How does any of this apply to Jyn Erso or Rae? Really...not at all. I don't have a problem with either movie being led by a female character. I do have a problem with Rae's universal skill-level at everything, and that, I think, is Mary Sue wish fulfillment aimed squarely at satisfying politically-feminist vanity/demand, to the detriment of the movie. The sky is not falling on my chicken little, but I do think that the movie was less that what it could have been because of this. I hope Rogue One gives us a more realistic character, and I think the tone of the character and film suggests it will.

There's still a lot we don't know about Rey, and I agree that she's likeable - while she certainly is good at a lot of things, she doesn't have any arrogance to go with it.

The issue that I have is not so much that she can do all those things (though I also had my 'come on!' moments when watching the movie), but that we're taken aback by that. How many movies in the broad sci-fi/action/fantasy genres do we have leading male protagonists who can do all of that and more, and make the side-kick women next to them look like they can barely handle life?

Two words on women in a SciFi universe that can do all that men do: Battlestar Galactica. This series remains, in my opinion, the best approach on the topic by simply ignoring gender/sex entirely. Star Wars seems to be going for the same effect. Rey never once used her "female charms" or anything comparable to get something. There were no shots accentuating her body, nor any to hide it. She was treated totally normal, like you would a male protagonist. I hope they'll do the same in Rogue One, and as it looks, they'll do just that. If you're interested in BSG's approach more, I've written about the topic here: http://thenerdstreamera.blogspot.de/2012/09/a-vision-of-emancipated-world.html

Here Here Stefan! That was a great example of how to actually portray woman and men in a series...and not gum it up.

Except Saul's wife...and Number 6....that was just...odd....

HOWEVER! Disney is doing woman in the galaxy right...we'll just look past the slave leia outfit....or will we?

"Erm yeah...Lord Vader I need to hit the space toilet...with this holopad I may or may not have in my possession."

How does any of this apply to Jyn Erso or Rae? Really...not at all. I don't have a problem with either movie being led by a female character. I do have a problem with Rae's universal skill-level at everything, and that, I think, is Mary Sue wish fulfillment aimed squarely at satisfying politically-feminist vanity/demand, to the detriment of the movie. The sky is not falling on my chicken little, but I do think that the movie was less that what it could have been because of this. I hope Rogue One gives us a more realistic character, and I think the tone of the character and film suggests it will.

There's still a lot we don't know about Rey, and I agree that she's likeable - while she certainly is good at a lot of things, she doesn't have any arrogance to go with it.

The issue that I have is not so much that she can do all those things (though I also had my 'come on!' moments when watching the movie), but that we're taken aback by that. How many movies in the broad sci-fi/action/fantasy genres do we have leading male protagonists who can do all of that and more, and make the side-kick women next to them look like they can barely handle life?

I'm sure there are a lot, Mikael. And you know what? They are largely bad. Unless they are meant to be lampoon/parody, in which case they are great. Big Trouble in Little China is a great example....although Jack Burton is hardly good at every any thing

Here Here Stefan! That was a great example of how to actually portray woman and men in a series...and not gum it up.

Except Saul's wife...and Number 6....that was just...odd....

HOWEVER! Disney is doing woman in the galaxy right...we'll just look past the slave leia outfit....or will we?

"Erm yeah...Lord Vader I need to hit the space toilet...with this holopad I may or may not have in my possession."

Agreed, BSG was great.

What was wrong with Saul's wife? She was a drunk. Many people are drunks.

And Number 6...her whole point was to infiltrate humanity (or at least, Gaius Baltar) by way of sexuality. I mean don't get me wrong, the show had her on for eye candy, but at least it was justifiable eye candy.

HOWEVER! Disney is doing woman in the galaxy right...we'll just look past the slave leia outfit....or will we?

Slave Leia was done prior to Disney taking over, over 30 years ago.

Now that I've noticed it, I can't get it out of my mind.

Is it me or what, but why do the Rebel pilots in the trailer, all look like they are slightly overweight???

Now that I've noticed it, I can't get it out of my mind.

Is it me or what, but why do all the Rebel pilots in the trailer, all look like they are slightly overweight???

Piloting is Dangerous Work, so you get Extra Rations as an Incentive...

But you also spend relatively little time running from Stormtroopers Generally, so those Rations to straight to your Hips.

HOWEVER! Disney is doing woman in the galaxy right...we'll just look past the slave leia outfit....or will we?

Slave Leia was done prior to Disney taking over, over 30 years ago.

If Han Solo ever managed to get his eyesight back before Leia changed to something different, he could easily have said.

I find your lack of clothing disburbing my pants.

Here Here Stefan! That was a great example of how to actually portray woman and men in a series...and not gum it up.

