I don't have a problem with female leads or any other deviation from the admittedly predominant 'white male' star. If a part in a story is written for them, then great! Im a fan!

What I do have a problem with, and I hope I dont offend anyone here, is when a role seems to be filled with an unexpected deviation in actor preference.. well just because you can and ... as above... its 2016 and we have to recognize our diversity or whatever.

The recent trend of well known, established and traditional heroes and characters suddenly changing race, gender or sexual preference just for the hell of it is pretty disappointing.

A female X wing pilot? Awesome!

An ethnic Grand Moff? Cool!

A gay bounty hunter? Sure, whatever, fine!

But if a film rendition of "Heir to the Empire" presents Grand Admiral Thrawn as an oriental lesbian... well I'll have to off myself.

This kind of assumes that the "default" position for a hero is male, and/or white to be honest. I don't see how a new story, with new characters, is an "unexpected deviation". I have zero expectation of who the protagonists are, and why, and I don't care. I personally don't care if they never show me another white male protagonist again, as long as the characters they do show me are actually written well. If they're poorly written, 2 dimensional cliches, it doesn't matter what race/gender/sexual orientation they are, they're going to suck, and I'm going to be annoyed.

Besides, an asian lesbian Thrawn might actually make that character interesting. He was terribly over the top with his "oooh, mmmm, I've studied their aaaarht, so now I know their combat strategies, mmmm, yessss." attitude. Oh, and that line was said with a Stewie Griffin accent, for extra sass. Even when i was 12 years old and reading that series, I thought he was terrible. So sure! Bring on a lesbian Thrawn! It can't be any worse than the original!

And there you go. Laugh

My comment on unexpected deviation was referring to what one would expect of an actor picked to play a role where certain traits were already established. (gender, race etc.)

I would be just as upset if Mon Mothma was suddenly a grey haired old man or Lando Calrissean turned white!

Except that your previous comment of "looks like they've run out of male heroes" sort of implies that they should be using male heroes, the way you worded it. It certainly made a point that her gender as the lead protagonist is something of note.

Personally, I don't really care if they gender/race/orientation swap every known character to date in the history of ever. Write a good story with them and I don't care. I have no personal vested stake in Lando being black, or Spiderman being white, or Thrawn *gags* being male. It doesn't matter one whit to me, at all. I want a good story, with good characters that are compelling, and make me empathize with them. If the writers can't do that one thing which is their entire job really, then no amount of "sticking true to the source material" is going to matter. It's a bad character in a bad story.

Hey, I was looking for the thread about Star Wars Rogue 1, has anyone seen it?

Sorry my bad. Foot withdrawn, mouth empty.

Awh, just checked imdb, and Mon Mothma is Genevieve O'Reilly, not Tilda Swinton. I has a sad now.

I don't have a problem with female leads or any other deviation from the admittedly predominant 'white male' star. If a part in a story is written for them, then great! Im a fan!

What I do have a problem with, and I hope I dont offend anyone here, is when a role seems to be filled with an unexpected deviation in actor preference.. well just because you can and ... as above... its 2016 and we have to recognize our diversity or whatever.

The recent trend of well known, established and traditional heroes and characters suddenly changing race, gender or sexual preference just for the hell of it is pretty disappointing.

A female X wing pilot? Awesome!

An ethnic Grand Moff? Cool!

A gay bounty hunter? Sure, whatever, fine!

But if a film rendition of "Heir to the Empire" presents Grand Admiral Thrawn as an oriental lesbian... well I'll have to off myself.

Funny how there's never any need to justify an endless sea of straight white male leads, but as soon as you cast a woman or a minority or someone LGBT then people start asking "but is the role for them or are you just pandering?"

Looks good. Too little to be sure, but the production design and choice of actors is encouraging.

Perfect timing, since we're playing EotE tonight. So let's blow up some Imperial stuff and rebel!

http://www.thegeektwins.com/2013/05/25-movie-characters-that-inexplicably.html#.VwaLddIrJ2Q

What has that got to do with Star Wars? And none of these changed the race or gender of the character within the same continuity, only new and seperate interpretations.

I would be more upset with the whitening of every historical movie epic, but whatever... Sorry, too much bitter? I`m just sick of the boys club attitude. Not your fault and I didn`t mean to take it all out on you,.

Hey, I was looking for the thread about Star Wars Rogue 1, has anyone seen it?

