There should have been main characters there so that people care about the battle. The way it's set up now, it's just empty spectacle lacking almost any emotional engagement.

In short, who are these people, and why should I care?

Heck you can say that about the protagonists. They had a pathetic amount of backstory, and yet you cared about them? I mean that heavy weapons guy, I still don't know his name, his backstory was basically "I'm with him." and he tilts his head at Chirrut. We learn nothing of him, AT ALL, and yet you, I assume, cared when he died? Why? He was just as developed as the people on those ships, by that I mean, not at all.

Heck the only person in that movie I DID care about, was that nameless Rebel mook who stuck the data through the door, screaming for help while Vader approaches him from...behind!

While I found the entire movie uninteresting, I challenge the idea that the only time you can care about a conflict in a story, is if there is a main character in the mix. Rogue 1 was finally able to invest me emotionally in their conflict, with an extra, who had 2 minutes of screen time, and likely didn't have a name other than "Dude who died from vader" or "got pwned from behind through the door" or "Guy who handed off plans". THAT guy, I actually cared about, don't ask me why, I couldn't really explain it, but he was the only time in that whole movie that I actually cared what was happening.

So yeah, you don't have to have a main character for it to be important, or investing, it just has to be done well.

Why would one have to include a major space battle at all, other than some notion of "Star Wars, must have space battle."

Because it was awesome?

Because it would sell a **** ton less movie tickets.

likely didn't have a name other than "Dude who died from vader" or "got pwned from behind through the door" or "Guy who handed off plans".

Come on - this is Star Wars. I give it by the end of the theatrical run by the time Powned Dude has a 14 page entry on Wookiepedia.

(Also, I happen to agree with you. Don't get me wrong, Vader wrecking their S was badass, but the payoff was not the sabering, but this poor guy desperately trying to get through the door, shouting for to get someone - anyone - on the other side to hand the plans off too as Shitstrom From The 10th Level of Hell decends upon him. All these lives, all the work and suffering, down to this one pivotal do-or-die moment.)

Why would one have to include a major space battle at all, other than some notion of "Star Wars, must have space battle."

Because it was awesome?

Because it would sell a **** ton less movie tickets.

Because its name is "Star", implying Space, and "Wars", implying battles....

Why would one have to include a major space battle at all, other than some notion of "Star Wars, must have space battle."

Because it was awesome?

Because it would sell a **** ton less movie tickets.

Then why did Empire do so well? There wasn't any big space battle in that movie. The asteroid stuff was a small cat and mouse sequence, hardly qualifying as a "war", and yet fans consider it the best movie of the entire franchise.

likely didn't have a name other than "Dude who died from vader" or "got pwned from behind through the door" or "Guy who handed off plans".

Come on - this is Star Wars. I give it by the end of the theatrical run by the time Powned Dude has a 14 page entry on Wookiepedia.

(Also, I happen to agree with you. Don't get me wrong, Vader wrecking their S was badass, but the payoff was not the sabering, but this poor guy desperately trying to get through the door, shouting for to get someone - anyone - on the other side to hand the plans off too as Shitstrom From The 10th Level of Hell decends upon him. All these lives, all the work and suffering, down to this one pivotal do-or-die moment.)

Yeah, for me it was the moment where his screams went from "open the door! help us!" to "take the plans! take them! now!" after he takes a look back and realizes he's dead. Really good, small bit IMO. That actor might not have had a big part, but he freaking sold the few minutes of screen time he had for all it's worth.

Dude. Battle of Hoth? Duh.

A Star Wars movie doesn't necessarily need a space fight - Empire didnt really have one, neither did Clones and Sith had one, but it was pretty much monofocused "get to the command ship" on a couple of characters more than a massive fleet battle (despite actually being a massive fleet clash). I think that having one in R1 is important because this is the ****-or-get-off-the-pot moment for the Alliance. Prior to Scarif, the leadership was all "Oh hell no!" and looking to disband. Admiral Raddus engaging the enemy was basically him shoving all the Rebel's chips into the pot on one last hand.