Except Saul's wife...and Number 6....that was just...odd....

HOWEVER! Disney is doing woman in the galaxy right...we'll just look past the slave leia outfit....or will we?

"Erm yeah...Lord Vader I need to hit the space toilet...with this holopad I may or may not have in my possession."

Agreed, BSG was great.

What was wrong with Saul's wife? She was a drunk. Many people are drunks.

And Number 6...her whole point was to infiltrate humanity (or at least, Gaius Baltar) by way of sexuality. I mean don't get me wrong, the show had her on for eye candy, but at least it was justifiable eye candy.

Let's get real here. Ellen Tigh was "only drunk" in the beginning, and her plot arc was just fine until her death. After she was brought back for...reasons...her character was an incoherent mess.

Here Here Stefan! That was a great example of how to actually portray woman and men in a series...and not gum it up.

Except Saul's wife...and Number 6....that was just...odd....

HOWEVER! Disney is doing woman in the galaxy right...we'll just look past the slave leia outfit....or will we?

"Erm yeah...Lord Vader I need to hit the space toilet...with this holopad I may or may not have in my possession."

Agreed, BSG was great.

What was wrong with Saul's wife? She was a drunk. Many people are drunks.

And Number 6...her whole point was to infiltrate humanity (or at least, Gaius Baltar) by way of sexuality. I mean don't get me wrong, the show had her on for eye candy, but at least it was justifiable eye candy.

Let's get real here. Ellen Tigh was "only drunk" in the beginning, and her plot arc was just fine until her death. After she was brought back for...reasons...her character was an incoherent mess.

Oh yeah I agree with the mess of her inclusion as the "final five". I just didn't see that decision as intersecting with respect to how women are portrayed...it was just bad...period...as in gender-neutral bad. The only reason I mentioned her drunkeness is because Gotmittuns called her character out, above...and I thought that was what he was referring to (well, that, in tandem with her whole "real housewives of Caprica" demeanor.)

Here Here Stefan! That was a great example of how to actually portray woman and men in a series...and not gum it up.

Except Saul's wife...and Number 6....that was just...odd....

HOWEVER! Disney is doing woman in the galaxy right...we'll just look past the slave leia outfit....or will we?

"Erm yeah...Lord Vader I need to hit the space toilet...with this holopad I may or may not have in my possession."

Agreed, BSG was great.

What was wrong with Saul's wife? She was a drunk. Many people are drunks.

And Number 6...her whole point was to infiltrate humanity (or at least, Gaius Baltar) by way of sexuality. I mean don't get me wrong, the show had her on for eye candy, but at least it was justifiable eye candy.

Let's get real here. Ellen Tigh was "only drunk" in the beginning, and her plot arc was just fine until her death. After she was brought back for...reasons...her character was an incoherent mess.

Oh yeah I agree with the mess of her inclusion as the "final five". I just didn't see that decision as intersecting with respect to how women are portrayed...it was just bad...period...as in gender-neutral bad. The only reason I mentioned her drunkeness is because Gotmittuns called her character out, above...and I thought that was what he was referring to (well, that, in tandem with her whole "real housewives of Caprica" demeanor.)

"real housewives of Caprica"

Admit it, you'd watch that.

(I would)

"real housedroids of Caprica"

Wow lots of stuff in this thread.

I have a few thoughts:

Generally I am opposed to strong Female Leads in ACTION films because it can Distort Gender roles and therefore Family Values (mom should be mom and dad should be dad after all) and also I think that Mother is the MOST IMPORTANT and valuable Job achievable by Mankind (well not MEN but... You know what I mean) so Women should strive to become Good mother's and as A Man our job needs to be to Support them and protect them so sometimes these Female Leads reverse that role which IMO belittles Women and encourages them to be less then their Full potential (a.k.a. stoop to Tue level of us undeveloped men ) Anyway that's all I'm going to say on this matter

As for Ray being a Mary Sue, Generally I don't like Mary Sue characters But, this is Star Wars, and Star Wars has this All powerful Space Magic called the Force which justifies a Force sensitive being better at most things then normal people as they are basically Superhuman. And Ray is clearly a Powerful Force user so her skills are Justified IMO

Edit: I do want to add that I am ok with Occasional female leads but they shouldn't be to prevalent

Edit #2: I also must say Ray is still My favorite character in film right now

-eyes suspiciously- Can't tell if that's some sort of 'super serious' statement or deliciously close parody Clonny, darling.

I'd say Poe's still closer to a Garry Sue, but given his screen time he's probably closer to a stock character who happens to have a surprisingly adept and magnetic actor. It throws me. Either way, he, Rae, and Fin are all likable, so I've got no real complaints there.