No, and you won`t before little boys stop whining about girls in their star wars movies.... Ok, I`m sorry, that sounded kind of bitter. You have a good point, sir. But we kind of are talking about the movie and the choise of cast and written characters.

And none of this has anything to do with the casting in "Rogue One", its looks great. Cant wait! I was just a little surprised after Rey that they did it again so soon.

I am glad we got more than just a token female lead in a huge franchise like this. It makes me respect the creaters even more, to understand these movies really needed more female characters, just to be able to take itself seriously, but also because they have to respect the massive amount female fans out there, and the female fans to come.

The trailer really got me excited. The characters all look great, the tone and feel of the world feels very good to me, more like an old WWII movie. The actress playing Mon Mothma looks great. I don't know who most of the rest of the people are, and I'm hoping they don't share to much in future trailers.

I think I like the female lead, but need to see a bit more dialog before I render a stronger conclusion. I wasn't a big fan of the "I rebel" line or how it was delivered. That's my only real complaint about the whole thing though, so YAY.

I guess they are running out of male heroes in the Star Wars galaxy.

Tough noogies!

Hey, I was looking for the thread about Star Wars Rogue 1, has anyone seen it?

No, and you won`t before little boys stop whining about girls in their star wars movies.... Ok, I`m sorry, that sounded kind of bitter. You have a good point, sir. But we kind of are talking about the movie and the choise of cast and written characters.

And none of this has anything to do with the casting in "Rogue One", its looks great. Cant wait! I was just a little surprised after Rey that they did it again so soon.

I am glad we got more than just a token female lead in a huge franchise like this. It makes me respect the creaters even more, to understand these movies really needed more female characters, just to be able to take itself seriously, but also because they have to respect the massive amount female fans out there, and the female fans to come.

Pretty sure we covered the whole politics and religion thing in mixed company within the last couple weeks. I'll say it again, I absolutely support freedom and equality and in particular free speech.

However, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Even if you are on the correct side of a moral issue it doesn't give you a blank check to deny anyone else their opinion, however detestable (or not) some may be, and it certainly doesn't green light angry name calling, because if you're actually trying to make a valid adult point and sway someone's opinion, you're pretty much going to have zero success if the strategy is to name call and vilify.

It immediately calls into question as to how much you personally embrace the notion of free speech, as well as, the honesty of your position and whether or not you actually support a cause, or just like using it as a socially acceptable excuse to be an ass to someone else and get away with it.

I happily argue over the inconsequential nerd stuff here on these forums that we all do. However, when one looks at the current state of the world, and the stuff that actually matters, I don't think angry finger pointing and screaming is leading us anywhere particularly good, and we have no lack of either and much worse.

Hey, I was looking for the thread about Star Wars Rogue 1, has anyone seen it?

No, and you won`t before little boys stop whining about girls in their star wars movies.... Ok, I`m sorry, that sounded kind of bitter. You have a good point, sir. But we kind of are talking about the movie and the choise of cast and written characters.

And none of this has anything to do with the casting in "Rogue One", its looks great. Cant wait! I was just a little surprised after Rey that they did it again so soon.

I am glad we got more than just a token female lead in a huge franchise like this. It makes me respect the creaters even more, to understand these movies really needed more female characters, just to be able to take itself seriously, but also because they have to respect the massive amount female fans out there, and the female fans to come.

Pretty sure we covered the whole politics and religion thing in mixed company within the last couple weeks. I'll say it again, I absolutely support freedom and equality and in particular free speech.

However, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Even if you are on the correct side of a moral issue it doesn't give you a blank check to deny anyone else their opinion, however detestable (or not) some may be, and it certainly doesn't green light angry name calling, because if you're actually trying to make a valid adult point and sway someone's opinion, you're pretty much going to have zero success if the strategy is to name call and vilify.

It immediately calls into question as to how much you personally embrace the notion of free speech, as well as, the honesty of your position and whether or not you actually support a cause, or just like using it as a socially acceptable excuse to be an ass to someone else and get away with it.

I happily argue over the inconsequential nerd stuff here on these forums that we all do. However, when one looks at the current state of the world, and the stuff that actually matters, I don't think angry finger pointing and screaming is leading us anywhere particularly good, and we have no lack of either and much worse.

(And I KNOW my phone doesn't have any issues with 'but t hurt', so it's gotta be a software thing)

Sigh.