And don't forget, they weren't even going to go. Jyn and Cassian forced their hand.

Dude. Battle of Hoth? Duh.

That's not in SPACE, which is apparently required, according to previous posters, for it to be a Star Wars movie. The distinct lack of space in the Hoth battle, would disqualify it by their standards. Unless you count that 10 second shot of the transport as it flies past a crippled Destroyer, which I don't.

Heck you can say that about the protagonists. They had a pathetic amount of backstory, and yet you cared about them? I mean that heavy weapons guy, I still don't know his name, his backstory was basically "I'm with him." and he tilts his head at Chirrut. We learn nothing of him, AT ALL, and yet you, I assume, cared when he died?

You assume wrongly. His death didn't matter to me at all. His character got no development beyond the most stereotypical beats, and I didn't give a **** when he died.

Heck the only person in that movie I DID care about, was that nameless Rebel mook who stuck the data through the door, screaming for help while Vader approaches him from...behind!

Yeah, that guy got to me, too. The actor really sold the utter desperation in that moment. That was really something. But would it have worked as well as it did if Vader hadn't been there? If it was just faceless stromtroopers or some unknown villain?

While I found the entire movie uninteresting, I challenge the idea that the only time you can care about a conflict in a story, is if there is a main character in the mix.

Well, good luck with that. Check out a couple books and interviews with writers on how movies and novels are written, and what works and what doesn't. They'll say exactly what I've been saying here.

Heck you can say that about the protagonists. They had a pathetic amount of backstory, and yet you cared about them? I mean that heavy weapons guy, I still don't know his name, his backstory was basically "I'm with him." and he tilts his head at Chirrut. We learn nothing of him, AT ALL, and yet you, I assume, cared when he died?

You assume wrongly. His death didn't matter to me at all. His character got no development beyond the most stereotypical beats, and I didn't give a **** when he died.

Heck the only person in that movie I DID care about, was that nameless Rebel mook who stuck the data through the door, screaming for help while Vader approaches him from...behind!

Yeah, that guy got to me, too. The actor really sold the utter desperation in that moment. That was really something. But would it have worked as well as it did if Vader hadn't been there? If it was just faceless stromtroopers or some unknown villain?

While I found the entire movie uninteresting, I challenge the idea that the only time you can care about a conflict in a story, is if there is a main character in the mix.

Well, good luck with that. Check out a couple books and interviews with writers on how movies and novels are written, and what works and what doesn't. They'll say exactly what I've been saying here.

And just because they are writers doesn't mean they are right. I'm not saying it doesn't help to have a protag in the thick of things, but to say you MUST have one, or nobody will give a ****? Nah, I call utter bull on that, and I cite my own personal reaction to movies and stories, and how I've become invested in extras just as much, if not more than some main characters. Case in point, that nameless padawan in Revenge, who almost escaped, but got shot down by the troopers. He was like the guy at the door in R1, he had like 60 seconds of time, but I was more invested in that nameless extra than any main character in the 2 hour run time.

As to the question of would it have been as impactful if it wasn't Vader? I don't know, I didn't see that version, so it's hard to say. But if they had the troopers actually being an effective, and terrifying force, like they are actually supposed to be, despite fan mockery of them, then yeah. A group of faceless troopers, glowing in the half-light of the hallway, methodically shooting down the Rebels, while stepping over the bodies of their fallen comrades without a thought? You're **** right that could be done effectively. Especially since nobody in that scene was a protag, thus not wearing Plot Armor, and thus free to be gunned down mercilessly by the troopers.

As to your comment about Heavy Weapons Guy, it sounds like you are in my small camp of "I didn't like the movie". Is that the case?

And just because they are writers doesn't mean they are right.

Of course not. But they have the experience to back up their point. This isn't an argument from authority, it's one from experience/practice. Big difference.

