In movie canon, how do we know that Bothan's were intended to be an alien race? Botha could have been a planet of humans.
This is true -- "new canon" Bothans need not be aliens, or blatantly not human aliens.
E: the fuzzy Bothans really were one of the sillier EU items, not sure what the author(s) had in min there.
Edited by MaxKilljoyThis is true -- "new canon" Bothans need not be aliens, or blatantly not human aliens.
E: the fuzzy Bothans really were one of the sillier EU items, not sure what the author(s) had in min there.
While I've had my share of disagreements/exasperations with the EU, I can't say that "Bothans have fur" is something that jarred particularly strongly. Wookiees have fur too, and that's fine. Why not Bothans?
This is true -- "new canon" Bothans need not be aliens, or blatantly not human aliens.
E: the fuzzy Bothans really were one of the sillier EU items, not sure what the author(s) had in min there.
While I've had my share of disagreements/exasperations with the EU, I can't say that "Bothans have fur" is something that jarred particularly strongly. Wookiees have fur too, and that's fine. Why not Bothans?
I think the hangup is that a large group of (unless they shaved I suppose, but then theres still the face) obviously not humans managed to infiltrate an extremely secret project and procure information within an exasperatingly anti-alien regime.
This is true -- "new canon" Bothans need not be aliens, or blatantly not human aliens.
E: the fuzzy Bothans really were one of the sillier EU items, not sure what the author(s) had in min there.
While I've had my share of disagreements/exasperations with the EU, I can't say that "Bothans have fur" is something that jarred particularly strongly. Wookiees have fur too, and that's fine. Why not Bothans?
I think the hangup is that a large group of (unless they shaved I suppose, but then theres still the face) obviously not humans managed to infiltrate an extremely secret project and procure information within an exasperatingly anti-alien regime.
That's the heart of it, yes.
OK, phrased that way the argument makes a lot of sense. 
But this again leans on another "assumption" from the EU, namely that the Empire had a strong anti-alien bias. Nowhere in the movies is it mentioned specifically that the Empire has a beef with non-humans. Sure, all the Imperials we see are human, but that's almost certainly more due to special effects/costume constraints during the making of the OT than any deliberate choice on Lucas' side. Is the Empire predominantly human? Absolutely. Do they prevent aliens from participating in any way, shape or form? There's no canonical evidence of that. Bothans (and other aliens) could easily have been involved in the Death Star or other projects as support personnel etc.
Not to mention that the Bothans in question could have included some good slicers who snatched the data off a not-so-secure Imperial server and then ran really fast with lots of stormtroopers and TIEs in pursuit. Hence, the remark that "many Bothans died...".
Canon Bothans appear as they do in the EU.
Canon Bothans appear as they do in the EU.
If we take a sketch made by a fictional character within the setting as canon, then the reset missed the chance to un-silly the Bothans as spies.
OK, phrased that way the argument makes a lot of sense.
But this again leans on another "assumption" from the EU, namely that the Empire had a strong anti-alien bias. Nowhere in the movies is it mentioned specifically that the Empire has a beef with non-humans. Sure, all the Imperials we see are human, but that's almost certainly more due to special effects/costume constraints during the making of the OT than any deliberate choice on Lucas' side. Is the Empire predominantly human? Absolutely. Do they prevent aliens from participating in any way, shape or form? There's no canonical evidence of that. Bothans (and other aliens) could easily have been involved in the Death Star or other projects as support personnel etc.
Rebels is considered canon, and it shows ongoing pervasive anti-non-human attitudes within the Imperial forces, shows the enslavement of Wookies and implies other alien peoples being enslaved, and goes into detail on the Lasatt and other alien peoples being wiped out.
It's safe to say that aspect of the setting has been canonized.
In movie canon, how do we know that Bothan's were intended to be an alien race? Botha could have been a planet of humans.
This is true -- "new canon" Bothans need not be aliens, or blatantly not human aliens.
E: the fuzzy Bothans really were one of the sillier EU items, not sure what the author(s) had in min there.
Perhaps Bothans are not a race, but the shunned castoffs of a Zygerrian slaver who had a fling with her Wookie slave?
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Considering how quickly the second death Star was made, I would imagine that there may have been much slave labour used. To the detriment of the slaves health in that many died. The many Bothans could be the ones that died being slaves but also the many that further risked their lives getting the information on the second Death Star out. The first one was an unknown quantity, but the second one may have forced the slaves to rethink their own lives as it could be their planet destroyed next so they risked life and limb getting the information out.
