Please let this thread die or create a new thread about your opinions on social norms, the role of women etc and then debate it out there.

We all have strong views on all of this but a Star Wars internet forum on Armada really isn't the best way to express them and debate them. Really any text only forum is a terrible way to debate opinions and any discussion quickly goes down hill into pointless banter where someone cares more about proving someone wrong and being right than they actually care about the person for whom they are talking to.

Green Knight,

Your post about if you had a blaster I would COMPLETELY do away with religion was rather heartbreaking. Heartbreaking because it makes me think your main experience with Religion is the abuse of it. Countless horrors have been made in the name of Atheism as well as the abuse of religion. The one common denominator is fallen man who seeks to pervert anything to his own benefit. I have no wish to have a debate but only point to the Cross of Jesus Christ who was put on that Cross by the "Religious" of His day that had learned how to abuse it for their benefit. I only caution you to not judge a world view by its abuse but by the actual world view it presents. Our world would be far better off with people understanding that every person they cross paths with is someone who is loved and has absolute worth not because a government or society says they have worth but because they are endowed by their creator with rights that no man can take away. I just hope you will look for yourself on who Jesus claimed to be, the evidence for it, and the world view He presents.

Not really, no. It's more about a certain Han Solo quote (from A New Hope). And blasters...well, they don't exist. So I'm good.

Oh yes the "hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a blaster" line, I didn't connect the two, my apologies. I see your satire in each statement now and quite clever I must say... wow perfect example why text is terrible for context haha

I guess the young Han Solo changed his view by the time we get to The Force Awakens.

JHOX-

In the end. I am glad that you are supportive of your female friends and family. Have a blessed day!

You go have a good one. I think I got all my rant out of me now. Thank you for your patience.

For those of you who would rather not see these sorts of discussions in a Star Wars forum - believe me, I'd rather not be having them. But I'd vastly prefer not to see a thread about an exciting new film only to be met with complaints about the inclusion of women in said film. The less people whinge about women in Star Wars, the less I will whinge about people whinging about women in Star Wars.

Back on topic - aside from the Kylo Ren-shuttle-inspired Troop Carrier, did anyone spot any other possible Armada inclusions in the trailer? I'm figuring Jyn Erso and Ben Mendelson's character as possible Officer upgrades, maybe there could be a couple of named squadrons come out of the side characters. Any other ideas?

Wow lots of Stuff being said in this thread...

Clon, what happens if an action film wants a female lead, and said female lead doesn't have kids / is not yet married? Do your "family values" mean that if a woman is not currently a wife and mother, she should only be working towards becoming a wife and mother? What if she doesn't want to? Does that mean she doesn't get to do much else?

What if she doesn't want to? Does that mean she doesn't get to do much else? What if her husband died before they could have kids - must she therefore be working towards getting a new husband? Because if she isn't, then she's going against your family values, right? Because she's doing stuff other than being a wife and mother?

What if a woman has had kids, they've grown up and moved away, but they don't have kids of their own for her to grandmother? Her life basically ends there, right?

Are you actually saying that a woman who chooses not to have a family, or a woman who can't have a family for medical reasons, is being a bad woman? Because she's not striving to be a good mother?

Are you therefore saying that I'm not contributing to society because I, as a man, am not currently looking to enter a relationship and have children? Therefore denying a woman somewhere the sperm she needs to have the children to whom she can be a good mother?

That said there is nothing more valuable then Human life and therefore the people that bring the life into the world and raise the children (who grow up to be scientists, firefighters, salesclerks etc) are capable of ContributingTHE MOST.

Y'know, you're entitled to your opinion, we all are, and you have the right to express that opinion, but come on man, this is the 21st century. The planet is already overpopulated, especially by Westerners (a Western life consumes far more in terms of land and resources than a third-world life, unfortunately), contraception as a concept has been around for... hell, I think centuries now, and women have literally been contributing to the fields of science, engineering, art, music, hell, even space travel since the 1960s.

