8 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Show me something that indicates that other Force users can't. Also, the Force is strong in her family.

You're introducing distinctions that aren't there in the movies. Talk about occam's razor...

Is "They can unless it's proven they can't!" really the standard you want to promote here? Is everything true until proven false?

6 hours ago, Forresto said:

He saw scared men abandoning a ship. They probably were carrying everything they could to their escape ship such as data and a blackbox. There is absolutely nothing to indicate Vader had any idea or could've known that the data tab was the Death Star plans. Sure the rebels don't want him to obtain the data tab but there's a lot of information on a Rebel Flagship they wouldn't want the Imperials getting such as the location of their base, and if you watch a New Hope that is another thing Tarkin and Vader are hunting for.

You're also forgetting they need a physical copy of the plans for Leia to give to R2. That's what these are. There has always been a physical version of the plans, all R1 does is show you how R2 ends up getting them.

What "need"? The plans were transmitted from the planet, and Vader clearly says "transmitted", not "transported".

Anything that occurs between Leia and R2 in ANH means jack to the issue under discussion.

5 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

Is "They can unless it's proven they can't!" really the standard you want to promote here? Is everything true until proven false?

You're the one trying to bring additional distinctions into it. I'm going by what we see on screen.

If the movies imply it, and don't show anything contradicting it, then yes, I'm assuming it's true.

9 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

You're absolutely right. Some do. I don't.

If, however, someone felt insulted by my statement of fact (that pointed to no one in particular), I'd say that's on them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

" Some people just aren't happy unless complaining about something they purport to enjoy. "

Pretty cut and dried attempt to attack the person, instead of the argument.

Followed up by the second sentence in the quote above, which amounts to "calling out the fallacy just proves I was right when I committed the fallacy."

But that's OK -- if you're at the point of attacking the posters instead of the posts, that's informative about the strength (or lack thereof, rather) of the position you're arguing for.

5 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

" Some people just aren't happy unless complaining about something they purport to enjoy. "

Pretty cut and dried attempt to attack the person, instead of the argument.

Followed up by the second sentence in the quote above, which amounts to "calling out the fallacy just proves I was right when I committed the fallacy."

But that's OK -- if you're at the point of attacking the posters instead of the posts, that's informative about the strength (or lack thereof, rather) of the position you're arguing for.

Who was "attacked?"

21 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

You're the one trying to bring additional distinctions into it. I'm going by what we see on screen.

If the movies imply it, and don't show anything contradicting it, then yes, I'm assuming it's true.

This "implication" that never actually occurs. Leia is never shown or even hinted to actually possess any abilities on-screen, and she's completely untrained, and has no idea that she has any unusual/special abilities, even potentially. She's completely untrained, and on-screen Luke shows NO signs of any abilities before he's trained.

"Well gee she could have if you stop and think about it" is NOT implication by the film -- it's inference.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Who was "attacked?"

You're really going to play that game?

In response to people complaining about a prequel contradicting the original movie, you say "some people are only happy if they're complaining", and then you're going to pretend that it wasn't an attempt to undercut their argument by implying it's due to a personal fault on their part?

Go ahead, pull the other one.

36 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

This "implication" that never actually occurs. Leia is never shown or even hinted to actually possess any abilities on-screen, and she's completely untrained, and has no idea that she has any unusual/special abilities, even potentially. She's completely untrained, and on-screen Luke shows NO signs of any abilities before he's trained.

"Well gee she could have if you stop and think about it" is NOT implication by the film -- it's inference.

We know that Anakin used the Force unconsciously, before being trained. Unconscious Force use is also part of the backstory of various characters, like Ahsoka. It's not inference, it's paying attention.

39 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

You're really going to play that game?

In response to people complaining about a prequel contradicting the original movie, you say "some people are only happy if they're complaining", and then you're going to pretend that it wasn't an attempt to undercut their argument by implying it's due to a personal fault on their part?

Go ahead, pull the other one.

I'm not "pulling" either.

I made a statement of fact. There are some who are only satisfied when complaining about something they purport to enjoy.

If one is bringing up irrefutable points regarding errors, etc, then those points would remain irrefutable, and incapable of being "undercut."

Meanwhile, I'd say (as I already have) that anyone choosing to interpret such a statement of fact as an "attack" against them says more about that person and their perception of their stance.

15 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I'm not "pulling" either.

I made a statement of fact. There are some who are only satisfied when complaining about something they purport to enjoy.

If one is bringing up irrefutable points regarding errors, etc, then those points would remain irrefutable, and incapable of being "undercut."

Meanwhile, I'd say (as I already have) that anyone choosing to interpret such a statement of fact as an "attack" against them says more about that person and their perception of their stance.

