NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY WOULD YOU BRING THAT BACK UP? WE JUST GOT BACK ON TRACK!

Squeezing the trigger, whether it's on a small arm or weapon console of a fighter is a very very small part of war and combat.

Indeed it is. More than anything will is everything in modern warfare: the will to crawl through C-wire, the will to deal with sh*tty conditions for days at a time, the will to stay and fight when you're being shelled or shot at. That's why basic training is 90% mind games and 10% physical. If you found basic training to be physically draining, you probably weren't in good shape. It's mentally draining.

Or, maybe you joined the Army :-)

On a more serious note, I don't disagree with your point about the importance of "will". I do, however, find it to be a little rhetorically useless. "Will" is important and indeed required in almost all human endeavors that are even within the scope of human achievability. But "will" doesn't magically kick-in at the moment of truth like most movies would have us believe. It's also not a "source attribute". Willpower, manifesting on the battlefield, is, I'm sure you know because you're airborne, the result of lots of stuff, including one's own training, the observance of similar training in one's comrades (a mechanic which builds self-confidence and inter-unit confidence). It's also a response to one's societal responsibilities. Where you and I will most likely disagree is that those societal responsibilities, specifically the sex-based ones, are not entirely artificial and constructed in nature. Its my experience and observation that those societal responsibilities which (tangentally or otherwise) touch on gender and sex, are based not on my "pretty blatant sexist bull", but rather in sexual dimorphism, manifesting itself both physically and psychologically in many advanced species, not the least of which are humans.

Here's a more appropriate rhetorical anecdote I like to ask/present to all my wife's girl-power friends when they ask me about my time in the Marine Corps and why I don't think women should be in it.

A man goes without a shower for 4 days: vacation.

A woman goes without a shower for 4 days: torture.

Discuss.

Pretty blatant sexist bull. Frankly, I don't know a single man who actually likes going without a shower for 4 days. I've done it in basic, OCS, and any number of field training exercises. Nobody actually likes it. Congratulations on being the freak that hates hygiene. This goes back to will, though. If you have the will to endure that, you belong. If you don't, then you don't belong. I've served with women who deal with the same exact conditions and do just as fine as the men. Hell, they probably bitched about it less. I imagine they might have been afraid of validating this exact statement. Now, are most women societally conditioned to care too much about their looks to want to deal with extended stays in the field? You better believe it. My wife would have no business in the military. But that's her. In no way is that indicative of all women as your statement implies. I've served with many exceptions to your rule.

Oh my god, "sexist bull"...seriously, seriously, is that the extent of what you can see/observe about the conversation? It's not "sexist bull". It's an anecdote (which I stated, nothing more, nothing less), used to illustrate a difference between men and women. "Freak that hates hygiene"? Seriously? No, of course, for the record, I don't like going 4 days without a shower. My experience, however, has been that men suffer that more readily than women do; not that women CAN'T do it (ie torture), and that men LOVE it (ie vacation) - that's hyperbole used to keep the conversation light and people smiling instead of screaming at each other. I would have hoped you could see that. Now one could surely argue that those stereotypical responses come down to "societal conditioning". Maybe that is true....but can you at least submit that the aforementioned "societal conditioning" might be the complicated end of a long series of cause-and-affect that starts with physical and psychological dimorphism and not "blatant sexist bull!!" or <patriarchy> In *every* hump I have been on in the Marine Cops, ALL (yes, ALL, as in, every single one) of the women lagged behind the bulk of the company by an observable amount. There were, also, in fairness, about 20% males who "fell back" as well. That's not sexism. That's my observable reality. Such experiences have shaped my worldview.

How does any of this apply to Jyn Erso or Rae? Really...not at all. I don't have a problem with either movie being led by a female character. I do have a problem with Rae's universal skill-level at everything, and that, I think, is Mary Sue wish fulfillment aimed squarely at satisfying politically-feminist vanity/demand, to the detriment of the movie. The sky is not falling on my chicken little, but I do think that the movie was less that what it could have been because of this. I hope Rogue One gives us a more realistic character, and I think the tone of the character and film suggests it will.

Man can do anything: "What a bad-ass". Woman can do anything: "What a bunch of bull feminist-appeasing propaganda."

Yes, it is pretty blatant sexism. Go ahead and look it up.