Having women represented equally to men in mainstream media is important, because whilst it may go against your "family values", it also teaches a lot of women, young and old, around the world, that whatever kind of oppression they're currently facing isn't how it has to be. It may seem a small thing, but there are countries in the world where a woman can be physically punished by the law for being raped by a man. There are countries where women don't have a vote, can't drive, where they can be attacked for trying to learn, and whilst I doubt 'Rogue One' is going to change that on its own, if we choose to limit a woman's possibilities ourselves then we risk indirectly supporting the beliefs of those same countries or, worse, we risk becoming those countries ourselves.

This paragraph is very offensive to me that you somehow even think I even remotely implied Its Ok to VAILATE a women's Rights!?!

I think the only thing worse then **** is murder and that is only Sometimes! Anyone that treats women poorly Deserves to be Punished 100 nay a Thousand Fold the harm they caused, because Mothers and women in general are Precious Daughters of a God that loves them. Isis is EVIL Their Actions are Despicable and I believe they have forfeited their Humanity.

The last point is that I want Women to be represented equally in the media BUT they should be presented as Women, Not objects of desire, not servants, and certainly not Action heroes

The last point is that I want Women to be represented equally in the media... certainly not Action heroes

So, not equally, then? By, like, definition?

Thank you for clarifying the other points, but when you talk about "the most important thing" and "full potential" and so forth, it comes across as a value of judgement. That people not realising their "full potential", not doing "the most important thing", are inherently less valuable than those who do. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's what those words mean, and that's how it comes across. When you suggest that the morally responsible thing is for women to be mothers, and for men to support them, that means that people not falling into those roles must therefore be less moral than those who do. And sadly that's something to which I do have to object.

So I am longer going to be replying to this thread. If anyone is interested in continuing the discussion with intent to learn, Not disprove me or call me a Nazi or something, feel free to PM me I am more then happy to answer any questions or hear your viewpoint

just when I thought I couldn't facepalm any harder

Two words on women in a SciFi universe that can do all that men do: Battlestar Galactica. This series remains, in my opinion, the best approach on the topic by simply ignoring gender/sex entirely. Star Wars seems to be going for the same effect. Rey never once used her "female charms" or anything comparable to get something. There were no shots accentuating her body, nor any to hide it. She was treated totally normal, like you would a male protagonist. I hope they'll do the same in Rogue One, and as it looks, they'll do just that. If you're interested in BSG's approach more, I've written about the topic here: http://thenerdstreamera.blogspot.de/2012/09/a-vision-of-emancipated-world.html

I haven't watched BSG, so I'll take your word on their gender presentation. However, I disagree with your characterization of TFA. I agree that Rey did not do anything to gender herself. However, Finn did. He expected her to be a damsel in distress when she was being assaulted by the goons on Jakku, he grabbed her hand when they needed to flee, and he asked her if she had a 'cute boyfriend'. That was explicit gender presentation, and the story-teller clearly wanted to portray Rey opposing the gender stereotype. What remained ambiguous was the degree to which Rey understood that the way Finn was treating her was based on gender roles. Who knows, maybe she grew up without sexism on Jakku.

Rey definitely is a comment on gender roles as she declines Fynn's hand, but it's on a meta-level. Rey herself doesn't decline the help because she is making a point, she genuinely doesn't seem to understand why he does it - and neither, it should be said, does Fynn, because where the **** did this Stormtrooper learn manners like that? But that's beside the point, because the scene is there to a) tell us something about these characters b) establish the meta-level gender-norm-dodging and c) to be funny.

Two words on women in a SciFi universe that can do all that men do: Battlestar Galactica. This series remains, in my opinion, the best approach on the topic by simply ignoring gender/sex entirely. Star Wars seems to be going for the same effect. Rey never once used her "female charms" or anything comparable to get something. There were no shots accentuating her body, nor any to hide it. She was treated totally normal, like you would a male protagonist. I hope they'll do the same in Rogue One, and as it looks, they'll do just that. If you're interested in BSG's approach more, I've written about the topic here: http://thenerdstreamera.blogspot.de/2012/09/a-vision-of-emancipated-world.html

I haven't watched BSG, so I'll take your word on their gender presentation. However, I disagree with your characterization of TFA. I agree that Rey did not do anything to gender herself. However, Finn did. He expected her to be a damsel in distress when she was being assaulted by the goons on Jakku, he grabbed her hand when they needed to flee, and he asked her if she had a 'cute boyfriend'. That was explicit gender presentation, and the story-teller clearly wanted to portray Rey opposing the gender stereotype. What remained ambiguous was the degree to which Rey understood that the way Finn was treating her was based on gender roles. Who knows, maybe she grew up without sexism on Jakku.

