I wasn't a big fan of the "I rebel" line or how it was delivered.

I guess that's most of what I was saying. There's a pattern to how some movies handle this, and this one fits it.

Somehow that got turned into "I hate women".

nope.... I was just joking with you and the tree house/cooties comment, it was the "guess Star Wars ran out of male heroes" line that was just too .... Never mind. And then the "women can`t be like male heroes" line..

Personally, I'm not bothering to see this one. I've already seen The Hunger Games, and I still want my money back. Why should I see a repeat?

I do have a problem with a female lead that is pretending to be a man. It doesn't work. Women can be action heroes, but it has to be done right. They can't just start out like Rey or Katniss, but have to have the internal struggle first that forces them into action, like with Ripley in Aliens.

This is because Men and Women are different. Men are mavericks and loners, risk-takers and adventurers in a way women aren't. Women are nurturers, caretakers, networkers, diplomats, talkers. They rely on others to provide for and protect them, and until that changes in a serious way, no woman in her right mind would willingly decide to do something that she knows could get her in trouble, or worse. Ripley, in Aliens, had to reconcile the fact that the Marines may not be able to protect her, so she had to make a change in order to protect both herself and rescue Newt. We can believe Ripley. We can't believe whoever this new chick is in Rogue One, who might as well be Rey.

What I described up there is called the Feminine Journey, which is an internal struggle, first and foremost. Masculine Journeys are external struggles, where there is a challenge to be overcome and the hero must act in order to overcome it. A feminine journey is about self-change. While you certainly can mix or swap the two to respective sexes, you have to be very careful to suspend disbelief. A woman who is a bad-ass starting out, and is the protagonist, comes off as a Mary Sue. A man who commiserates over every little thing too much comes off as a whiner. Both are either unbelievable or unlikable.

So I'm not going to see Rogue One. I've already seen it.

You got all that from a 30 second trailer?

I sure did. Hollywood has very little creativity left. They take whatever's selling right now and try to adapt it to their projects. And it works. Mainly, though, I was being a little facetious about The Hunger Games reference. I could've just as well had said Divergent or even The Force Awakens and it would work as well for my illustration.

You know there are really only 7 stories right? There is plenty of creativity left. Is Hollywood lazy? Yes... look at Batman vs. Superman? Lazy. Look at the Marvel series... Not lazy and a fair amount of effort in making good movies with varying levels of success.

Personally, I'm not bothering to see this one. I've already seen The Hunger Games, and I still want my money back. Why should I see a repeat?

I do have a problem with a female lead that is pretending to be a man. It doesn't work. Women can be action heroes, but it has to be done right. They can't just start out like Rey or Katniss, but have to have the internal struggle first that forces them into action, like with Ripley in Aliens.

This is because Men and Women are different...

<snip>

So I'm not going to see Rogue One. I've already seen it.

Wait...what? You mean every movie character and their development has to follow pre-defined gender paths? Ridiculous premise and...haven't you seen *those* movies already?

I didn't like the line or the delivery in this trailer. I didn't like the setup. (Some cool fan things, like Mon Mothma, I could look forward to, I'd love to see more of her development.)

They did some of this in the Guardians of the Galaxy trailer, which made me not want to see the movie. Boy, was I ever wrong!

I hope I'm wrong again.

Well, it works when they do follow gender paths. Because men and women are different.

If you make a man or a woman follow a different gender path, you have to show the audience why. Take, in an opposite example, the movie Tootsie. It's about a man who's an actor hoping to find a job, and finds that he has to pose as a woman in order to get that job. So he has to act like a woman, and in so doing sees things from the female perspective, and this changes his attitude toward women. This is a Feminine Journey, taken by a man, who overcomes an external obstacle and, in so doing, takes internal action to change himself.

We will not soon care for Rey (unless something happens in VIII), or Katniss, for years to come, because they are not interesting characters. They don't inspire, because they're not compelling. Ripley, on the other hand, is very compelling. She's more relatable in a way Katniss isn't, and men like Ripley, because here's a woman who didn't need to show up the men around her, the men didn't have to be incompetent wusses around her (which is what is often done these days with female action leads - they dumb-down and render incompetent every man around her so she comes off awesome), and she had to change because of the situation.

