I was flying a Rebel list the other day and was using Jaina's Light to fire at a ship that was moving 3 and had the Admiral Montferrat card. My opponent says the shot would be obstructed while I thought it wouldn't be. Anybody have an answer?

There has been some discussion on here before on this question, and I don't think a consensus was reached. Not sure if it's been submitted to FFG for clarification, but I haven't seen the answer if it was, so would probably be a good one to email them on.

For reference:

Jaina's Light

You can ignore the effects of overlapping obstacles.

Your attacks cannot be obstructed.

Admiral Montferrat

When defending against a ship, if your speed is 3 or higher, treat the attack as obstructed.

After you execute a maneuver, if you overlapped a ship, discard this card.

My personal interpretation is that Jaina's Light supersedes Montferrat. If you treat a JL attack as though it were obstructed, the title would come into play, preventing it from being so.

I can definitely see the other interpretation being true as well, though, because it's not obstructed , just treated as if it were . I think the interpretation depends on to what degree you treat the attack as obstructed. Which is not clear.

Also, full disclosure, I definitely have a dog in this fight: I frequently run a CR90 swarm that virtually always includes Jaina's Light. So I'm not exactly the most unbiased opinion on this question.

I believe Jaina's Light would supersede Montferrat. The "Cannot' on the title beats out other card effects.

Right, but only if the "cannot" is referring to one side of two conflicting cards. If "treat the attack as obstructed" doesn't encompass the attack actually being obstructed, then there is no conflict and the golden rule is irrelevant here.

Just playing Devil's advocate--I agree with your interpretation, but there's definitely ambiguity there. And as demonstrated in the past, ambiguity always leads to FFG making the worst possible call.

I would actually argue that Montferrat wins here. The wording is to treat the attack as obstructed, not that the attack is obstructed. Therefore JL's effect doesn't trigger, because the attack is not obstructed. FFG tends to be very intentional with their wording, so they could have left the Montferrat wording as "the attack is obstructed," but they didn't.

Now this is just my reading of it. I could see an argument for both sides, and would be fine with whichever way they're ruled. But I think this is one that only FFG can arbitrate, because you can make a very logical argument either way.

Two issues here.

"Treat it as" has to be the same as "is", because if it isn't, then whole other cans are opened .

Same as

We need to keep the Golden Rule Absolute. If they Golden Rule is Absolute, then the Advanced Gunnery-Trumps-All Crowd Wins.

Lets keep it absolute.

I guess my question back is:

How do you treat something as obstructed, without referring to the obstruction rules, and thus, ignoring them, as the attack cannot be obstructed with Jainas?

I guess my question back is:

How do you treat something as obstructed, without referring to the obstruction rules, and thus, ignoring them, as the attack cannot be obstructed with Jainas?

This hits on what I'm trying to get at: I think the question hinges on how completely you are treating the attack as obscured . From gathering dice pool? Declaring target?

I don't have the RRG in front of me right now, but I'm sure you do, Dras. Can we identify exactly where in the attack sequence Jaina's Light and Montferrat are invoked? If so, my instinct is that, if JL takes effect after Montferrat in the sequence, it definitely supersedes him. If not, there is a discussion to be had. Montferrat takes effect "while defending against a ship," which would be immediately when a target hull zone is declared if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure where exactly JL would take effect to block an obstruction normally, but I think if the RRG specifically calls out a "check for obstruction" step, that would be it.

Unfortunately all I can offer right now is strategies for looking for a solution, without my well-worn RRG.

Obstructed.

Cannot be obstructed.

So. . . I am going to say some things that will likely get me hated on. . .

So when you check Line of Sight you are also checking for Obstructions (Jaina's cannot be obstructed), however when you enter Roll Attack Dice step, you lose a die for being treated as obstructed. . . Two seperate timings. . .

I am in the camp that Jaina's Light does not become obstructed, however, the timing messes with this a little.

So. . . I am going to say some things that will likely get me hated on. . .

So when you check Line of Sight you are also checking for Obstructions (Jaina's cannot be obstructed), however when you enter Roll Attack Dice step, you lose a die for being treated as obstructed. . . Two seperate timings. . .

I am in the camp that Jaina's Light does not become obstructed, however, the timing messes with this a little.

Boo this man... BOO THIS MAN!!

I kid. In seriousness, I can definitely see your interpretation as valid as well.

This is how I see the resolution going (note for simplicity I'm skipping a few steps I don't think are germane to the discussion)...

Normal obstructed attack:

• Declare target.
• Check arc.
• Measure LoS.
• LoS is broken by an obstacle.
• > Obstructed
• Gather your dice.
• Remove a die for obstruction.
• etc...

JL attack:

• Declare target.
• Check arc.
• Measure LoS.
• LoS is broken by an obstacle.
• > Obstructed
• > JL negates obstruction
• Gather your dice.
• etc...

Montferrat attack:

• Declare target.
• > Treated as obstructed (" while defending... "; defending starts here)
• Check arc.
• Measure LoS.
• Gather your dice.
• Remove a die for obstruction.
• etc...