Rey definitely is a comment on gender roles as she declines Fynn's hand, but it's on a meta-level. Rey herself doesn't decline the help because she is making a point, she genuinely doesn't seem to understand why he does it - and neither, it should be said, does Fynn, because where the **** did this Stormtrooper learn manners like that? But that's beside the point, because the scene is there to a) tell us something about these characters b) establish the meta-level gender-norm-dodging and c) to be funny.

As a guy, I think that's the problem I have with it. I don't have an issue with Rey being tough. The irritability she shows toward Fynn trying to save her gets under my skin a little bit. Men are pretty much hard wired to want to protect women. Do we have a reproductive motive for that? More than likely, you betcha. But I see no reason to hate on men for that any more than hating someone because they have to move their bowels every so often. Hating either sex for its hard wiring is the exact opposite of tolerance and understanding.

I agree with Stefan that Rey doesn't seem to 'hate' it. She doesn't seem to understand it, and it probably seems very impractical to her.

In setting that up, the storytellers are obviously making both a point and, indeed being funny about it. The way we interpret the point has to do with our opinions on the matter. ("...you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.")

I don't think the storytellers are hating on Finn at all. They're poking fun at him for either his assumption that she needs protecting, and/or that she'd appreciate having her hand held.

It is a good question about what sort of cultures stormtroopers come from, and how they're conditioned by the stormtrooper corps after they're taken. I doubt the storytellers are thinking quite that deeply on the matter.

Re: Rogue One- I don't see how Jyn could defect to the Empire, given the rest of the trailer plus the OT. Unless she dies soon after. We see her at the Yavin base with the Rebellion. If she joined the Empire, why would Vader and Tarkin later put in so much effort to learn the location of a base they should already have been told the location of? It's not like the Rebels had a lot of time to move, seeing as they'd only had the plans long enough to flee from a Star Destroyer and drop them at Tatooine by the time the gap between Rogue One and A New Hope has been closed.

Oh, a story that doesn't mirror A New Hope. Nice!

I am not nearly as drunk as DrunkTarkin for this thread.

Anyone who doesn't like women is an Islamofascist Nazi and should go hang.

Now that we've got that out of the way...

I'm going to stand by my assumption that this is Wulf Yularen. That would just be so freakin cool.

Also, how many think that this Jyn Ersa is just a restructuring of Jan Ors, and avoiding the original name because of some reason.

I'm also going with the idea that the dark cowled figure who kneels before that white beam of light thingy (holo thingy?) is Vader... however this could certainly be someone else, just not the Emperor.

Wulff Yularen had a mustache. He has a mustache in A New Hope and he had a mustache in The Clone Wars. I can think of no reason why he should suddenly cease to have a mustache between The Clone Wars and A New Hope in a visual medium that uses things like changes in facial hair to represent changes in the character (Obi-Wan, no beard, Padawan. Luke, no beard, Padawan. Obi-Wan, beard, Jedi Master. Luke, beard, Jedi Master).

As a guy, I think that's the problem I have with it. I don't have an issue with Rey being tough. The irritability she shows toward Fynn trying to save her gets under my skin a little bit. Men are pretty much hard wired to want to protect women. Do we have a reproductive motive for that? More than likely, you betcha. But I see no reason to hate on men for that any more than hating someone because they have to move their bowels every so often. Hating either sex for its hard wiring is the exact opposite of tolerance and understanding.

I don't understand how that could get under your skin.

It's not like he's holding the door open for her and she's getting annoyed by it. I mean... I assume you've gone running before. Have you ever had anyone try to hold your hand, against your will, while trying to run, let alone while trying to run for your life? If you haven't, you should try it out some time (only, of course, you don't get a choice in the matter). I bet you'd be irritated by it.