Complain, complain complain.. That is all I see for the new star wars stuff. Not just Star Wars actually, everything. Are people really that jaded?

Also, do we need a second thread for this? Was the other four pager not visible when this one was made? I highly doubt that.

Hey, I was looking for the thread about Star Wars Rogue 1, has anyone seen it?

No, and you won`t before little boys stop whining about girls in their star wars movies.... Ok, I`m sorry, that sounded kind of bitter. You have a good point, sir. But we kind of are talking about the movie and the choise of cast and written characters.

And none of this has anything to do with the casting in "Rogue One", its looks great. Cant wait! I was just a little surprised after Rey that they did it again so soon.

I am glad we got more than just a token female lead in a huge franchise like this. It makes me respect the creaters even more, to understand these movies really needed more female characters, just to be able to take itself seriously, but also because they have to respect the massive amount female fans out there, and the female fans to come.

Pretty sure we covered the whole politics and religion thing in mixed company within the last couple weeks. I'll say it again, I absolutely support freedom and equality and in particular free speech.

However, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Even if you are on the correct side of a moral issue it doesn't give you a blank check to deny anyone else their opinion, however detestable (or not) some may be, and it certainly doesn't green light angry name calling, because if you're actually trying to make a valid adult point and sway someone's opinion, you're pretty much going to have zero success if the strategy is to name call and vilify.

It immediately calls into question as to how much you personally embrace the notion of free speech, as well as, the honesty of your position and whether or not you actually support a cause, or just like using it as a socially acceptable excuse to be an ass to someone else and get away with it.

I happily argue over the inconsequential nerd stuff here on these forums that we all do. However, when one looks at the current state of the world, and the stuff that actually matters, I don't think angry finger pointing and screaming is leading us anywhere particularly good, and we have no lack of either and much worse.

But....but...other people having an opinion? That's so not fair! Why, they might do something like have reservations about a new Star Wars movie. For which they shall HAVE to be attacked. And for some reason, either my phone or this site's software won't let me post the perfect response in that topic. Ah well, no skin off my ass. Guess I'll just have to live my life instead of getting 8utthurt that some random person on Teh Interwebz has an opinion.

He said, having just finished complaining about "Mary Sues" unironically.

But....but...other people having an opinion?

Yes, as firmly established by the venerable philosopher Harry Callahan.....

Hey, I was looking for the thread about Star Wars Rogue 1, has anyone seen it?

No, and you won`t before little boys stop whining about girls in their star wars movies.... Ok, I`m sorry, that sounded kind of bitter. You have a good point, sir. But we kind of are talking about the movie and the choise of cast and written characters.

And none of this has anything to do with the casting in "Rogue One", its looks great. Cant wait! I was just a little surprised after Rey that they did it again so soon.

I am glad we got more than just a token female lead in a huge franchise like this. It makes me respect the creaters even more, to understand these movies really needed more female characters, just to be able to take itself seriously, but also because they have to respect the massive amount female fans out there, and the female fans to come.

Pretty sure we covered the whole politics and religion thing in mixed company within the last couple weeks. I'll say it again, I absolutely support freedom and equality and in particular free speech.

However, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Even if you are on the correct side of a moral issue it doesn't give you a blank check to deny anyone else their opinion, however detestable (or not) some may be, and it certainly doesn't green light angry name calling, because if you're actually trying to make a valid adult point and sway someone's opinion, you're pretty much going to have zero success if the strategy is to name call and vilify.

It immediately calls into question as to how much you personally embrace the notion of free speech, as well as, the honesty of your position and whether or not you actually support a cause, or just like using it as a socially acceptable excuse to be an ass to someone else and get away with it.

I happily argue over the inconsequential nerd stuff here on these forums that we all do. However, when one looks at the current state of the world, and the stuff that actually matters, I don't think angry finger pointing and screaming is leading us anywhere particularly good, and we have no lack of either and much worse.

But....but...other people having an opinion? That's so not fair! Why, they might do something like have reservations about a new Star Wars movie. For which they shall HAVE to be attacked. And for some reason, either my phone or this site's software won't let me post the perfect response in that topic. Ah well, no skin off my ass. Guess I'll just have to live my life instead of getting 8utthurt that some random person on Teh Interwebz has an opinion.

He said, having just finished complaining about "Mary Sues" unironically.