And that's just doubling-down on your ad hom.

35 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

We know that Anakin used the Force unconsciously, before being trained. Unconscious Force use is also part of the backstory of various characters, like Ahsoka. It's not inference, it's paying attention.

It's baseless fan-****.

Stuff that's in the movies and the animated shows is baseless? Good to know!

19 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

It's baseless fan-****.

So I take it that you were in the bathroom when an untrained Anakin won the pod race in episode one thanks to his untapped force potential? And has been winning (or at least not dying) for some time?

20 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Stuff that's in the movies and the animated shows is baseless? Good to know!

What's more likely...

That Lucas just made a mistake because he's always proudly been a "do what's most awesome, who cares about details?" sort?

Or that Lucas was actually thinking -- when RotJ was being written and filmed in the early early 1980s -- that Leia was actually having some sort of latent-Force-powers retrosensory experience every time she remembered her mother?

In the Return novelization Leia uses the Force to help her cross Jabba off with the chain.

In Empire we see Luke call out to her and she 'hears' him and then says she knows where he is, seems like probably required a little something on her part.

Han tells her in Return he's sure Luke made it off DS2 and she says she knows, she can feel it.

28 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

What's more likely...

That Lucas just made a mistake because he's always proudly been a "do what's most awesome, who cares about details?" sort?

Or that Lucas was actually thinking -- when RotJ was being written and filmed in the early early 1980s -- that Leia was actually having some sort of latent-Force-powers retrosensory experience every time she remembered her mother?

But that's not the question. The question is whether what happens in the movies in regard to that is contradictory. And it's not.

Of course Leia wasn't Force-sensitive until she was, in a later movie. Of course she wasn't Luke's sister until she was, in a later movie. And of course her mother didn't die in childbirth until she did, in a later movie. But being later additions doesn't make them contradictions, not when they all fit with everything else, and any apparent discrepancies can be dispelled with but a second's thought about the implications of other parts of the story.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

But that's not the question. The question is whether what happens in the movies in regard to that is contradictory. And it's not.

Of course Leia wasn't Force-sensitive until she was, in a later movie. Of course she wasn't Luke's sister until she was, in a later movie. And of course her mother didn't die in childbirth until she did, in a later movie. But being later additions doesn't make them contradictions, not when they all fit with everything else, and any apparent discrepancies can be dispelled with but a second's thought about the implications of other parts of the story.

It's exactly the question.

A contradiction is a contradiction. Coming up with ways to paper it over doesn't change that.

30 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

It's exactly the question.

A contradiction is a contradiction. Coming up with ways to paper it over doesn't change that.

Something that isn't a contradiction doesn't become one by wishing really hard.

So i guess that means that Vader being Luke's father was a contradiction since it was new information we didnt get until much later?

2 hours ago, MaxKilljoy said:

And that's just doubling-down on your ad hom.

Sorry you feel that way.

7 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Something that isn't a contradiction doesn't become one by wishing really hard.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/contradiction

In RotJ, Leia says that she remembers her mother.

In RotS, we see that her mother dies when Leia is less than a day old.

Leaving relevant information out again, are we? In Empire Strikes Back, we see that Force-sensitives can have visions of other places and other times.

You're doing the equivalent of saying "Jedi can have blue or green lightsabers", and then claiming that Mace Windu's lightsaber is obviously a production mistake.

11 hours ago, MaxKilljoy said:

You're really going to play that game?

In response to people complaining about a prequel contradicting the original movie, you say "some people are only happy if they're complaining", and then you're going to pretend that it wasn't an attempt to undercut their argument by implying it's due to a personal fault on their part?

Go ahead, pull the other one.

Ah ha ha ha.

So you complain about ad hominem attacks, but they're totally cool if you're the one making them...

You're right, sorry.

I should know better than to bother anyway, some people will make any excuse they can for "teh bewbs" no matter how ridiculous it makes the art look.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Ah ha ha ha.

So you complain about ad hominem attacks, but they're totally cool if you're the one making them...

Different thing. One deals with an observed action (what people will do, an observable fact) the other deals with an insinuation of motive and emotional state that the person making the statement cannot know ("some people are only happy if" ) .

But nice try.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Leaving relevant information out again, are we? In Empire Strikes Back, we see that Force-sensitives can have visions of other places and other times.

There is no other relevant information.

We never see Leia having a vision of another place or time, that doesn't involve her romantic sibling link to Luke (that he needs help on Bespin, the fact that he made it off DS2...) We have no reason to conclude she has any "farseeing" ability.

"But it could have been" is neither what we see on screen, nor is it what we know about the creative process. It is pure fan-speculation, nothing more.