17 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:
Different thing. One deals with an observed action (what people will do, an observable fact) the other deals with an insinuation of motive and emotional state that the person making the statement cannot know ("some people are only happy if" ) .
But nice try.
How, then, should we interpret an outright statement characterizing another's motives and meaning, even in the face of the "accused" telling you you're wrong?
26 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:We never see Leia having a vision of another place or time, that doesn't involve her
romanticsibling link to Luke (that he needs help on Bespin, the fact that he made it off DS2...) We have no reason to conclude she has any "farseeing" ability.
...what? Extrasensory perception is not a sign of Force perceptions? That's not an argument, that's a pretzel.
I rematched Rogue One...again. Man the music is really great. I love the new Imperial theme which I look forward to hearing on Rebels next season.
There are so many truly beautiful moments throughout the film. For something so commercial as Star wars its really surprising, if only because of the Marvel movies, to see how fresh and different and dare I say experimental a lot of the cinematography and editing feels like. The scene where the Death Star arrives at Scarif and is just peeking over the horizon and the long shot of Tarkin standing at the viewport, Scarif reflected across the command room's floor are absolutely stunning. The sense of scale when the super laser dish is being emplaced in Tarkin's first scene is great.
Both sequences where the Death Star are involved and fire are spectacular. This movie makes the Death Star scary to me.
Also, let's not forget that in the canon comic Shattered Empire, Part III - which takes place after the Battle of Endor - Leia was able to sense the dark presence of Darth Maul in the Theed Royal Palace from over 20 years ago. Her greatest Force power is her Force sense, and she has uncanny glimpses into the past, as well as a great farsight. She is the daughter of the Chosen One, after all.
Edited by StarkJunior7 hours ago, StarkJunior said:Also, let's not forget that in the canon comic Shattered Empire, Part III - which takes place after the Battle of Endor - Leia was able to sense the dark presence of Darth Maul in the Theed Royal Palace from over 20 years ago. Her greatest Force power is her Force sense, and she has uncanny glimpses into the past, as well as a great farsight. She is the daughter of the Chosen One, after all.
1) How long after RotJ was this published?
2) Information vital to making the pieces fit in stories presented in one medium should not require hunting down stories presented in another medium. It's one thing to ask readers to read a book series in order, it's a different thing entirely to tell readers of a book series that contradictions in the books would make sense if only they'd "gone multimedia" like a "true fan". Likewise, information necessary to reconcile contradictions between two movies should not be buried in some comic book.
3) Again, this just comes down to Lucas making a blunder, and fans coming up with their own theories to reconcile the contradiction. Lucas didn't intend to imply that Leia was having Force visions of her mother, that's purely out of the fans' own minds. The contradiction is on film, in the stories as presented -- that the fans can come up with ways to reconcile in their own heads is meaningless. It's a failure of storycraft on Lucas' part.
1 hour ago, MaxKilljoy said:Lucas didn't intend to imply that Leia was having Force visions of her mother
Now you also know his thoughts and intentions, cool.
9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:Now you also know his thoughts and intentions, cool.
Well, he claims to know mine, so....
5 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:Well, he claims to know mine, so....
Obviously a writing mistake!
42 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:Now you also know his thoughts and intentions, cool.
It has nothing to do with mind-reading -- it has to do with what Lucas himself tells us, both in his own words and what he puts on the screen.
We know, objectively, that Lucas didn't determine until ESB that Vader was Luke's father, and didn't determine until RotJ that Leia was Luke's sister. Lucas directly and repeatedly admits that he was making it up as he went along.
http://www.cracked.com/article_19043_6-classic-series-you-didnt-know-were-made-up-fly.html
And the Doctor couldn't regenerate until Hartnell needed to leave the roll.
And Kryptonians didnt get their power from the yellow sun until it was relevant.
And Kryptonite didnt exist until they needed to give Superman's radio voice actor a week off.
And there wasn't a massive cave under Wayne Manor until Batman needed a lair.
And Uhura didnt have a first name until someone mentioned it in the movies. . . .
Dude, you do realize this is how nearly every big sci-fi/fantasy franchise world builds, right? Even the master, Tolkien, had this happen. Just because it happens in a later medium doesn't make it not true in the universe or whatever it is you're trying to say.