Of course you can be momentarily invested in the fate of an extra, but that's not enough to sustain an entire series of scenes making up a big space battle. Also, that kid's escape attempt was witnessed through the eyes of Bail Organa, an established supporting character from the movie. It seems a common factor for your investment in an extra is the presence of a previously established character in the scene to provide emotional context.

I think the movie is... okay. Solid. Mostly competent. I watched it twice and had a pleasant experience each time, but I wasn't deeply invested in it the way I get with movies that really get their hooks into me.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm criticizing the movie's flaws here because that's the topic that got me interested, but I'm not blind to its achievements. I'm just not someone to refrain from criticism because I like a movie/franchise. Some of my favorite shows or movies receive the harshest criticisms from me for their flaws.

In short, who are these people, and why should I care?

Heck you can say that about the protagonists. They had a pathetic amount of backstory, and yet you cared about them? I mean that heavy weapons guy, I still don't know his name, his backstory was basically "I'm with him." and he tilts his head at Chirrut. We learn nothing of him, AT ALL, and yet you, I assume, cared when he died? Why? He was just as developed as the people on those ships, by that I mean, not at all.

Heck the only person in that movie I DID care about, was that nameless Rebel mook who stuck the data through the door, screaming for help while Vader approaches him from...behind!

While I found the entire movie uninteresting, I challenge the idea that the only time you can care about a conflict in a story, is if there is a main character in the mix. Rogue 1 was finally able to invest me emotionally in their conflict, with an extra, who had 2 minutes of screen time, and likely didn't have a name other than "Dude who died from vader" or "got pwned from behind through the door" or "Guy who handed off plans". THAT guy, I actually cared about, don't ask me why, I couldn't really explain it, but he was the only time in that whole movie that I actually cared what was happening.

So yeah, you don't have to have a main character for it to be important, or investing, it just has to be done well.

Actually, if you pay close attention, we learn that Baze (the heavy weapons guy) as well as Chîrrut (the monk) were both guardians of the Jedi temple on Jedha, not necessarily force sensitives, but at least, like, acolytes to the Jedi Order, or something.

---

In regards to the space battle, I have to agree with most people here, that the lack of main-character involvement didn't lessen my investment in the battle.

And while Star Wars doesn't NEED a space battle to be Star Wars, this one WAS kinda necessary. Somebody HAD to be there to pick up the transmission, because there was no chance that the R1 squad would've gotten off planet again.

And one may disregard that as plot-devicey, but it is what it is.

Also, I'll freely admit that I'm a sucker for a visual spectacle and am just glad that we were blessed with the Hammerhead Corvette Szene.

As a sidenote: (just to add a bit more inflammatory opinion )

Even though the Space Battle in Revenge of the Sith DID involve the two Main Characters, it was like, a bajillion times more boring than Rogue Ones Space Battle.

Actually, if you pay close attention, we learn that Baze (the heavy weapons guy) as well as Chîrrut (the monk) were both guardians of the Jedi temple on Jedha, not necessarily force sensitives, but at least, like, acolytes to the Jedi Order, or something.

Close attention? It's stated outright in dialogue.

Good news everybody! I can finally talk about R1 in my house! The last holdout finally saw the thing last night.

When E8 drops in December, I'm laying down the law. By New Years Day, it's Game On for spoilers. None of this pussyfooting around for 8 weeks nonsense.

1 minute ago, Desslok said:

Good news everybody! I can finally talk about R1 in my house! The last holdout finally saw the thing last night.

When E8 drops in December, I'm laying down the law. By New Years Day, it's Game On for spoilers. None of this pussyfooting around for 8 weeks nonsense.

Frankly, after the debacle of E7 (I've since seen it for free, and... o.0... what the HELL... I still feel ripped off and I didn't pay anything), I'll be waiting on spoilers and reviews before I decide to bother with E8 in any way.

13 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Good news everybody! I can finally talk about R1 in my house! The last holdout finally saw the thing last night.