Canon Bothans appear as they do in the EU.
Actually that pic makes them look a lot more human than most renditions.
In the EU, Bothans look like Joe Camel and Chester Cheetah had a hideous love child.
This cut felt choppy and rushed in comparison to the one we saw a few days ago. Then again, I'm not well-versed in the sensibilities of the international trailer market.
Canon Bothans appear as they do in the EU.
Actually that pic makes them look a lot more human than most renditions.
It looks like a furry elf.
It looks like a furry elf.Canon Bothans appear as they do in the EU.
Actually that pic makes them look a lot more human than most renditions.
The Emperor himself admits that the death star 2 plans were intentionally leaked. Given that Bothans are culturally spymasters and often middlemen in intelligence trading, their being non human doesn't matter as they make the best target to get the intel to the rebellion. The plans were fed to the Bothans somehow, and that somehow was made convincing by killing many of them.
The Emperor himself admits that the death star 2 plans were intentionally leaked. Given that Bothans are culturally spymasters and often middlemen in intelligence trading, their being non human doesn't matter as they make the best target to get the intel to the rebellion. The plans were fed to the Bothans somehow, and that somehow was made convincing by killing many of them.
I get that. The problem is that the whole bothan population being spymasters. The single facet species trope that pervades science fiction, and space fantasy like star wars, is frustrating and lazy.
From a logical point, if bothans are so well known as spies - everyone seems to know this about them in the fiction, who in their right mind would let a bothan anywhere near anything sensitive. I'm not just talking about the second death star, but everything. Now, if bothans were shapeshifters I could get behind the species spy thing - others wouldn't trust them, and they would be good at keeping secrets, for fear of reprisal.
Now, if a group of bothans, rogue ones (pun intended), saw an opening to steal some details, and these spies - who were just a small subset and not representative of a mono-culture stereotype, stole these plans and the decidedly non spy bothan population was punished, say by orbital bombardment, because of their actions it makes for better drama. Specifically because of Palpatines comnent.
Palpatine allows a group of bothan rebels to acquire the intel and escape. He then allows the civilian innocent population to give credibility to the ruse. Mon Mothmas statement of "many bothans died to bring us this information, becomes tragic. As soon as Luke is debriefed by New Republic and recounts the emperors words. The bothan people, if told this fact, could blame the new republic for innocents lost. Drama. A whole species of spies? Well, they knew the rules of the game.
Mono Culture is boring, and lazy, having SOME bothans be spies is better in my opinion for the above scenario, and more tragic, than every bothan being a "spy". The bothan spies/rebels that get the death star II's intel are unwitting pawns thinking they are doing the right thing, and if they find out that the deaths for stealing the plans was a setup they would be angry, dustraught, and bitter. They could also be pariahs by their government based on their actions.
All that being said, no bothans were harmed in the filming of Rogue One - a line I hope to see in the credits.
Mono Culture is boring, and lazy,
The mono-culture thing is so prevalent in Star Wars that it sparked a running gag among my players: any time they encounter a member of a species which they're not familiar with; they assume that all members of that species will have the same disposition, the same aptitudes, or both.
Mono Culture is boring, and lazy,
The mono-culture thing is so prevalent in Star Wars that it sparked a running gag among my players: any time they encounter a member of a species which they're not familiar with; they assume that all members of that species will have the same disposition, the same aptitudes, or both.
Sort of genre savvy in a comically bad way?
Sort of genre savvy in a comically bad way?
Yea, pretty much.
But let's be clear about a few things: most of these "mono-culture" ideas come from EU and related spinoffs (FFG's Star Wars included), not from canon materials. One of the great things about the films and the cartoons is that they tend to break a lot of those stereotypes right out of the gates: Ithorians are all peaceful but we see Ithorian bounty hunters; Trandoshans are all hunters but we see weaselly Trandoshan salvagers; Twi'leks are all lithe dancers but we see fat, sedentary ones; etc. So while the mono-culture tendency we see in RPGs and other EU materials are mostly for the benefit of introducing people to famous stereotypes, many of the best-known figures in canon break these moulds. And that's kind of the point. So Bothans are the galaxy's best spies? Maybe that's kind of a bad joke, in light of the Death Star 2's plans being deliberately leaked. Maybe they hate being known as good spies, and the distrust this has engendered to their species.
Sorry not about Bothans (and really, really not trying to call the One-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named back to our forums due to speaking of coolness of the Imperial military).