And while you're at it you seriously need to look up the term "observational bias." You have it in SPADES, you ****** canoe (yes I'm going to insult you, get over it, you know, like a man would do /s). Gender roles are strictly a societal construct. While the median level of raw strength for men is higher than that of women, any individual woman can be equally more or less strong than any man she might be compared to. It's about the individual. What? Women, conditioned from birth to hate sports and expect to stay home and raise babies developed their musculature a little slower? Oh, and yeah, estrogen, or more appropriately a lack of testosterone, does make it more difficult to put on muscle. It happens slower, with a lower peak possibility. Again, that does not imply weakness or lack of ability in any individual woman.

I'm a 14+ year vet, and I can tell you that, as an MP, I've served with some of the most bad-ass women you can even imagine meeting, let alone going on a combat deployment with. If any of them had heard you saying this bull they'd have slapped you in to next Tuesday. Did they ***** about the conditions when we were living in GP's in the sand? **** yeah. Were they any worse about it than the men, **** no.

The funny thing is that there are more differences among women and among men than there are between the two. And yes, most of the crap we have set up and call a "system"

To say that these things are just natural states of being would be akin to saying that cannibalism is against human nature, history and sociology prove you wrong on both counts.

It's late and this is a bit ramble-esque. I don't even think I'm making sense to myself. But bottom line, yes your crap, at least up to page 8, is sexist AF, no matter what you base it on.

More to come later.

Signed,

Pretty-much-the-only-woman-who-seems-to-play-this-damned=game-or-post.

Well said, except for the insult.

*bows and moves quietly out of the way

... you ****** canoe...

^{What got censored?}

Oh f....me.

Star wars grew up!!!

Random thoughts/hopes:

Trailer looks great and not a lightsaber in sight!

Why are they running TOWARDS the AT-ATs? Do they have a plan?? What could possibly be WORSE that would compel a person to run away from it but TOWARDS many AT-ATs???

You know Vader is going to appear, right? RIGHT!?

My Hope/Prediction: Team of heroes is going to hero it up and steal the plans by the end of Act II and we KNOW who goes looking for those plans, y'all. VADER! So Vader shows up and mercilessly decimates all of our heroic B-characters (sad!) and Jyn Erso is totes "You on your own." and steals a single-seat tie fighter and bugs out leaving everyone else to die. She's on NO ONE'S team, sir.

(snip)

Why are they running TOWARDS the AT-ATs? Do they have a plan?? What could possibly be WORSE that would compel a person to run away from it but TOWARDS many AT-ATs? (snip)

I mean, AT-ATs have a low rate of fire, so I would rather run towards something that has a low rate of fire and has a low chance of hitting me, than run towards a stormtrooper squad with a high rate of fire and a great chance of hitting me.

... a stormtrooper squad with a high rate of fire and a great chance of hitting me.

... a stormtrooper squad with... a great chance of hitting me.

... a great chance of hitting me.

Man can do anything: "What a bad-ass". Woman can do anything: "What a bunch of bull feminist-appeasing propaganda."

Yes, it is pretty blatant sexism. Go ahead and look it up.

Well it's a good thing I didn't say that, then, isn't it! Whew! And looking back...I don't think anyone else did either.

Watching an entire company's worth of WM's fall behind on a hump is actually the exact opposite of observation bias. By the way...canoe? Wut?

Oh you're an MP? Now I'm terrified. Cops are some of the biggest blowhard crybabies on the planet (Both sexes, not just women) and military cops are at the top of the heap of posturing touch-holes. Yeah, they would have slapped me because as both women and cops they have the 1-2 combo of being allowed to initiate assault against anyone they like without facing any ramifications. You and your squadron of jackboot fem-thugs are so tough. Please.

If two things, which are different in every way EXCEPT for their sex are then compared to two things which are different in every way INCLUDING their sex, isn't the second comparison more different than the first?

To say that these things are just natural states of being would be akin to saying that cannibalism is against human nature, history and sociology prove you wrong on both counts.

Wait...what? Let me get this straight

Me saying "Men's and Women's societal gender roles are not arbitrary or meant to oppress one group or the other, and have largely grown out of the physiological and psychological differences inherent to their sex and indicative of the established scientific precept of sexual dimorphism."

is "akin" to saying

"Cannibalism is against human nature".

Can you, seriously, explain that to me?

No, you're not making sense. You're crap, you're full of crap, and all your girl commandoes in your MP platoon are crap. If you didn't have a bunch of men backing you up, you wouldn't even dream of going off to war with a bunch of ladyfriends. You know it, I know it, so drop the pretenses, ok?

Fortunately, in gaming, nobody actually gives a crap if you're a woman. Are you good at the game?

So I guess this topic settles my curiosity of whether or not we can curse on these forums...

snip, lots of stuff and insults

snip, lots of stuff and insults

I think it would be Best to Tone it Down a little bit, insulting her back won't get anything Accomplished.