Well, Max has finally convinced me. Star Wars is a movie. It's not real.
Yes, Lucas made things up as he went along and the saga isn't perfectly pieced together. So what? Once he established Leia could use the Force it became a thing. I don't know if Lucas had the idea for Leia when making Empire (and Yoda was referring to her: "No, there is another") but definitely in RotJ she's shown to have some Force ability and it's carried into the new canon, including Force Awakens.
12 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:Dude, you do realize this is how nearly every big sci-fi/fantasy franchise world builds, right? Even the master, Tolkien, had this happen. Just because it happens in a later medium doesn't make it not true in the universe or whatever it is you're trying to say.
My favorite Tolkien re-write is Bilbo's magic ring being the One Ring. In the original edition of The Hobbit Gollum wasn't all that nefarious and the magic ring was just a magic ring (which Gollum gave to Bilbo after losing the contest of riddles). Only when Tolkien started to piece together LotR did he decide to change the ring into something much more significant and he re-wrote The Hobbit accordingly for subsequent printings. He even provided an in-world explanation - the original version of The Hobbit was the tale as Bilbo told it around the Shire, with the real version only going into his "private" memoirs.
Edited by Jedi Ronin3 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:My favorite Tokien re-write is Bilbo's magic ring being the One Ring. In the original edition of The Hobbit Gollum wasn't all that nefarious and the magic ring was just a magic ring (which Gollum gave to Bilbo after losing the contest of riddles). Only when Tolkien started to piece together LotR did he decide to change the ring into something much more significant and he re-wrote The Hobbit accordingly for subsequent printings. He even provided an in-world explanation - the original version of The Hobbit was the tale as Bilbo told it around the Shire, with the real version only going into his "private" memoirs.
Yeah, exactly.
It's almost like world-building is hard and sometimes things change throughout the process.
Obviously, Tolkien got it wrong.
SERIAL FICTION IS WRITTEN EPISODE BY EPISODE!?!?! NO!!!!!!! IT'S NOT TRUE!!! IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Guess what, the Cylons don't actually have a plan. That was just good marketing.
Hell, even Babylon 5 - a show that was designed from the very beginning to have all five seasons of the story laid out (in a thousand years both past and future) before frame one was shot - had alterations in plotting mid-story.
Edited by Desslok17 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:SERIAL FICTION IS WRITTEN EPISODE BY EPISODE!?!?! NO!!!!!!! IT'S NOT TRUE!!! IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Guess what, the Cylons don't actually have a plan. That was just good marketing.
What?!?!
Next you'll tell me that (just in case...lol)
Tyrol and Cally were able to have a baby without it being the Big Deal that Boomer and Helo's baby was because Tyrol wasn't originally intended to be a Cylon.
Pull the other one. 
16 minutes ago, Desslok said:Hell, even Babylon 5 - a show that was designed from the very beginning to have all five seasons of the story laid out (in a thousand years both past and future) before frame one was shot - had alterations in plotting mid-story.
The idea that you could come up with a story like that in advance and not have it altered by the realities of production is frankly bonkers. No story perfectly survives a writers' strike or a scene being unusable because the sound recording didn't work properly and you have no time for re-shoots or your lead actor having a mental breakdown.
To JMS' credit he did have a bunch of contingencies built into the show. Every character had a trap door in case the actor became unavailable, like Sinclair leaving and being replaced with Captain Sheridan and so on and so on. It was just insurmountable problems like the show being canceled when the PTN network went out of business that he couldn't plan for, forcing events from season five being moved up into a hastily rewritten season four.
(And of course when the show was uncanceled for season five, the story suffered because all the good stuff had been moved to season four)
Even season 4 suffered. As fantastic as the human civil war arc was, the Shadow War resolution was really unsatisfactory, which I assume was due to being cut down to half the planned length or so.
I'm just gonna come right out and say it:
I never cared for Babylon 5.
They lost me in the first five minutes of the pilot, and never got me back, despite high praise from friends whose opinions I respect and tastes I frequently share leading to me trying it again a bit further down the line.
in fact:
JMS isn't quite the antichrist where Spider-Man is concerned (that would be Brian Michael Bendis), but he's a very close second.
I always just assumed that when Leia was talking about her mother she was remembering her adopted mother.