That was kind of the point I was making. You must have been a huge fan of TFA, because you couldn't stand that I had an opinion. Everything I've heard or read about TFA, including from a good friend who went to see it, led me to the conclusions that Rey is Mary Sue, and I wasn't missing anything by not seeing it. Apparently that poleaxed a sacred cow of yours. I'm not the least bit sorry about that.

Personally, I'm not bothering to see this one. I've already seen The Hunger Games, and I still want my money back. Why should I see a repeat?

I do have a problem with a female lead that is pretending to be a man. It doesn't work. Women can be action heroes, but it has to be done right. They can't just start out like Rey or Katniss, but have to have the internal struggle first that forces them into action, like with Ripley in Aliens.

This is because Men and Women are different. Men are mavericks and loners, risk-takers and adventurers in a way women aren't. Women are nurturers, caretakers, networkers, diplomats, talkers. They rely on others to provide for and protect them, and until that changes in a serious way, no woman in her right mind would willingly decide to do something that she knows could get her in trouble, or worse. Ripley, in Aliens, had to reconcile the fact that the Marines may not be able to protect her, so she had to make a change in order to protect both herself and rescue Newt. We can believe Ripley. We can't believe whoever this new chick is in Rogue One, who might as well be Rey.

What I described up there is called the Feminine Journey, which is an internal struggle, first and foremost. Masculine Journeys are external struggles, where there is a challenge to be overcome and the hero must act in order to overcome it. A feminine journey is about self-change. While you certainly can mix or swap the two to respective sexes, you have to be very careful to suspend disbelief. A woman who is a bad-ass starting out, and is the protagonist, comes off as a Mary Sue. A man who commiserates over every little thing too much comes off as a whiner. Both are either unbelievable or unlikable.

So I'm not going to see Rogue One. I've already seen it.

Well-said and good points, Wayfarer. I like the Ripley example. I would have also used Sarah Connor, but decided not to bring up the points you mentioned because reasons. Glad you did though.

Edited because autocorrect is fragging KILLING me today.

.....

Personally, I'm not bothering to see this one. I've already seen The Hunger Games, and I still want my money back. Why should I see a repeat?

I do have a problem with a female lead that is pretending to be a man. It doesn't work. Women can be action heroes, but it has to be done right. They can't just start out like Rey or Katniss, but have to have the internal struggle first that forces them into action, like with Ripley in Aliens.

This is because Men and Women are different. Men are mavericks and loners, risk-takers and adventurers in a way women aren't. Women are nurturers, caretakers, networkers, diplomats, talkers. They rely on others to provide for and protect them, and until that changes in a serious way, no woman in her right mind would willingly decide to do something that she knows could get her in trouble, or worse. Ripley, in Aliens, had to reconcile the fact that the Marines may not be able to protect her, so she had to make a change in order to protect both herself and rescue Newt. We can believe Ripley. We can't believe whoever this new chick is in Rogue One, who might as well be Rey.

What I described up there is called the Feminine Journey, which is an internal struggle, first and foremost. Masculine Journeys are external struggles, where there is a challenge to be overcome and the hero must act in order to overcome it. A feminine journey is about self-change. While you certainly can mix or swap the two to respective sexes, you have to be very careful to suspend disbelief. A woman who is a bad-ass starting out, and is the protagonist, comes off as a Mary Sue. A man who commiserates over every little thing too much comes off as a whiner. Both are either unbelievable or unlikable.

So I'm not going to see Rogue One. I've already seen it.

You got all that from a 30 second trailer?

I wasn't a big fan of the "I rebel" line or how it was delivered.

I guess that's most of what I was saying. There's a pattern to how some movies handle this, and this one fits it.

Somehow that got turned into "I hate women".

I don't have a problem with female leads or any other deviation from the admittedly predominant 'white male' star. If a part in a story is written for them, then great! Im a fan!

What I do have a problem with, and I hope I dont offend anyone here, is when a role seems to be filled with an unexpected deviation in actor preference.. well just because you can and ... as above... its 2016 and we have to recognize our diversity or whatever.

The recent trend of well known, established and traditional heroes and characters suddenly changing race, gender or sexual preference just for the hell of it is pretty disappointing.

A female X wing pilot? Awesome!

An ethnic Grand Moff? Cool!

A gay bounty hunter? Sure, whatever, fine!

But if a film rendition of "Heir to the Empire" presents Grand Admiral Thrawn as an oriental lesbian... well I'll have to off myself.