Man, some day, someone is going to explain to me why you and Dras randomly capitalize words in the middle of your sentences.

snip, lots of stuff and insults

I think it would be Best to Tone it Down a little bit, insulting her back won't get anything Accomplished.

Man, some day, someone is going to explain to me why you and Dras randomly capitalize words in the middle of your sentences.

I have explained it previously, in another thread.

Its your job to find it now.

Nah.. the mystery is probably better than the explanation.

Nah.. the mystery is probably better than the explanation.

It is.

But here it is, anyway.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/215867-just-a-friendly-reminder/#entry2144762

I mean, I can clear it up for me at least, but Clontroper5 will remain a mystery until such time as he decides to explain himself

Nice. I actually work in phone/ticket support myself. We usually bold our important points. Not like customers read it anyway...

Our system delivered the messages we typed as SMS to phones, so there was no bold, italic, etc. The only emphasis that could be placed was either single Capital or ALL CAPS... So, y'know... Its really hard to break that habit when you are literally doing it thousands of times a day...

(22 sec call average, continual, over an 8 hour shift... When you're a dictation typist like I was, your call time was more like ~15 second average).

Nah.. the mystery is probably better than the explanation.

It is.

But here it is, anyway.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/215867-just-a-friendly-reminder/#entry2144762

I mean, I can clear it up for me at least, but Clontroper5 will remain a mystery until such time as he decides to explain himself

A)Caps are the Only Form of Emphasis available to me

B) my phone does random things

Well, I guess I'll allow these explanations, but just this one time...

Btw, it was d-o-u-c-h-e canoe

Man can do anything: "What a bad-ass". Woman can do anything: "What a bunch of bull feminist-appeasing propaganda."

Yes, it is pretty blatant sexism. Go ahead and look it up.

Well it's a good thing I didn't say that, then, isn't it! Whew! And looking back...I don't think anyone else did either.

-Actually, it did get said, in essence. It was complained that Ray was a "Mary-Sue". I was pointing out that tons of male characters, including in this very franchise, fit that bill, but they don't get bitched about as some male agenda, especially not by men. It happens with a woman character and suddenly SJW's are ruining movies.

And while you're at it you seriously need to look up the term "observational bias." You have it in SPADES, you ****** canoe (yes I'm going to insult you, get over it, you know, like a man would do /s). Gender roles are strictly a societal construct. While the median level of raw strength for men is higher than that of women, any individual woman can be equally more or less strong than any man she might be compared to. It's about the individual. What? Women, conditioned from birth to hate sports and expect to stay home and raise babies developed their musculature a little slower? Oh, and yeah, estrogen, or more appropriately a lack of testosterone, does make it more difficult to put on muscle. It happens slower, with a lower peak possibility. Again, that does not imply weakness or lack of ability in any individual woman.

Watching an entire company's worth of WM's fall behind on a hump is actually the exact opposite of observation bias. By the way...canoe? Wut?

-Actually, it's the DEFINITION of observational bias (which works in two ways). "I saw it once, so it must be universally true." The other half of that is that when you expect to see something, when you have a preconceived notion, you subconsciously look for it, and take more note of it when you do see it; plus you tend more to disregard those counter-proofs you do encounter. Take a logic course.

-and it was D-O-U-C-H-E canoe.

I'm a 14+ year vet, and I can tell you that, as an MP, I've served with some of the most bad-ass women you can even imagine meeting, let alone going on a combat deployment with. If any of them had heard you saying this bull they'd have slapped you in to next Tuesday. Did they ***** about the conditions when we were living in GP's in the sand? **** yeah. Were they any worse about it than the men, **** no.

Oh you're an MP? Now I'm terrified. Cops are some of the biggest blowhard crybabies on the planet (Both sexes, not just women) and military cops are at the top of the heap of posturing touch-holes. Yeah, they would have slapped me because as both women and cops they have the 1-2 combo of being allowed to initiate assault against anyone they like without facing any ramifications. You and your squadron of jackboot fem-thugs are so tough. Please.

-Just because you got arrested, probably for acting like an ass-hat, doesn't mean MP's are "Jack-booted thugs". Yeah, we're the ones who break up the parties and write tickets, we're the ones who cuff your dumb-ass when you do something really dumb, and that makes us the bad guys to most. There are bad cops just like there are bad [insert profession here]. There are doctors that let some people die on purpose, that doesn't make all doctors evil. Also, MP's aren't like civilian cops. Since even a lowly Specialist often has to stand up to Sergeants Major, we are scrutinized heavier than just about anyone (including by our own NCO's).

