme move power possible. That's crazy.

As I understand that Planetary upgrade in Battle Meditation to work, you spend the strain, and it upgrades the entire scale to Planetary for you. So then, if you've maxed out the Range upgrade, spending 1 pip would give you the maximum range on Planetary scale. I don't recall what range band Move maxes out at? Extreme I think ? I don't remember. But anyway, to me, if that is the case, it would only require the 1 pip to have the maximum range needed for anything Planetary.

But yeah, it's possible, hard as heck, but possible.

That sounds great! If you've played Force Unleashed, Starkiller pulls a star destroyer out of the sky. I just wanted my character to get that powerful. Looks like at about 300 xp it would be possible. That's awesome.

Yeah, though many people consider that event in Force Unleashed to be a cautionary tale against Force power OPness. I personally, find it perfectly fine, "Size matters not" as Yoda would say, but that's just me. Some people will say "I will set any of my players on fire if they try and do that Starkiller trick in my game". Others, like myself are like "Hell yeah! Pull that ***** out of the sky!! ...if you can pull it off!"

But, it would be costly as hell. This is just my very rough, top of my head rundown of how that would be done. Don't have my books in front of me so some of it might be incorrect but:

Add a house ruled talent bubble in the tree, just like Battle Meditation. Purchase it, can spend...I think it's 2 strain (?) to upgrade the scale to Planetary. Then, as an extended action over many turns, you could move it several range bands. Each turn, as you maintain the effect (probably requiring you to commit 2-3 of your force dice to do this), you are also suffering strain every round, and are basically stationary. Anyone attacking you will get an upgrade to their check. Possibly just a boost die, but maybe a full upgrade. And if you used Dark Side pips to activate everything, and then commit over time, you will incur conflict every turn as well, as you are basically fueling the continuous action with your *insert dark emotion of your choice based on situation*. If you don't use any dark pips, then you just sufferer the strain cost and vulnerability to attack.

So yeah, you could potentially pull it off, but it's not going to be easy, or pleasant, and it's going to potentially cost you. But personally, as the GM, if one of my players devoted that much time and XP to be a Move powerhouse, and he came up with a badass stunt of describing how he's going to pull this *insert crazy big object* and smash it into *insert threat/challenge of the scene*. I'm totally going to let him do it. I'm about awesomeness in my game, and if he makes it sound awesome in my head, I'm all for it. Yeah...my time playing Scion/Exalted has definitely colored my brain with "Go Big or Go Home"

Again, that's just my take on that. Others will have their own opinions I'm sure.

If one of my players wanted to pull a Star killer I certainly wouldn't stop them out of hand I'd make it difficult however.

Probably do it as a cumulative roll of successes as I imagine the destroyers pilots would try to not crash.

Every roll as a combined move and discipline check getting a step harder each time until you reach the target number.

Advantages healing strain and triumphs giving a boost to next roll, threats giving you strain and despair reducing your Force rating temporarily due to exhaustion.

If one of my players wanted to pull a Star killer I certainly wouldn't stop them out of hand I'd make it difficult however.

Probably do it as a cumulative roll of successes as I imagine the destroyers pilots would try to not crash.

Every roll as a combined move and discipline check getting a step harder each time until you reach the target number.

Advantages healing strain and triumphs giving a boost to next roll, threats giving you strain and despair reducing your Force rating temporarily due to exhaustion.

That's a good idea actually, didn't think about the Discipline check to try and replenish strain so you can stay up long enough to pull it off....wow that sounds dirty when I read it again.

I tend to try and make things simplified, hence the "commit force die to just keep it going, and pay the strain cost no matter what". Quicker, easier. But yeah, probably need to be getting advantage to replenish that strain.

The biggest limiting factor? How many bystanders now know your a powerful Force User, and of them how many think of the reward on your head?

That's a good idea actually, didn't think about the Discipline check to try and replenish strain so you can stay up long enough to pull it off....wow that sounds dirty when I read it again.

