Has anyone had success with these two as straight up gunboats? I'm wanting to run an imperial ship list without relying on bombers and I'm trying to fit avenger and a Vic or two in (preferably a Vic 2) but I can't figure out how to do it. They just get so expensive fast!

When I run VSDs, I run them as VSD-Is.

The problem with VSD-IIs is you're spending 12 points to convert black dice to blue and convert an ordnance upgrade slot to an ion cannon slot. It seems like a good idea until you look at the range stick and see that blue dice have about +50% range over black dice rather than +100% as is often assumed. Given how slow/unmaneuverable VSDs are, you're generally either getting in long-ranged attacks only (you can't force a confrontation) or you're getting in short-ranged attacks (the enemy is coming right at you or you managed to corner him). I found it was pretty rare to get a VSD into medium range, making the expensive VSD-II upgrade even less worthwhile.

Anyways, the VSD-I has a lot of everything (dice, hull, decent shields) for its points. The main downside is its awful speed/maneuverability. I've found stacking upgrades on the VSD-I doesn't tend to substantially improve its offensive power and doesn't fix its fundamental flaw and thus it's usually not points well spent. The more ships you can bring with your fleet to support the VSD and guard its flank (and encourage enemies to accept facing off with a VSD as the lesser evil). Therefore I heartily recommend leaving VSDs as naked as possible* if you intend to use them as gunships. The main other variant would be carriers, which I'd recommend (Boosted Comms or Expanded Hangar Bays) + Flight Controllers and call it a day.

In terms of Avenger, I assume you mean the ISD title? It works well with a fleet of ships that want to go early (black dice ships, particularly Demolisher) or when set up with a separate Overload Pulse ship (usually a Raider-II).

I would also like to hear about Avenger having any successful use outside of the overload pulse combo... I think Avenger might be good in a list alongside a small ryhmer ball with a squadron command... the squads tempt the target to use its defense tokens, but if they do, they won't work against the much more dangerous front arc of avenger...

You'd be surprised on how much you'd miss VSD-IIs though. I had to let a GSD limp away with one hit point because I couldn't bring more dice to bear on him out of a VSD-I. That blue die would have been nice to have.

ISD-VSD-VSD with avenger was my favorite archetype list until I realized how easy it was to concentrate and punch out the VSD-IIs. Lose 2 ships and you're down to 1 activation. I've been struggling to find a list I'm happy with ever since.

Now it seems to be ISDII, VSDII, VSDI, VSDI, with Motti. All the hull!

I would also like to hear about Avenger having any successful use outside of the overload pulse combo... I think Avenger might be good in a list alongside a small ryhmer ball with a squadron command... the squads tempt the target to use its defense tokens, but if they do, they won't work against the much more dangerous front arc of avenger...

I've heard people contemplate running Avenger as a carrier for the reasons you mentioned - the Rhymerball gets thrown at you but you realize that spending tokens ends poorly for you once the ISD gets around to slugging. I just don't have any experiential information to back up if that was a good idea or not.

I'm personally not a big fan of the Overload Pulse combination. It's iffy and very reliant upon you activating your ships in the right order at the right target. Good opponents will see it coming a mile away and hopefully not let you pull it off. A local Imperial player has taken to running an Avenger ISD-II with Screed and Overload Pulse and he does his damndest to double-arc things. A side arc blue crit + Avenger front salvo is hypothetically pretty fierce but difficult to set up. It does mean that no sane human being will EVER choose Advanced Gunnery against that fleet, though...

You'd be surprised on how much you'd miss VSD-IIs though. I had to let a GSD limp away with one hit point because I couldn't bring more dice to bear on him out of a VSD-I. That blue die would have been nice to have.

ISD-VSD-VSD with avenger was my favorite archetype list until I realized how easy it was to concentrate and punch out the VSD-IIs. Lose 2 ships and you're down to 1 activation. I've been struggling to find a list I'm happy with ever since.

Now it seems to be ISDII, VSDII, VSDI, VSDI, with Motti. All the hull!

See, I used to run VSD-IIs as my default VSD. Then someone made points similar to the ones I made above and I started paying attention to how often I got blue dice when I wouldn't have received black dice. It happened very rarely. Sure, it will happen sometimes when you REALLY wish you had those blue dice, but it's been a long time since I found myself wishing I had scraped together 12 more points for a VSD-II instead of a VSD-I.

played avenger VSD2 2x raiders tonight. screed, VSDs and Raider2s had Overload Pulses.

It was against Riekaan Reeekan whatever.

So raiders only triggered OLP twice before being blown up. When they did, the ISD 1 shot the ship. VSD OLP'd 2 ships but i could only finish 1 off. I did win 6/4 7-3 due to contested outpost and I need to finetune and play it better admittedly.

Thoughts are, do i drop the VSD for 2 more raiders..... or 1 raider and some light squadron support.

other things I noticed.

Avenger really hurts ships using turbolaser reroutes to get big red attack dice (like salvation and cr90s). OLPs also make them permantely lose the evade token much sooner than expected.

Kinda want motti over screed but the list has some good potential and may even look at 2x ISD, 2x Raider variant.