Is this just baiting now? ^

You know there are really only 7 stories right? There is plenty of creativity left. Is Hollywood lazy? Yes... look at Batman vs. Superman? Lazy. Look at the Marvel series... Not lazy and a fair amount of effort in making good movies with varying levels of success.

I didn't say Hollywood was lazy. I said they're running out of creativity, and this is, in part, because they have no moral compass and are somewhat detached from reality. Of course, Hollywood hasn't had a moral compass since the 60s, but it's only recently, at least since the 90s, have they been detached from reality. Without either, you end up making a lot of films with tons of holes, flaws, and bad narratives, mainly because they're trying to appeal to so many people and dangle shiny objects in our faces rather than tell compelling stories. When 95% of the movies made nowadays are remakes, reboots, or television adaptations, you know something is terribly wrong in La-La-Land.

I am not embarrassed about reacting when people have "opinions" about race, sexual orientation or gender. Maybe I came off a bit more agressive then I wanted, but I meant what I said, it`s my opinion.

As for men and women being very different, everyone is different, I`m a man and I`m not a maverick, a loner and a risk-taker. Is it so far fetched to think not all women are the same too? Even in Star Wars....

Sarah Connor and Ripley are cool, but I love Furiosa and Rey too, they are absolutely badass. And look at all the women in Game of Thrones, they are all different, all have different personalities and drives, just like the men.

I wish we could just talk about the trailer but this is just so silly and outdated and embarrassing as a fan of this genre and franchise.

Silly and outdated? How? And, so what? Men and women are different. If you are a man and aren't a risk-taker, a maverick, or whatever, you are feminized. That isn't good, and isn't really what women are looking for in men. And women who adopt masculine qualities do so probably because there aren't enough real men in the world for them to find.

Ugh. This thread started out fun and has devolved. Are we ready to start taking bets on threadlock?

Let's argue about who has the biggest blaster...

Of course, Hollywood hasn't had a moral compass since the 60s, but it's only recently, at least since the 90s, have they been detached from reality.

Yeah, and in the 60s they complained that Hollywood hasn't had a moral compass since the 40s...yada yada

<utter MRA bullsh*t>

Troll somewhere else, please.

So weird huh? We have people coming in with gender bashing, we have people deriding movies they haven't seen because "their friend said the main character was a 'Mary Sue' and we have people claiming they already saw a movie based on a trailer that shows literally nothing about the contents of the movie. All the while crying about their "right to their opinion".

Tell you what. How about you take your 17 posts on this board and stick them right next to where you ought to keep your uninformed, trollish, special little snowflake opinion and go back to 4chan or the IMDB boards where people are interested in reading and displaying this brand of 2016 "look at me all interesting and sh!t"-bs?

The internet is a sad sad place some days...

Kind of ironic when men who want men to be men and women to be women do all the whining.

I didn't say Hollywood was lazy. I said they're running out of creativity, and this is, in part, because they have no moral compass and are somewhat detached from reality.

Silly and outdated? How? And, so what? Men and women are different. If you are a man and aren't a risk-taker, a maverick, or whatever, you are feminized. That isn't good, and isn't really what women are looking for in men. And women who adopt masculine qualities do so probably because there aren't enough real men in the world for them to find.

Must be contagious.............

Wow, the Internet. Where everybody knows everything, and everyone except me is wrong. It is great that people can have an opinion, but to make broad statements like "this is a Mary Sue" movie is ridiculous. It is one thing to have a solid opinion, like, maybe this movie does not into excite me, or whatever, but to start out right "Prequel-esque" bashing is not needed here. If do don't want to watch it, don't. Great. But you don't need to come here and bash it. I could not care about the WoW movie. I have Zero interest in it. I'm not going to go on to a WoW forum, and tell them how contrite and recycled it is. (I have no idea if it is or not!)