Rogue One is full of new Imperial military people and vehicles. But, it's fit in an era just before Episode IV without us seeing these things in Ep. IV-VI. Perhaps it's some OCD on my part but being a fan of the Imperial military (not their ethics) I've been attempting to make sense of it all.
TIE Striker: Strike TIE-fighter. It's either a close ground support fighter and/or a commando drop and support craft?
New Shuttle: Similar to Lambda but 4 wings.
Death Trooper: Commando Stormtroopers in black armor.
The three above were never seen in Ep. IV+, but they are easily explained away for me IF Director Krennic is the commander of the ISB. The ISB is the Gestapo to me. It makes sense this special order that is feared even by other Imperials, would have specialized troops, gear, and vehicles. They aren't seen later since the plot didn't include an encounter with the ISB. And the bureau's credibility is going to take a huge hit by the end of Rogue One. Thus, the Emperor turns to his trusted Sith Lord instead to hunt the Rebels. It makes too much sense. Their failure explains why we instead see Darth Vader and white-clad Stormtroopers hunting Rebels afterwards. I so want Krennic to be ISB!
AT-ACT: All Terrain Armored Cargo Transport. The only extra word is "Cargo" when compared to AT-AT's. It has less firepower (no big chin guns) and a large panel on the sides (cargo doors?).
My interpretation is the AT-AT is an assault troop transport while this version is specialized to carry much more weight in its role of carrying heavy, valuable, cargo. It's still armored with the "A", but perhaps less so then the AT-AT (or possibly just no shielding). I imagine the inside is gutted of speeder bike racks, passenger seats, and shield generators to make room for more cargo. Then some armor plating has been removed to allow carrying of heavier materials such as large crystals?? It wouldn't make sense to see an AT-ACT on Hoth since it's primarily a cargo vehicle for very valuable materials.
The most interesting thing for me is it opens us up for more AT-AT variations. We have perhaps a one-off specialized VIC (very important cargo) vehicle and we have a troop transporter. Is there an AT-AA (Assault) version? No troops but a large multi-missile rack perhaps. Why didn't we see it on Hoth? Luke and other VIP's are at Echo base. Vader wanted them found and captured, not killed. So, send in the troops.
Assault Tank: Armored land speeder tank with lots of weapons. We didn't see it later because other vehicles were more appropriate for the terrain and/or mission?
Shoretrooper: Obviously a Stormtrooper. Canon references include it is seen defending "bunkers and beaches", thus the name. It's also seen inside the Assault Tank as its crew, but its name suggests its not just another vehicle crewman.
This is the hardest one for me. I hope it makes more sense down the road as we get more information, but I still have some speculations that could work? As said above, it seems its not just a Stormtrooper vehicle crewman. I hope not. We already have 3 versions with the AT-AT driver, TIE pilot, and AT-ST driver. Of course it could easily be explained away as crew for the Assault Tank only, but it's called a "Shoretrooper" for "bunkers and beaches", not a "Hovertank Driver".
Bunkers and beaches? Why have such a specialized troop?
First, beaches. Planets themselves are the "beaches" of Star Wars invasions unless you take it literally (we DO see a beach in the trailers). I suppose they could be specialized invasion "Marines", then again we see other Stormtroopers (desert, snow) being used for such. We also see standard troopers on the ground on Endor (not just on ships and stations) or it would be easy to make surface troops be: Desert, Snow or Shore for temperate climates. I suppose they could just work as the standard surface drop Stormtrooper when the climate doesn't require Desert or Snow versions? And standard Stormtroopers are sometimes seen on the surface since they are by far the most common troop after all (you still see Army troops after a Marine invasion).
But, we also add "Bunkers". It could mean they aren't the drop invasion troops, but the opposite - elite surface defensive troops. This could mean Shoretroopers are elite troops sent to guard facilities against pending attacks against their shore/beach/bunkers. They are given defensive speeder tanks with lots of firepower and man prepared positions (bunkers) against eminent attacks. Makes complete sense that they would be used in key defensive positions to defend the construction of a Death Star. BUT, it also makes complete sense to have them literally defending a bunker on Endor also part of a Death Star construction project. I suppose it could be explained away that the Emperor sent his "most elite" legions of Stormtroopers and no defensive shoretroopers made the cut? Their overall quality is a notch below the standard "assault" Stormtrooper?
Thoughts?
Sorry not about Bothans (and really, really not trying to call the One-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named back to our forums due to speaking of coolness of the Imperial military).