When E8 drops in December, I'm laying down the law. By New Years Day, it's Game On for spoilers. None of this pussyfooting around for 8 weeks nonsense.

You're kinder than I would've been.

[rant] Ep8 can't really be any worse than Ep7, since Ep7 was awful. Unoriginal plot, laughable bad guys, and a complete disregard by J.J. Adams for long-established Star Wars canon such as mass shadows. First he screws up the Trek franchise, and then he does it to Star Wars. [/rant] Having gotten that off of my chest, I will say that all of the new young actors playing Rebels did a great job.

30 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

Frankly, after the debacle of E7 (I've since seen it for free, and... o.0... what the HELL... I still feel ripped off and I didn't pay anything), I'll be waiting on spoilers and reviews before I decide to bother with E8 in any way.

You know, even if E8 is Star 'Wars' The Hands of Fate, I'll still go see it. It's so baked into my DNA at this point that even a tepid E7 cant keep me away.

NEW NOVEL INFERNO SQUAD WILL PICK UP IMMEDIATELY AFTER ROGUE ONE

Quote

You don’t steal plans to the Death Star without making the Empire angry. We’ll learn how angry very soon.

StarWars.com is excited to announce Inferno Squad, a new novel from Christie Golden coming July 25, about an elite Imperial squad and their mission following the events of Rogue One and A New Hope. While there are more details to come regarding the book, we have a first look at the cover, and the official description below offers a glimpse into what fans can expect:

The Rebellion may have heroes like Jyn Erso and Luke Skywalker. But the Empire has Inferno Squad.

After the humiliating theft of the Death Star plans and the resulting destruction of the battle station, the Empire is on the defensive. In response to this stunning defeat, the Imperial Navy has authorized the formation of an elite team of soldiers, known as Inferno Squad. Their mission: infiltrate and eliminate the remnants of Saw Gerrera’s Partisans. Following the death of their leader, the Partisans have carried on his extremist legacy, determined to thwart the Empire — no matter what the cost. Now, Inferno Squad must prove their status as the best of the best and take down the Partisans from within. But as the danger intensifies and the threat of discovery grows, how far will Inferno Squad go to ensure the safety of the Empire?

Inferno Squad versus the Partisans? Sounds like a classic Star Wars battle in the making.

Christie Golden, eh? Fate of the Jedi was pretty terrible and Dark Disciple was mostly forgettable fluff. Looks like the Neo-Canon is keeping it's consistent run of mediocre writers churning out mediocre product (with the occasional bright spot - why cant we get more Claudia Gray, or they hurry up with the Zhan book!)

Also, surfing around on Star Wars Dot Com, I found this:

Where in the galaxy are the worlds of rogue one?

The TL;DNR version?

Lah’mu - slightly Northeast of Dantooine

Ring of Kafrene - North of Takodana

Wobani - between The Wheel and Bimmisaari

Jedha - Mid Rim, Terrabe sector (where ever the hell that is)

Scarif - Northeast from Geonosis, up that trade route from Tatooine.

58 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Also, surfing around on Star Wars Dot Com, I found this:

Where in the galaxy are the worlds of rogue one?

The TL;DNR version?

Lah’mu - slightly Northeast of Dantooine

Ring of Kafrene - North of Takodana

Wobani - between The Wheel and Bimmisaari

Jedha - Mid Rim, Terrabe sector (where ever the hell that is)

Scarif - Northeast from Geonosis, up that trade route from Tatooine.

Yep...they're on the map in the Rogue One Ultimate Visual Guide (and have since been added to the map I use for my game).

Warning: Off Topic

Speaking of neo-canon it looks like we're going to learn Jar-Jar's ultimate fate.

An interesting breakdown of the Battle of Scarff, from a tactical point of view. The TL;DNR version? A clusterfunk of tactics.

On 3/1/2017 at 4:57 PM, Desslok said:

An interesting breakdown of the Battle of Scarff, from a tactical point of view. The TL;DNR version? A clusterfunk of tactics.

In Star Wars? Never...