This kind of assumes that the "default" position for a hero is male, and/or white to be honest. I don't see how a new story, with new characters, is an "unexpected deviation". I have zero expectation of who the protagonists are, and why, and I don't care. I personally don't care if they never show me another white male protagonist again, as long as the characters they do show me are actually written well. If they're poorly written, 2 dimensional cliches, it doesn't matter what race/gender/sexual orientation they are, they're going to suck, and I'm going to be annoyed.

Besides, an asian lesbian Thrawn might actually make that character interesting. He was terribly over the top with his "oooh, mmmm, I've studied their aaaarht, so now I know their combat strategies, mmmm, yessss." attitude. Oh, and that line was said with a Stewie Griffin accent, for extra sass. Even when i was 12 years old and reading that series, I thought he was terrible. So sure! Bring on a lesbian Thrawn! It can't be any worse than the original!

And there you go. Laugh

My comment on unexpected deviation was referring to what one would expect of an actor picked to play a role where certain traits were already established. (gender, race etc.)

I would be just as upset if Mon Mothma was suddenly a grey haired old man or Lando Calrissean turned white!

Why do you have preconceived notions about brand new characters that we know very little about?

I am not embarrassed about reacting when people have "opinions" about race, sexual orientation or gender. Maybe I came off a bit more agressive then I wanted, but I meant what I said, it`s my opinion.

As for men and women being very different, everyone is different, I`m a man and I`m not a maverick, a loner and a risk-taker. Is it so far fetched to think not all women are the same too? Even in Star Wars....

Sarah Connor and Ripley are cool, but I love Furiosa and Rey too, they are absolutely badass. And look at all the women in Game of Thrones, they are all different, all have different personalities and drives, just like the men.

I wish we could just talk about the trailer but this is just so silly and outdated and embarrassing as a fan of this genre and franchise.

Personally, I'm not bothering to see this one. I've already seen The Hunger Games, and I still want my money back. Why should I see a repeat?

I do have a problem with a female lead that is pretending to be a man. It doesn't work. Women can be action heroes, but it has to be done right. They can't just start out like Rey or Katniss, but have to have the internal struggle first that forces them into action, like with Ripley in Aliens.

This is because Men and Women are different...

<snip>

So I'm not going to see Rogue One. I've already seen it.

Wait...what? You mean every movie character and their development has to follow pre-defined gender paths? Ridiculous premise and...haven't you seen *those* movies already?

I didn't like the line or the delivery in this trailer. I didn't like the setup. (Some cool fan things, like Mon Mothma, I could look forward to, I'd love to see more of her development.)

They did some of this in the Guardians of the Galaxy trailer, which made me not want to see the movie. Boy, was I ever wrong!

I hope I'm wrong again.

Personally, I'm not bothering to see this one. I've already seen The Hunger Games, and I still want my money back. Why should I see a repeat?

I do have a problem with a female lead that is pretending to be a man. It doesn't work. Women can be action heroes, but it has to be done right. They can't just start out like Rey or Katniss, but have to have the internal struggle first that forces them into action, like with Ripley in Aliens.

This is because Men and Women are different. Men are mavericks and loners, risk-takers and adventurers in a way women aren't. Women are nurturers, caretakers, networkers, diplomats, talkers. They rely on others to provide for and protect them, and until that changes in a serious way, no woman in her right mind would willingly decide to do something that she knows could get her in trouble, or worse. Ripley, in Aliens, had to reconcile the fact that the Marines may not be able to protect her, so she had to make a change in order to protect both herself and rescue Newt. We can believe Ripley. We can't believe whoever this new chick is in Rogue One, who might as well be Rey.

What I described up there is called the Feminine Journey, which is an internal struggle, first and foremost. Masculine Journeys are external struggles, where there is a challenge to be overcome and the hero must act in order to overcome it. A feminine journey is about self-change. While you certainly can mix or swap the two to respective sexes, you have to be very careful to suspend disbelief. A woman who is a bad-ass starting out, and is the protagonist, comes off as a Mary Sue. A man who commiserates over every little thing too much comes off as a whiner. Both are either unbelievable or unlikable.

So I'm not going to see Rogue One. I've already seen it.

You got all that from a 30 second trailer?

I sure did. Hollywood has very little creativity left. They take whatever's selling right now and try to adapt it to their projects. And it works. Mainly, though, I was being a little facetious about The Hunger Games reference. I could've just as well had said Divergent or even The Force Awakens and it would work as well for my illustration.