Rogue One is full of new Imperial military people and vehicles. But, it's fit in an era just before Episode IV without us seeing these things in Ep. IV-VI. Perhaps it's some OCD on my part but being a fan of the Imperial military (not their ethics) I've been attempting to make sense of it all.
TIE Striker: Strike TIE-fighter. It's either a close ground support fighter and/or a commando drop and support craft?
New Shuttle: Similar to Lambda but 4 wings.
Death Trooper: Commando Stormtroopers in black armor.
The three above were never seen in Ep. IV+, but they are easily explained away for me IF Director Krennic is the commander of the ISB. The ISB is the Gestapo to me. It makes sense this special order that is feared even by other Imperials, would have specialized troops, gear, and vehicles. They aren't seen later since the plot didn't include an encounter with the ISB. And the bureau's credibility is going to take a huge hit by the end of Rogue One. Thus, the Emperor turns to his trusted Sith Lord instead to hunt the Rebels. It makes too much sense. Their failure explains why we instead see Darth Vader and white-clad Stormtroopers hunting Rebels afterwards. I so want Krennic to be ISB!
AT-ACT: All Terrain Armored Cargo Transport. The only extra word is "Cargo" when compared to AT-AT's. It has less firepower (no big chin guns) and a large panel on the sides (cargo doors?).
My interpretation is the AT-AT is an assault troop transport while this version is specialized to carry much more weight in its role of carrying heavy, valuable, cargo. It's still armored with the "A", but perhaps less so then the AT-AT (or possibly just no shielding). I imagine the inside is gutted of speeder bike racks, passenger seats, and shield generators to make room for more cargo. Then some armor plating has been removed to allow carrying of heavier materials such as large crystals?? It wouldn't make sense to see an AT-ACT on Hoth since it's primarily a cargo vehicle for very valuable materials.
The most interesting thing for me is it opens us up for more AT-AT variations. We have perhaps a one-off specialized VIC (very important cargo) vehicle and we have a troop transporter. Is there an AT-AA (Assault) version? No troops but a large multi-missile rack perhaps. Why didn't we see it on Hoth? Luke and other VIP's are at Echo base. Vader wanted them found and captured, not killed. So, send in the troops.
Assault Tank: Armored land speeder tank with lots of weapons. We didn't see it later because other vehicles were more appropriate for the terrain and/or mission?
Shoretrooper: Obviously a Stormtrooper. Canon references include it is seen defending "bunkers and beaches", thus the name. It's also seen inside the Assault Tank as its crew, but its name suggests its not just another vehicle crewman.
This is the hardest one for me. I hope it makes more sense down the road as we get more information, but I still have some speculations that could work? As said above, it seems its not just a Stormtrooper vehicle crewman. I hope not. We already have 3 versions with the AT-AT driver, TIE pilot, and AT-ST driver. Of course it could easily be explained away as crew for the Assault Tank only, but it's called a "Shoretrooper" for "bunkers and beaches", not a "Hovertank Driver".
Bunkers and beaches? Why have such a specialized troop?
First, beaches. Planets themselves are the "beaches" of Star Wars invasions unless you take it literally (we DO see a beach in the trailers). I suppose they could be specialized invasion "Marines", then again we see other Stormtroopers (desert, snow) being used for such. We also see standard troopers on the ground on Endor (not just on ships and stations) or it would be easy to make surface troops be: Desert, Snow or Shore for temperate climates. I suppose they could just work as the standard surface drop Stormtrooper when the climate doesn't require Desert or Snow versions? And standard Stormtroopers are sometimes seen on the surface since they are by far the most common troop after all (you still see Army troops after a Marine invasion).
But, we also add "Bunkers". It could mean they aren't the drop invasion troops, but the opposite - elite surface defensive troops. This could mean Shoretroopers are elite troops sent to guard facilities against pending attacks against their shore/beach/bunkers. They are given defensive speeder tanks with lots of firepower and man prepared positions (bunkers) against eminent attacks. Makes complete sense that they would be used in key defensive positions to defend the construction of a Death Star. BUT, it also makes complete sense to have them literally defending a bunker on Endor also part of a Death Star construction project. I suppose it could be explained away that the Emperor sent his "most elite" legions of Stormtroopers and no defensive shoretroopers made the cut? Their overall quality is a notch below the standard "assault" Stormtrooper?
Thoughts?
If I remember right I heard that the new Shuttle is specific to the Imperial Death Troopers under Director Orson Krennic.