I tend to try and make things simplified, hence the "commit force die to just keep it going, and pay the strain cost no matter what". Quicker, easier. But yeah, probably need to be getting advantage to replenish that strain.

Most of the time I try to keep things simple too, but sometimes the crazy plans of players require a bit of complexity lol

You know, we talked about capping it at Sil 4 and haven't really come to a decision yet.

Dropping starships on enemies happens almost every single session now; every time a large object shows up, it's basically used as a telekinetic bowling ball. It's bad enough with the 2 Force Dice PC, let alone what the F&D characters will eventually get.

While I haven't enforced anything yet, I've strongly suggested they refrain from doing anything too 'Force Unleashed' without some serious strain.

Because while I'm happy for the Force to be potent, I think Monobrow Boy was the very nadir of the SW universe... despite being up against some serious opposition like Jedi Prince, Crying Mountain and Darth Vader's Magic Glove...

(yeah, some things in the EU were silly, but turning the Force up to 11 ruins it for me, makes it feel like some silly videogame )

Monobrow Boy... Jedi Prince, Crying Mountain and Darth Vader's Magic Glove...

Literally fell of my chair in laughter... Epic descriptions.

You know, we talked about capping it at Sil 4 and haven't really come to a decision yet.

Dropping starships on enemies happens almost every single session now; every time a large object shows up, it's basically used as a telekinetic bowling ball. It's bad enough with the 2 Force Dice PC, let alone what the F&D characters will eventually get.

Agreed. I have zero interest in that flavour of game, where it becomes the go-to damage producer. Had to rewrite it as a utility and occasional minion-clearing tool.

One GM I once talked with had a way different take one this. He wondered when the character would have, and when the character would lose, the ability to keep himself grounded. I laughed out loudly when I started to see the picture there. Jedi Starkiller Wannabe raises his hands towards the Star Destroyer overhead. He summons all his Force strength and actually should be capable of influencing an object the size of the Star Destroyer. Then there was a battle of capabilities, the willpower of the J.S.W. versus the strength of the repulsors on that Star Destroyer. In the end I could imagine the repulsors, capable of making an ICSD float in the air, win, where the character couldn't keep his feet on the ground, launched himself, crashed headfirst into the "Belly of the Beast" at high speed due to the massive Force strength he summoned, and then fell down to the ground again, unconscious from the impact...

Like I said, I laughed out loudly when my imagination took over.

That sounds great! If you've played Force Unleashed, Starkiller pulls a star destroyer out of the sky. I just wanted my character to get that powerful. Looks like at about 300 xp it would be possible. That's awesome.

That sounds great! If you've played Force Unleashed, Starkiller pulls a star destroyer out of the sky. I just wanted my character to get that powerful. Looks like at about 300 xp it would be possible. That's awesome.

Notably, the biggest limiting factor on Force talents isn't XP but the number of Force dice you wield (which I guess is just another function of XP) -- at least early on. Your aforementioned FR5 guy maybe less so...

Yeah, I would still call it an XP factor, the limiting, but that's pretty typical, as that applies to everyone. Every player's capability is limited by their XP investment into said abilities/powers. But considering my current game, and how one of my players got FR 2 a few sessions ago, the consistent ability with even lower level Force powers, compared to FR 1 and FR 2, is considerable. He went from only being able to consistently Moving silhouette 0 objects, (he had the upgrades, but just couldn't get the pips to roll), to picking up a silhouette 2 creature and flinging it like a wrecking ball into it's allies. So, based on actual play, I would say the FR rating is definitely the larger limiting factor for Force badassery, but it's still a function of XP

You know, we talked about capping it at Sil 4 and haven't really come to a decision yet.

Dropping starships on enemies happens almost every single session now; every time a large object shows up, it's basically used as a telekinetic bowling ball. It's bad enough with the 2 Force Dice PC, let alone what the F&D characters will eventually get.

