The x7 title in the upcoming Imperial Veterans expansion gives you a lot of extra points to play with when running 3 Defenders compared to the current version of the ship. The TIE/D title obviously gives nice options for lower point cannon variants as well. The following is a list of combinations that seem interesting to me. I'm also interested in hearing anyone else's ideas.

Delta, TIE/D, Ion Cannon, Mk2 Engines (x2) 68

Delta, TIE/D, Tractor Beam, Mk2 Engines 32

-control and good damage

Onyx, x7, Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade (x3) 99

-tough as nails, might not hit hard enough

Delta, x7, Engine Upgrade 32 (I'm dubbing this the Clarkson pattern Defender)

Delta, TIE/D, Ion Cannon, Mk2 Engines (x2) 68

-as list 1 with a crazy-fast blocker

Delta, x7, Engine Upgrade 32

Glaive, x7, Juke (x2) 68

-gives up control for tougher, higher PS ships with Juke, maybe drop to Crack Shot for Mk2 Engines on Glaives?

Glaive, x7, Crack Shot (x3) 99

-One hell of a hammer, but still tough. Sub in Vessery for a point

Delta, x7 (x2) 56

Vessery, TIE/D, Ion Cannon, Outmaneuver, Hull Upgrade (or Mk2s on all 3 ships) 44

OR

Maarek or Rex, TIE/D, Ion Cannon, Predator, Mk2 Engines 43/44

-tough Deltas with a control ace

Delta, x7 (x2) 56

Rex, x7, Engine Upgrade, Predator 42

-tough Deltas with a fast ace

Onyx, x7, Mk2 Engines (x2) 62

Vessery, x7, Juke, Hull Upgrade 38

-tough Onyxes with a tough ace

The problem with the Defender is that its dial, the awesomeness of the white K-turn aside, is really rubbish. It desperately needs the mk2 engine, which in turn closes the door to all other modifications, thus limiting its potential builds.

I don't see generic Defenders ever becoming competitive. Vessery might, though, but you really need to build the list around him if you want him to be able to use his full potential. Not a huge problem, but it limits when and where he can be taken.

The Countess is yet to be seen, but if her pilot ability is good enough she might see play. Rexler is a lost cause. His ability is so situational, and doesn't synergize with any of the new stuff.

The problem with the Defender is that its dial, the awesomeness of the white K-turn aside, is really rubbish. It desperately needs the mk2 engine, which in turn closes the door to all other modifications, thus limiting its potential builds.

The Reds on the hard 1 and 2 turns are very harsh but this is not really mitigated by the TIE/Mk2 except that it makes it easier to shed the stress next turn.

I don't see generic Defenders ever becoming competitive. Vessery might, though, but you really need to build the list around him if you want him to be able to use his full potential. Not a huge problem, but it limits when and where he can be taken.

I am going to withhold judgement on the generic Defenders. Being able to shoot twice with the /D title is a pretty powerful ability. Even at PS1, the humble Delta will pack a punch while 3 hull, 3 shields and 3 agility means it will should live long enough to get plenty of rounds of shooting in. I have also tried proxying Glaives with the x7 title and Juke and they are pretty impressive as they combine a decent amount of defense and offense in an action-free package.

The big question with the Glaives is how much they will cost. At 33 points they look good. At 34, Vessery's ability starts to look like a bargain for just 1 extra point.

The problem with the Defender is that its dial, the awesomeness of the white K-turn aside, is really rubbish. It desperately needs the mk2 engine, which in turn closes the door to all other modifications, thus limiting its potential builds.

I don't see generic Defenders ever becoming competitive. Vessery might, though, but you really need to build the list around him if you want him to be able to use his full potential. Not a huge problem, but it limits when and where he can be taken.

The Countess is yet to be seen, but if her pilot ability is good enough she might see play. Rexler is a lost cause. His ability is so situational, and doesn't synergize with any of the new stuff.

The Countess is certainly an unknown that could prove interesting. I think you're wrong about generic Defenders, though. I don't like them now, but the x7 pushes them to an interesting price point and makes them very, very tough. Torpedo Scouts make PS1 blockers pretty interesting these days, but the traditional PS1 blocker for Imperials (Academy Pilot) doesn't hit hard and frequently gets killed before it shoots. The Delta will contribute offensively, and can move into a blocking position, take a Target Lock on something, get a free Evade to protect it against a different ship, and K-turn the next turn with TL/Focus to put real damage on something.

I still like Rexler because PS8 is looking to be an important PS these days. Carnor (brought on by Torpedo Scouts), The Inquisitor, and Omega Leader are all looking to be pretty important ships that Rexler's PS8 is competitive with.

The problem with the Defender is that its dial, the awesomeness of the white K-turn aside, is really rubbish. It desperately needs the mk2 engine, which in turn closes the door to all other modifications, thus limiting its potential builds.

I don't see generic Defenders ever becoming competitive. Vessery might, though, but you really need to build the list around him if you want him to be able to use his full potential. Not a huge problem, but it limits when and where he can be taken.

The Countess is yet to be seen, but if her pilot ability is good enough she might see play. Rexler is a lost cause. His ability is so situational, and doesn't synergize with any of the new stuff.

No, what's rubbish is this kind of short-sightedness.

Generic Defenders with titles are incredible.