-eyes suspiciously- Can't tell if that's some sort of 'super serious' statement or deliciously close parody Clonny, darling.

Also I guess I should mention the Trailer since that's the topic of the thread lol, I really Appreciated it, laughed at "this is a Rebellion, I rebel" and had a Terrible feeling of Impatience when I saw that ISD

Wow lots of stuff in this thread.

I have a few thoughts:

Generally I am opposed to strong Female Leads in ACTION films because it can Distort Gender roles and therefore Family Values (mom should be mom and dad should be dad after all) and also I think that Mother is the MOST IMPORTANT and valuable Job achievable by Mankind (well not MEN but... You know what I mean) so Women should strive to become Good mother's and as A Man our job needs to be to Support them and protect them so sometimes these Female Leads reverse that role which IMO belittles Women and encourages them to be less then their Full potential (a.k.a. stoop to Tue level of us undeveloped men ) Anyway that's all I'm going to say on this matter

As for Ray being a Mary Sue, Generally I don't like Mary Sue characters But, this is Star Wars, and Star Wars has this All powerful Space Magic called the Force which justifies a Force sensitive being better at most things then normal people as they are basically Superhuman. And Ray is clearly a Powerful Force user so her skills are Justified IMO

Edit: I do want to add that I am ok with Occasional female leads but they shouldn't be to prevalent

Edit #2: I also must say Ray is still My favorite character in film right now

As the son of a strong woman, I find the above insulting to my mother, who was able to be strong _and_ be a good mother.

As the son of a loving father, I find the above insulting to my father, who didn't just support my mother, but raised me and my sister alongside her.

As the husband of a strong woman, I find the above insulting to my wife, who is also able to be strong and a good mother.

As the father of two children, I find the above insulting, because it says that my only role in their lives is to support my wife and protect them all, without consideration to my role in raising my children.

As the father of a young girl, I find the above insulting to my daughter, because it implies the only thing she should ever strive to be is a mother, and nothing else (and somehow calls that her "Full potential", despite ignoring her potential to be even more than that).

Sir, your family values are clearly very different from mine. And that is all I shall have to say on this matter.

'Spose it takes all kinds. I'm just at the complete other end of the spectrum, but C'est la vie, eh?

While I'm not quite as enthralled as many seem to be about the ISD-I (it's grand, and I'd love a conversion kit, don't get me wrong), I'm really looking forward to what they can do cinematographically. This is especially true with the AT-AT's and the ISD's who had problems with illustrating proper scale with other objects in the past. There's a lot of intriguing shots and a certain gritty tone that is a fresh and appealing glimpse inside the setting. I'll admit, it's the AT-AT assault that's catching my attention most right now. I like big robots. Of course, not Terra Toppa Tengan Gurran Lagann big, because that's just ridiculous.

Post Scriptum: I'm not insulted or trying to be an instigator. Though I strongly identify with Freeptop's base sentiment, even it's in a vacuum and I have no stake in the matter. I happen to think that people's views are mostly a product of experience and culture. Thus, it's hard to be 'wrong' and easy to be different.

As the son of a strong woman, I find the above insulting to my mother, who was able to be strong _and_ be a good mother.

.

As the son of a loving father, I find the above insulting to my father, who didn't just support my mother, but raised me and my sister alongside her.

As the husband of a strong woman, I find the above insulting to my wife, who is also able to be strong and a good mother.

As the father of two children, I find the above insulting, because it says that my only role in their lives is to support my wife and protect them all, without consideration to my role in raising my children.

As the father of a young girl, I find the above insulting to my daughter, because it implies the only thing she should ever strive to be is a mother, and nothing else (and somehow calls that her "Full potential", despite ignoring her potential to be even more than that).

Two words on women in a SciFi universe that can do all that men do: Battlestar Galactica. This series remains, in my opinion, the best approach on the topic by simply ignoring gender/sex entirely. Star Wars seems to be going for the same effect. Rey never once used her "female charms" or anything comparable to get something. There were no shots accentuating her body, nor any to hide it. She was treated totally normal, like you would a male protagonist. I hope they'll do the same in Rogue One, and as it looks, they'll do just that. If you're interested in BSG's approach more, I've written about the topic here: http://thenerdstreamera.blogspot.de/2012/09/a-vision-of-emancipated-world.html

I haven't watched BSG, so I'll take your word on their gender presentation. However, I disagree with your characterization of TFA. I agree that Rey did not do anything to gender herself. However, Finn did. He expected her to be a damsel in distress when she was being assaulted by the goons on Jakku, he grabbed her hand when they needed to flee, and he asked her if she had a 'cute boyfriend'. That was explicit gender presentation, and the story-teller clearly wanted to portray Rey opposing the gender stereotype. What remained ambiguous was the degree to which Rey understood that the way Finn was treating her was based on gender roles. Who knows, maybe she grew up without sexism on Jakku.