It was called a teaser trailer, I'm so glad that we have all these experts here that derive all these greats facts from 1:30 minutes of an unfinished movie...

This is because Men and Women are different. Men are mavericks and loners, risk-takers and adventurers in a way women aren't. Women are nurturers, caretakers, networkers, diplomats, talkers. They rely on others to provide for and protect them, and until that changes in a serious way, no woman in her right mind would willingly decide to do something that she knows could get her in trouble, or worse. Ripley, in Aliens, had to reconcile the fact that the Marines may not be able to protect her, so she had to make a change in order to protect both herself and rescue Newt. We can believe Ripley. We can't believe whoever this new chick is in Rogue One, who might as well be Rey.

What I described up there is called the Feminine Journey, which is an internal struggle, first and foremost. Masculine Journeys are external struggles, where there is a challenge to be overcome and the hero must act in order to overcome it. A feminine journey is about self-change. While you certainly can mix or swap the two to respective sexes, you have to be very careful to suspend disbelief. A woman who is a bad-ass starting out, and is the protagonist, comes off as a Mary Sue. A man who commiserates over every little thing too much comes off as a whiner. Both are either unbelievable or unlikable.

So I'm not going to see Rogue One. I've already seen it.

Yeah, so I gotta be that guy, you are going to have to show me the science behind this. I mean, you may as well say only men can be sociopaths and only woman can have empathy. This all sounds like a bunch of gender stereotypes that you pulled out of your bum! lol

As for the trailer it looks fine, I'm not blown away but I will go see it in theaters.

I wouldn't argue too hard with Wayfinder. Being the avatar has been a member since 2009 with only 95 active posts and then posts this inflammatory stuff leads me to the conclusion their is definitely someone lacking "risk taker" status here. I am thinking throw down account for someone that doesn't have the "moral compass" to post their troll poop under their main account.

Hey, I was looking for the thread about Star Wars Rogue 1, has anyone seen it?

No, and you won`t before little boys stop whining about girls in their star wars movies.... Ok, I`m sorry, that sounded kind of bitter. You have a good point, sir. But we kind of are talking about the movie and the choise of cast and written characters.

And none of this has anything to do with the casting in "Rogue One", its looks great. Cant wait! I was just a little surprised after Rey that they did it again so soon.

I am glad we got more than just a token female lead in a huge franchise like this. It makes me respect the creaters even more, to understand these movies really needed more female characters, just to be able to take itself seriously, but also because they have to respect the massive amount female fans out there, and the female fans to come.

Pretty sure we covered the whole politics and religion thing in mixed company within the last couple weeks. I'll say it again, I absolutely support freedom and equality and in particular free speech.

However, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Even if you are on the correct side of a moral issue it doesn't give you a blank check to deny anyone else their opinion, however detestable (or not) some may be, and it certainly doesn't green light angry name calling, because if you're actually trying to make a valid adult point and sway someone's opinion, you're pretty much going to have zero success if the strategy is to name call and vilify.

It immediately calls into question as to how much you personally embrace the notion of free speech, as well as, the honesty of your position and whether or not you actually support a cause, or just like using it as a socially acceptable excuse to be an ass to someone else and get away with it.

I happily argue over the inconsequential nerd stuff here on these forums that we all do. However, when one looks at the current state of the world, and the stuff that actually matters, I don't think angry finger pointing and screaming is leading us anywhere particularly good, and we have no lack of either and much worse.

But....but...other people having an opinion? That's so not fair! Why, they might do something like have reservations about a new Star Wars movie. For which they shall HAVE to be attacked. And for some reason, either my phone or this site's software won't let me post the perfect response in that topic. Ah well, no skin off my ass. Guess I'll just have to live my life instead of getting 8utthurt that some random person on Teh Interwebz has an opinion.

He said, having just finished complaining about "Mary Sues" unironically.

That was kind of the point I was making. You must have been a huge fan of TFA, because you couldn't stand that I had an opinion. Everything I've heard or read about TFA, including from a good friend who went to see it, led me to the conclusions that Rey is Mary Sue, and I wasn't missing anything by not seeing it. Apparently that poleaxed a sacred cow of yours. I'm not the least bit sorry about that.