It has legs, it just needs to be flushed out.

i was thinking this, for a non pulse avenger...

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Ozzel

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)
- Avenger ( 5 points)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)
- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
4 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 36 points)

other things I noticed.

Avenger really hurts ships using turbolaser reroutes to get big red attack dice (like salvation and cr90s). OLPs also make them permantely lose the evade token much sooner than expected.

this is interesting.. is it ever worth it just to run a few pulses, maybe even with Avenger not even in the list, just to force your opponents defense tokens into a tough spot?

Yeah, I like avenger in general, it's like imperial defiance, you don't need olp to set it up, just some other threatening ships. Maybe I just have a bad taste in my mouth from vsd 1s after I had to take second player 3 times with them, it's really hard to set them up as second player...maybe I should give avenger and 2 VSDs with a good enough bid?

I like to run an isd, vsd and gladiator, doesn't leave much for squads but the results are worth it. It's a lot of points but run dominator on a vsd 2 with xi7 and sw7 in the front of an imperial spear conga. It's job is to exhaust as many tokens as possible. Meanwhile, avenger follows right behind dominator(watch that the isd's huge nose doesn't hit the vsd's bridge) and puts in the real damage. I like to put xx9's on her with a gunnery team and watch the rebels burn. The final piece is the gladiator running demolisher, acm and engine techs, letting it squeeze in and finish anything left or further weaken a ship before avenger does her magic. Screed or Vader are the best choices for this build but motti is good to if you fear for your hull. Generally I'll try to squeeze in howl runner and a few ties as well.

Dominator rarely makes it thru alive but when the points are totaled it usually pays off

Black dice are where the fun is....Victory 1's are hilarious when you get a front arc off.

my ISD has gunnery team, so with Contested Outpost, Opening Salvo, and Dangerous Territory, I will typically be playing Contested Outpost.

I know where they are coming and they know where I am going. The goal is to OLP 2+ ships a turn with raiders, let the VSD open up on one, and then the gunnery team ISD potentially just kill 2 ships a turn. its brutally effective if i can land OLPs. I may gunnery team the VSD.

my List

ISD2 - Screed, SW-7s, Avenger, Support Officer, Elec Counter Measures, Gunnery Team, SW-7s,

Raider 2 - Overload Pulse

Raider 2 - Overload Pulse

Victory 2 - H9 Turbolasers, Overload Pulse, Quad Laser Turrets, Warlord

Lets talk about the Vic. This list started as, how do i bring the vic back. This vic auto damages any squadron it shoots with warlord and H9s..... now give it counter 1 and if you can either kill rhymer, or are facing rebels this ship is extremely dangerous to enemy squadrons. its 114pts and I kinda wanna drop elec counter measures for gunnery team on it but we will see.

This isnt my favorite list to play but its a good alternative to my rhymer ball crutch

You'd be surprised on how much you'd miss VSD-IIs though. I had to let a GSD limp away with one hit point because I couldn't bring more dice to bear on him out of a VSD-I. That blue die would have been nice to have.

ISD-VSD-VSD with avenger was my favorite archetype list until I realized how easy it was to concentrate and punch out the VSD-IIs. Lose 2 ships and you're down to 1 activation. I've been struggling to find a list I'm happy with ever since.

Now it seems to be ISDII, VSDII, VSDI, VSDI, with Motti. All the hull!

Why not Motti ISD2, IDS1, VSD1, VSD1

Why not Motti VSD1, VSD1, VSD1, VSD1, VSD1? Fifty hull. Have fun!

I don't like no squadron list, but under the parameters you give:

ISD II

Avenger

X-17

NK-7

ECM

Screed

2x VSDII

Intel officer

Gunnery team

Overload pulse

X-17

-----------

400 point even

That would be killer with 100 more points of squadrons

Why not Motti VSD1, VSD1, VSD1, VSD1, VSD1? Fifty hull. Have fun!

Did it at a Store Championships.

Glad I did it. It made me a better player.

Never doing it again.

Why not Motti VSD1, VSD1, VSD1, VSD1, VSD1? Fifty hull. Have fun!

Did it at a Store Championships.

Glad I did it. It made me a better player.

Never doing it again.

So. . .how did it go?

First Game was against the eventual Winner... 5 Ackbar Corvettes and a MC30.

Went Terrible, as I barely got shots, and the shots I got, completely failed on Dice.

Second Game, was fantastic. Double AF plus Vette and Squadrons... he had Fleet Ambush in his Fleet. I started with 3 Ships in Red-Dice Range and 2 more to catch anyone who tried to leapfrog... Only Dice failed me here, but still won by an easy margin. Had 2-3 times where, one more positive dice, and it would have ended in a 9-1 instead.

Third Game, well, the third game was a close loss, but that was mostly due to game circumstance, and had I been able to actually play, would have been even better...

5 Vics sound tough, but you'll lose 2-3 easily, and somtimes 3-4 just as quickly...

You have absolutely 0 Dice mitigation, and 90% of the time, you're relying on Red Dice, because Black just doesn't happen.

You need to absolutely prioritise Nav and abuse the hell out of it... Repairing is a secondary concern, and Concentrate Fire just doens't happen.