I agree with Stefan that Rey doesn't seem to 'hate' it. She doesn't seem to understand it, and it probably seems very impractical to her.

In setting that up, the storytellers are obviously making both a point and, indeed being funny about it. The way we interpret the point has to do with our opinions on the matter. ("...you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.")

I don't think the storytellers are hating on Finn at all. They're poking fun at him for either his assumption that she needs protecting, and/or that she'd appreciate having her hand held.

It is a good question about what sort of cultures stormtroopers come from, and how they're conditioned by the stormtrooper corps after they're taken. I doubt the storytellers are thinking quite that deeply on the matter.

I don't understand the concept of storytellers "hating" one of their characters. I hear this in the ASOIAF/GOT fandom quite often, and I think it's a ludicrous argument. You might not enjoy the character, or it might even be badly written, but why would it be inserted in the first place if the writers hated it? The only reason is an exec decision, but that seems unlikely in this case since Fynn is a new invention.

To return to the original argument, I wouldn't overinterpret this scene. Rey is clearly irritated by it, and on the meta-level the producers wanted to show that Rey is a "strong woman" (god, I hate this formulation) and make it funny, so it wouldn't come across as patronizing. Instead, we laugh about Fynn, which, by the way, we do often, from his first encounter with Poe to his interactions with Han Solo. There's no bigger mystery there to unravel. This is Star Wars, after all.

Could white pimp coat guy...be a Disney version of Thrawn?

Could white pimp coat guy...be a Disney version of Thrawn?

I think he's ISB rather than a Grand Admiral... Unless James Cameron has trademarked blue skinned aliens with his 'Avatar' nonsense and now Disney's afraid of the law suit. That last part is meant as sarcasm in every sense!

We need Thrawn....we need Thrawn so bad.

You know the guy is good when he's a non-human grand admiral in a Xenophobic empire...

We need Thrawn....we need Thrawn so bad.

You know the guy is good when he's a non-human grand admiral in a Xenophobic empire...

I think if they brought Thrawn into the game even I'd be tempted to try an Imperial fleet!

same!

If there was Thrawn, there would be a Jade, no? And that would no doubt cause trouble for the new continuity of TFA.

If there was Thrawn, there would be a Jade, no? And that would no doubt cause trouble for the new continuity of TFA.

¿Que?

If there was Thrawn, there would be a Jade, no? And that would no doubt cause trouble for the new continuity of TFA.

Why should there be Jade? You can have Thrawn without taking everythings from his stories.

If there was Thrawn, there would be a Jade, no? And that would no doubt cause trouble for the new continuity of TFA.

Why should there be Jade? You can have Thrawn without taking everythings from his stories.

And even then...

There's a butt-arse amount of time between Return and Force Awakens...

LOTS of Time to Introduce and kill off anyone they need...

I mean, really, if you want to talk about "introducing continuity issues" in that light, then Star Wars Rebels is almost a Roll-call of "Don't Do's" in regards to it... BUT, they're doing it... So either there is a Grand-Master Plan to deal with these things as they come up... OR, stuff is completely winged and either way, I'll Watch it... Because that means Brilliance or Train-Wreck...

"I think Clon has a feminist point of view from a certain type of feminism - cultural feminism - one that does not have much currency today, but still exists. As such, I don't find what he says as insulting, even if I fundamentally disagree with it.

I disagree with it because it is unrealistic as feminism. Feminine roles are undervalued in society, and they inherently limit women's opportunities in life, in a way that male roles in society are not as limited. Like Clon, I think that those traditional feminine roles should be valued much more than they are. But I think that as long as we reduce women to those roles because of the physical attributes with which they were born, then we're not being serious about women's agency in their own role in society. Without real choices to make, then cultural feminism places them on a pedestal that they have no choice on which to stand or not.

I have plenty more to say on the matter, but this keeps it nice and short."

That was an exceptionally thoughtful and well-considered contribution to a genuine discussion of the topic. One of the best expressions of opinion I've read this year. Thank you - I plan to share this. I just wanted you to know that you made me think today.