-Up until VERY recently MP was the closest a female soldier could get to combat arms, so we got the most bad-assed of the women (plus a few of the not so bad-assed, but the proportion of awesome females was higher than it was for the men, in both the units I've been in). You know the old joke that MP stands for "Multi-purpose"? It's true. The average MP company is quite a bit heavier armed than the average MP unit, we just don't specialize in fire-and-maneuver quite as much, plus we all get trucks :-). Gotta have somewhere to mount that Mk19!

- Also, look up the term "Ad-hominem argument". Seriously, you need a **** logic course. I'm sure your local comm. college offers one. Go use your GI-Bill.

The funny thing is that there are more differences among women and among men than there are between the two. And yes, most of the crap we have set up and call a "system"

If two things, which are different in every way EXCEPT for their sex are then compared to two things which are different in every way INCLUDING their sex, isn't the second comparison more different than the first?

-You are starting from the assumption that men and women have NOTHING in common, that any man compared to any woman will have zero similar traits, interests, abilities, strengths, weaknesses, etc, etc. The two spectra that cover women, and that cover men, overlap in more places than they don't. After that logic class take a gender relations course.

To say that these things are just natural states of being would be akin to saying that cannibalism is against human nature, history and sociology prove you wrong on both counts.

Wait...what? Let me get this straight

Me saying "Men's and Women's societal gender roles are not arbitrary or meant to oppress one group or the other, and have largely grown out of the physiological and psychological differences inherent to their sex and indicative of the established scientific precept of sexual dimorphism."

is "akin" to saying

"Cannibalism is against human nature".

Can you, seriously, explain that to me?

-I can, and I'll use small words. Well, I won't, but you can google it.

- Because we are raised from birth to believe that cannibalism is a horrendous, beastly practice, we internalize certain reactions to it. This goes to the point that many people come to believe that it is simply "human nature". It isn't. Humans have practiced cannibalism for far longer than we haven't. We have also gotten that way about gender and sex. Since we as a society have believed something for a few millenniums, and since we are raised from birth inundated with gender/sex "norms" (jokes, insults, peer pressure, family pressure, and just general assumptions built in to our language), we have come to believe that it is just "human nature" for the roles assigned to each gender to exist.

It's late and this is a bit ramble-esque. I don't even think I'm making sense to myself. But bottom line, yes your crap, at least up to page 8, is sexist AF, no matter what you base it on.

More to come later.

Signed,

Pretty-much-the-only-woman-who-seems-to-play-this-damned=game-or-post.

No, you're not making sense. You're crap, you're full of crap, and all your girl commandoes in your MP platoon are crap. If you didn't have a bunch of men backing you up, you wouldn't even dream of going off to war with a bunch of ladyfriends. You know it, I know it, so drop the pretenses, ok?

-I **** sure would have preferred the women in my unit on any convoy or other action to 98% of the men. I've served alongside infantry, drill sergeants, armor, artillery, and a whole host of other "bad-asses", and the only one who beat most of those women for sheer soldier awesomeness was the former operator I served with briefly.

Fortunately, in gaming, nobody actually gives a crap if you're a woman. Are you good at the game?

-Yeah, spend a few years in the gaming community as a woman, then come back and tell me nobody gives a crap.

-"Are you good at the game?" What the f u c k does it matter?!? I don't need to be good at **** for my opinion to matter. I am educated, strong, and don't take **** off of anybody. I'm not looking for your approval, I'm just playin' whack-a-sexist here, so my favorite game doesn't get infested with that scum.

Also, I give a crap if I am a woman, and especially when I'm the ONLY woman in the room with dice in her hand at a 30+ person tournament. That **** sucks.

I wonder if I'm going to end up with >0 warning points for these posts? :-)

JHOX-

In the end. I am glad that you are supportive of your female friends and family. Have a blessed day!

You go have a good one. I think I got all my rant out of me now. Thank you for your patience.

For those of you who would rather not see these sorts of discussions in a Star Wars forum - believe me, I'd rather not be having them. But I'd vastly prefer not to see a thread about an exciting new film only to be met with complaints about the inclusion of women in said film. The less people whinge about women in Star Wars, the less I will whinge about people whinging about women in Star Wars.

Back on topic - aside from the Kylo Ren-shuttle-inspired Troop Carrier, did anyone spot any other possible Armada inclusions in the trailer? I'm figuring Jyn Erso and Ben Mendelson's character as possible Officer upgrades, maybe there could be a couple of named squadrons come out of the side characters. Any other ideas?

(Apparently there's an emoticon limit. What is it?)