Generally I am opposed to strong Female Leads in ACTION films because it can Distort Gender roles and therefore Family Values (mom should be mom and dad should be dad after all) and also I think that Mother is the MOST IMPORTANT and valuable Job achievable by Mankind (well not MEN but... You know what I mean) so Women should strive to become Good mother's and as A Man our job needs to be to Support them and protect them so sometimes these Female Leads reverse that role which IMO belittles Women and encourages them to be less then their Full potential (a.k.a. stoop to Tue level of us undeveloped men ) Anyway that's all I'm going to say on this matter

As for Ray being a Mary Sue, Generally I don't like Mary Sue characters But, this is Star Wars, and Star Wars has this All powerful Space Magic called the Force which justifies a Force sensitive being better at most things then normal people as they are basically Superhuman. And Ray is clearly a Powerful Force user so her skills are Justified IMO

Edit: I do want to add that I am ok with Occasional female leads but they shouldn't be to prevalent

Edit #2: I also must say Ray is still My favorite character in film right now

As the son of a strong woman, I find the above insulting to my mother, who was able to be strong _and_ be a good mother.

As the son of a loving father, I find the above insulting to my father, who didn't just support my mother, but raised me and my sister alongside her.

As the husband of a strong woman, I find the above insulting to my wife, who is also able to be strong and a good mother.

As the father of two children, I find the above insulting, because it says that my only role in their lives is to support my wife and protect them all, without consideration to my role in raising my children.

As the father of a young girl, I find the above insulting to my daughter, because it implies the only thing she should ever strive to be is a mother, and nothing else (and somehow calls that her "Full potential", despite ignoring her potential to be even more than that).

Sir, your family values are clearly very different from mine. And that is all I shall have to say on this matter.

I think Clon has a feminist point of view from a certain type of feminism - cultural feminism - one that does not have much currency today, but still exists. As such, I don't find what he says as insulting, even if I fundamentally disagree with it.

I disagree with it because it is unrealistic as feminism. Feminine roles are undervalued in society, and they inherently limit women's opportunities in life, in a way that male roles in society are not as limited. Like Clon, I think that those traditional feminine roles should be valued much more than they are. But I think that as long as we reduce women to those roles because of the physical attributes with which they were born, then we're not being serious about women's agency in their own role in society. Without real choices to make, then cultural feminism places them on a pedestal that they have no choice on which to stand or not.

I have plenty more to say on the matter, but this keeps it nice and short.

Man, this thread used to be cool...

Now its all heavy and stuff...

(Go right ahead, by the Way... I just have nothing productive to add and am feeling a little punchy )

I think Clon has a feminist point of view from a certain type of feminism - cultural feminism - one that does not have much currency today, but still exists. As such, I don't find what he says as insulting, even if I fundamentally disagree with it.

I disagree with it because it is unrealistic as feminism. Feminine roles are undervalued in society, and they inherently limit women's opportunities in life, in a way that male roles in society are not as limited. Like Clon, I think that those traditional feminine roles should be valued much more than they are. But I think that as long as we reduce women to those roles because of the physical attributes with which they were born, then we're not being serious about women's agency in their own role in society. Without real choices to make, then cultural feminism places them on a pedestal that they have no choice on which to stand or not.

I have plenty more to say on the matter, but this keeps it nice and short.

Man, this thread used to be cool...

Now its all heavy and stuff...

(Go right ahead, by the Way... I just have nothing productive to add and am feeling a little punchy )

We could choose to be even more insulted and start questioning one another's character. Then we can proceed to a full-scale flame war, in which we report one another to the mods, and get this thread locked or even deleted.

I know that FFG probably won't care as long as we keep it civil, but they've locked topics like this in the past.

That said, I think it's an important conversation to have in society. As forum friends we can choose to disagree as friends and learn from one another's point of view rather than vilifying one another as seems to be the norm in American social discourse these days.

Man, this thread used to be cool...

Now its all heavy and stuff...

(Go right ahead, by the Way... I just have nothing productive to add and am feeling a little punchy )

We could choose to be even more insulted and start questioning one another's character. Then we can proceed to a full-scale flame war, in which we report one another to the mods, and get this thread locked or even deleted.

I know that FFG probably won't care as long as we keep it civil, but they've locked topics like this in the past.

That said, I think it's an important conversation to have in society. As forum friends we can choose to disagree as friends and learn from one another's point of view rather than vilifying one another as seems to be the norm in American social discourse these days.

By no means did I intend to belittle the conversation.

Only make an amusing anecdote based on the fact that, I don't have anything productive to add.

I facepalmed so hard just now.......