You must live in a strange world, where casual snark is a typical response to axing sacred cows.

But I guess the rest of us will just have to resign ourselves to enjoying a wildly popular film that you don't.

Personally, I'm not bothering to see this one. I've already seen The Hunger Games, and I still want my money back. Why should I see a repeat?

I do have a problem with a female lead that is pretending to be a man. It doesn't work. Women can be action heroes, but it has to be done right. They can't just start out like Rey or Katniss, but have to have the internal struggle first that forces them into action, like with Ripley in Aliens.

This is because Men and Women are different. Men are mavericks and loners, risk-takers and adventurers in a way women aren't. Women are nurturers, caretakers, networkers, diplomats, talkers. They rely on others to provide for and protect them, and until that changes in a serious way, no woman in her right mind would willingly decide to do something that she knows could get her in trouble, or worse. Ripley, in Aliens, had to reconcile the fact that the Marines may not be able to protect her, so she had to make a change in order to protect both herself and rescue Newt. We can believe Ripley. We can't believe whoever this new chick is in Rogue One, who might as well be Rey.

What I described up there is called the Feminine Journey, which is an internal struggle, first and foremost. Masculine Journeys are external struggles, where there is a challenge to be overcome and the hero must act in order to overcome it. A feminine journey is about self-change. While you certainly can mix or swap the two to respective sexes, you have to be very careful to suspend disbelief. A woman who is a bad-ass starting out, and is the protagonist, comes off as a Mary Sue. A man who commiserates over every little thing too much comes off as a whiner. Both are either unbelievable or unlikable.

So I'm not going to see Rogue One. I've already seen it.

Of course, Hollywood hasn't had a moral compass since the 60s, but it's only recently, at least since the 90s, have they been detached from reality.

By Hollywood's moral compass immediately prior to the 60s, are you referring to the systemic blacklisting of individuals who exercised their right to free speech and assembly?

Giving the benefit of the doubt, you have provided a very simple summary of the traditional Masculine and Feminine Journey story structures. Where I start to get frustrated is when you apply the logical fallacy that these Journeys demand a specific gender of the character (or expanded explanation of why a woman would be on a masculine journey). This is a fallacy because the Masculine and Feminine archetypes are named for the genders of two specific Sumerian gods (Gilgamesh and Inanna, respectively) on which the structures are based, not because they are the predominant experience of all men vs women.

These archetypes work with audiences because they represent familiar journeys of human change. They are broadly appealing because we all have internal and external experiences that we can relate to as we grow as people.

Silly and outdated? How? And, so what? Men and women are different. If you are a man and aren't a risk-taker, a maverick, or whatever, you are feminized. That isn't good, and isn't really what women are looking for in men. And women who adopt masculine qualities do so probably because there aren't enough real men in the world for them to find.

This set of generalizations is where I run out of benefit-of-the-doubt patience. Your statement that [all] women are looking for the risk-taker or maverick is simply not a universal truth. The assumptions for the reasons that women adopt masculine qualities is a dangerously broad brush with which to paint billions of individual people.

I imagine these assumptions comes from a narrow breadth of experience knowing and respecting a wide variety of people. Accordingly, I want to tell you why the Masculine and Feminine Journeys both resonate with me. I faced internal struggles as an introvert and outcast in high school when I had nerdy interests (Star Wars RPGs, for instance) with few friends. I faced external struggles during my time in Marine Corps training and later as a casualty evacuation pilot on multiple combat deployments. I faced all new internal struggles when I left active duty and needed to figure out who I was without a massive social and professional support structure around me. I have had to make life changing decisions and I have gone through experiences of personal rebirth. I don't think I'm unique as a man that way.

Masculine/Feminine is not a binary life experience. Personal growth is as varied as there are people. We're all just trying to find the journey that best fits us as individuals. I hope that you can continue to learn and grow your perception of people beyond stereotypes and as much more than deviations from some false ideal.