Agreed. I have zero interest in that flavour of game, where it becomes the go-to damage producer. Had to rewrite it as a utility and occasional minion-clearing tool.

Well one thing you can do, is limit the inclusion of large silhouette objects to situations that don't involve combat. There is an evacuation of a planet that is suffering from catastrophic tectonic disruption (some Imperial planet killer weapon for example). The civilians are trying to flee, but, seeing as this is Star Wars, and handrails are a thing of myth and fiction, the bridge they are running across is incredibly dangerous, and cracks. The big Mover could try and hold up the bridge with Move, to help the citizens, instead of hurling it at something. Or pull a Yoda from Attack of the Clones, and catch something about to squish some innocents.

Also, there is the bit I mentioned above, about once the Silhouette gets to a certain size, it's just impractical to assume the Force user is separate from the object they're moving. A Sil 7 object is a few kilometers long (IIRC). And there's just no way to be in Personal Range band distance for something that big, and not be on it. And even if you did say "I'm floating along side the ship in a tiny fighter!" Ok, so how far are you going to move it? 1 personal range band? So you displace it what, a few hundred yards? That's not even going to register on their scopes. So then you have a built in limiter for size in a lot of cases.

Well one thing you can do, is limit the inclusion of large silhouette objects to situations that don't involve combat.

Those are good story ideas, but that doesn't really resolve the mechanics for me because IMHI*, Sil 3 or 4 should be about the cap, and only the strongest (or most desperate) can hope to achieve it. Which means all those Strength upgrades in the current tree are a waste of space and provide too quick a path to large objects. They're also too cheap IMHO.

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* IMHI: in my humble interpretation. I'm not suggesting anyone else follow this interpretation, but it gives me the flavour I want.

Rise anew you thread and hear my command... errr... question I meant. (spell for thread necromancing)

just a short question for the "Move Power" i couldn´t find answered yet.

When hurling an object at an enemy the difficulty of the attack(deciplin) becomes that of the silhouette of the object.

the attack as RAW counts as an Rangeattak by all means (Defens, aim ect)

(NOW THE QUESTION)

Does this also include an increase of the difficulty as the range expands?

Or in other words: is the difficulty of the silhoutte just the basic difficulty at short range and each range band adds an to the check

So hurling 3 objects of Sil 1 on medium Range would be a check against (one for Sil1, one for medium range and one for Auto-fire)

I´m i readying it right?

Nope, range band does not impact the difficulty of the Discipline check. So in your example, the base difficulty for the check (before any traits that impact the difficulty of ranged combat checks the target might have) is 2 purple (1 base for Silhouette 1 object, +1 per auto-fire for hurling multiple objects).

I, personally, make it both. Sort of how a Piloting check is generally the lesser of (1/2 x Sil) or Speed, and then upgraded by the second value, I make the difficulty of a Move attack equal to the lesser of Sil or normal ranged attack difficulty (measured from the location of the object* to the location of the target), and then the other value is the number of upgrades.

So throwing a Sil 3 object that's right next to you at a target within long range? Then the difficulty is 3 Challenge Dice. Same object being thrown only short range? 1 Challenge and 2 Difficulty Dice.

The reason for this is two-fold: one, it makes throwing giant objects a bit harder making it less common, and two, very large objects aren't as likely to stop nicely once they reach their target. Momentum has a tendency to keep things moving, so Despairs are used to cause collateral damage from the YT-1300 you just chucked halfway across the spaceport. Sure, you might have hit your target and he's a smear on the ground, but those two Despairs say that you also caused some civilian casualties as the ship rolled through that wall and then kept going.

Clearly this is a house rule, but I think it works very well for balancing the power of Move. Keep things small and short range and it's a great tactic to be able to use anything in your environment as a weapon. Start chucking ships three blocks or more and there's going to be some problems. You can do it, sure, but at what cost?

*If you are engaged with any hostiles, the Engaged penalty applies to your attack, no matter where the object is going from or to; Sil 0 objects are +1 Difficulty Die, anything larger are +2.