JL /Montferrat attack:

• Declare target.
• > Treated as obstructed
• Check arc.
• Measure LoS.
• LoS is broken by an obstacle.
• > Obstructed (treated as obstructed)
• > JL negates obstruction
• Gather your dice.
• etc...

I'm interpreting "treat as obstructed" in a little bit wider scope than you are, I think. I'm resolving every single step from the time Montferrat is invoked through the end of the attack exactly as I would if the attack were obstructed. This includes negating the obstruction with Jaina's Light , just as you would for a regular obstructed attack.

Now, I believe that your interpretation puts the resolution like this:

JL /Montferrat attack:

• Declare target.
• Check arc.
• Measure LoS.
• LoS is broken by an obstacle.
• > (JL would negate obstruction here, but there is no obstruction at this point)
• > Montferrat resolves, treated as obstructed
• Gather your dice.
• Remove a die for obstruction.
• etc...

If we interpret "treat as obstructed" to apply only from the "Gather dice" step (which is the first step at which it would have an impact on the resolution) through the end of the attack, this is a valid interpretation order, which is why I could see your interpretation being correct as well.

This is why I think it all hangs on how broadly you interpret that "attack" that is treated as obstructed by Montferrat, rather than a question of "does the golden rule apply or not?", and is why I think it could really go either way.

Despite my ill feelings towards Han Solo, i'll keep my personal commentary to myself, since we are talking about the man's mother...

Under rules reference glossary, "attack", number 1 : obstruction is determined first thing... if you go further and read under line of sight, technically it is declared obstructed during that step (still as you declare the "attack" on a ship, first thing)

so they happen at the exact same time.

There is no "defending" phase... there is only the "attack" phase and the "damage" phase.

now lets look at the wording:

Jaina's Light: Your attacks cannot be obstructed.

Admiral Montferrat: When defending against a ship, if your speed is 3 or higher, treat the attack as obstructed.

because they happen at the same time, it doesnt matter how Montferrat said its obstructed, or why, or when, or from who... Jaina clearly says "cannot be obstructed".... and since they happen at the same time, and jaina is doing the attacking, i'm sorry, but i think jaina wins..

as a noob, thats my 2 cents, take it as you like.

I have to agree with but pirates interpretation.

All I will say is:

We fought this Discussion Before.

With the EXACT same Post Name:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/200404-jainas-light-vs-admiral-montferrat/

This...all of this...this has all happened before.

And will again.

I wrote my original post this morning, and then went out to secure a new TV (because it was cheaper than a new monitor)... By the time the new computer was up and running, I was scratching my head while waiting for it to secure its neccessary windows updates, and going to myself "I'm sure we've already had that Jaina's discussion before...."

So as soon as I was online, I ran the Search - and boom - Two Topics, Exactly the same Name, one started Yesterday, one started back in January...

I guess I'd just filed it so far "done" that I had scrubbed it from my mind - which is why I didn't say "We discussed this already" first thing this morning

Now if I could only get FFG to answer my Shipless Hyperspace Assault question...

*Waggles eyebrows significantly at first sentence of first reply...*

"Some Discussion."

I feel somewhat invalidated and am going to go sulk in the Fleet Builds Forum, now.

I remembered the original version of this so I thought it was that one.

My interpretation goes:

STEP 1:

Declare Attack Target

>>Check Arc

>>Check LoS

>>>Obstructions are noted here (Jaina's Light goes here)

>>Check Range

STEP 2:

Roll Attack Dice

>>Gather Attack Pool

>>>remove die here for Obstructions (I believe Montserrat goes here)

>>Roll Attack Pool

>>Modify

Etc. . .

This...all of this...this has all happened before.

And will again.

Its true. All of it...

Because of this bullet in the Effects Use and Timing in the RRG:

• If both players have effects with the same timing, the first
player resolves all of his effects with that timing first.

Wouldn't the resolution of this depend upon who has the Initiative for the game?

I would say "Technically No."

The Timing for Admiral Montferrat is Specified: "While Defending."

The Timing for Jaina's light is not inherently specified, but We're interested in the "Attacking" side, so one could argue its "While Attacking".

While Attack and While Defending are similar times, but not the same time...

I still believe that Cannot is absolute, and it was reinforced to me in the Email I was PM'd on Facebook in the "Advanced Gunnery 1st Player" Thread.

The passage in question is more for things like - a Mirror match involving Han Solo - both have the same trigger - "At the start of the Ship Phase...."

When I read "While defending", I see it just as a simpler way of saying "While being the target of an attack".

Personally, I am hoping that the "cannot" trumps all, but also feel the need to play devil's advocate as well just to make sure we are doing things right.

I definitely feel like both apply (because of course they would.)

Monty treats as obstructed.

Jaina ignores the effects of obstruction.

"If a card effect uses the word 'cannot', that effect is absolute." RR, p.1 The Golden Rules

I believe Jaina's Light effect is "absolute".