Yo, stop feeding the obvious troll. Either post funny reaction gifs or ignore him.

Liked the trailer until I watch the movie I'm going to assume there's a lot yet to be revealed and cross my fingers they don't try and rehash the OT like TFA appeared to.

Can't see that happening but didn't expect that in TFA but on the bright side no blasted Mystery Box!

Always nice to see the positives in a situation isn't it?!

The attacks on the new Baldur's Gate expansion and now attacks on female movie leads...because reasons.

Sad.

The attacks on the new Baldur's Gate expansion and now attacks on female movie leads...because reasons.

Sad.

I was just thinking this -- that I had been reading similarly odious BS on GoG reviews of Dragonspear.

Gaming's culture wars are so fedora-skeezy.

Of course, Hollywood hasn't had a moral compass since the 60s, but it's only recently, at least since the 90s, have they been detached from reality.

Yeah, and in the 60s they complained that Hollywood hasn't had a moral compass since the 40s...yada yada

Yup, it's pretty standard that every generation says the next one has gone to hell. It's pretty amusing reading that in a book from the 19th century and the feeling that the current generation is ruining things and are immoral (another 19th Century generation, of course).

Edit - showed the trailer to my wife and then shared the silliness of this thread. Buying two tickets now for sure.

At the risk of derailing: f*ck your binaries, troglodytes. D&D reacting today to the BS around transgender matters in Dragonspear and in D&D generally.

To our community,

Dungeons & Dragons stands by the stories our partners tell and we fully support the choices Beamdog has made in developing Siege of Dragonspear. Inclusivity is a core value of Wizards of the Coast and we believe that all people, regardless of ethnicity, background, gender identity or sexuality, should be free to play our games without fear of harassment or attacks. In July of 2014 we released the D&D Player’s Handbook for the fifth edition and included the following section as an example of our core values.

Sincerely,
Nathan Stewart
Director of Dungeons & Dragons

I am of the opinion that the remaining notions of gender roles in out current age... in this context, the path of the heroic journey... are and must be different for males and females has been reinforced by the stories told for generations.

To put it another way, the idea that "men and women are different" (again, in this context) only still exists because we grew up watching movies (and shows and reading books, etc) that, usually, told us as much. This stemmed from societal attitudes... sometimes willfully to support the status quo or casually by default.

The current iterations of "Star Wars" are not, and should not, be bound by these older modes of thinking for three (again, in my opinion) reasons:

1.) Setting: This is a galaxy far, far away and their history is not our history and is free from many of the exact social situations we deal with.

2.) Creators: "Star Wars" has gathered a diverse fan base since its creation and many of those fans are now a part of the creative force producing new "Star Wars" and I don't blame a one of them for wanting to see a familiar bit of themselves reflected.

3.) Consumers: There is an audience for a "Star Wars" that isn't overwhelmingly white guys.

And... still in my opinion... While there are racists and misogynists in all groups, I don't think (by and large) that that is what is going on here*... not exactly.
Fans of all stripes don't like the risk of their culture being watered down. Book readers vs movie watchers, old "Star Trek" vs. "Next Generation" vs. "Nu Trek", Basil Rathbone vs Robert Downey Jr. vs Benedict Cumberbatch** and so on.
Of the examples I gave above, "Star Wars" has done more damage to itself (so far, at least) under Lucas' watch... Christmas Special, Ewok TV movies, the still-common Sharks-vs-Jets-esque war between OT and PT devotees... than under Disney's (we will see how long that lasts).
A vocal group exists that still feel a cultural gulf between themselves and others unlike themselves and get uncomfortable when "an other" enters their culture in a manner that different from a pre-determined cultural role.

Personally, as a "Star Wars" fan, I LOVE the idea of seeing so many different people coming together to celebrate "Star Wars" and feeling like they are, by proxy, a part of it.


*Except for men telling women the types of characters they should prefer, identify with and aspire to. Guys, knock it off. I don't care what you think you are doing, its not right.

**They are all wrong: its Jeremy Brett