I have had plenty of VASSAL games now with generic defenders. My triple delta ion defenders are currently 7 - 0. I also participated in a VASSAL league (TC league season zero) in which I flew almost exclusively TIE defenders in some form. I went 7 - 1, and at least 4 of my matches were against some of the best players in North America. You can even view the matches since they were uploaded to the Challonge website (although you need VASSAL to do so).

TIE defenders are legit. And that is not theory-crafting. Also, this perceived NEED for TIE mk 2 engine to make up for the so-called deficiencies of the dial is poppy-cock. I almost never fly with TIE mk 2 (although I have used it) and I never feel somehow at a disadvantage positionally speaking, even when I have to take on the stress hog (which I have a few times). Stresshog dies relatively quick to defender firepower.

here are some builds I feel are very strong, even in light of the new torpedo scouts possibly dominating an evolving meta:

Onyx Vessery

Vessery w/ ruthlessness, tractor beam & TIE/D = 39

2 onyx pilots w/ X-7 = 30 x 2

99

This is an evolution of Kinetic Operator's DVD list, upping the PS to 3 to better deal with torpedo scouts. The list has an excellent mix of high firepower (mainly due to Vessery) plus durability (The onyx pilots have a good chance of simply shrugging off a torpedo to the face with minimal or no damage thanks to defensive token stacking). Having Ruthless is nice because you know your opponent is really going to gun for Vessery. This lets your Onyx get into good flanking or blocking positions (as needed) and grab target locks to power Vessery's attacks. And tractor beam means your ships hit hard even when Ruthless doesn't proc.

Another option is to go with Rexler instead of Vessery:

Rexler w/ X-7, hull upgrade and either Juke or Lone Wolf = 40.

You lose significant firepower but gain a really hard to kill tank. Juke is easier to use, but I really like the fact that lone wolf is action-independent and gives a slight increase in the chance that you will get to actually use Rexler's pilot ability on occasion...

I've also ran Vader alongside a pair of Onyx squadrons to very good effect. You can either go with VI + Proton rockets on Vader (along with X-1, ATC + engine) or Lone wolf (and same). Either way, you have enough points for Tie Mk2 on each Onyx.

I've had good success with 2 other lists featuring Vessery, but they are not triple defenders, so I won't include them here.

Triple deltas with ion cannons are really going to suffer against torpedo boats, so I'm probably going to shelf that list until the contracted scouts become less common. It also suffers against IG88s (or any 'alpha strike' type of list with PS higher than 1). Other than that weakness though, its very difficult to defeat, especially for rebel ships with 1 or 2 agility (they simply cannot stop the ion, and then the defenders can easily get behind and clean up). Imperial aces also struggle surprisingly, because they are forced into less than perfect scenarios: must spend actions to avoid potential blocks/arcs and even when they have a token, they typically want to save it for defense due to ion threat, so they frequently take unmodified shots...

I haven't had a chance to play with Glaive pilots yet, since its not spoiled and therefore not available on VASSAL, Biophysical has already listed some possible builds (I really like the Juke Glaives + engine Delta!)

So TL;DR---Defenders will definitely be causing trembles in the force when Imperial Veterans arrives...

Rexler is a lost cause. His ability is so situational, and doesn't synergize with any of the new stuff.

Rexler doesn't seem badly off to me. I think many people like to to run him with the HLC and as such, they don't see the point in pairing him with the new titles.

However it does offer ways to play him. Add the x7 title and maybe Juke. Most turns he will be able to get both Evade and Focus meaning that more of his hits will get through for you to flip with the Focus token. Alternatively, take him with the /D title, Tractor Beam and Predator. Hit them with the tractor beam first to reduce their agility for when you fire your primary weapons. Again the result is more hits for you to flip with the Focus. And at PS8, most of the rest of your fleet can benefit from the reduced agility of the target.

Both these builds are cheaper than Rexler + HLC yet still offer a significant boost to his punch. I think Rexler with either title could end up being fun to play. Even if he does not turn out to be top tier, there are still competitive builds available and anything that provides an alternative to the HLC mono-build has to be a good thing.

I haven't had a chance to play with Glaive pilots yet, since its not spoiled and therefore not available on VASSAL, Biophysical has already listed some possible builds (I really like the Juke Glaives + engine Delta!)

That's my favorite of the list as well, and didn't come to mind until I had gone through other lists (hooray for brainstorming!). That PS1 starts looking really good as a blocker against Jumpmasters, and the Engine makes it hilariously fast. All three can shrug off a single torp hit and still have some shields left if they've got tokens. Honestly, the PS1 looks good as a blocker against anything, because low PS matters a bit less when you're as tough as an x7 Defender.

I haven't had a chance to play with Glaive pilots yet, since its not spoiled and therefore not available on VASSAL, Biophysical has already listed some possible builds (I really like the Juke Glaives + engine Delta!)

That's my favorite of the list as well, and didn't come to mind until I had gone through other lists (hooray for brainstorming!). That PS1 starts looking really good as a blocker against Jumpmasters, and the Engine makes it hilariously fast. All three can shrug off a single torp hit and still have some shields left if they've got tokens. Honestly, the PS1 looks good as a blocker against anything, because low PS matters a bit less when you're as tough as an x7 Defender.

Yeah, I'm definitely stealing this idea when its out

The crackshot Glaives w/ X-7 is another good one. I think it will be better without Vessery though. Only because at PS 6, its really important to bid a point for initiative since it makes a huge difference against IG88s

I haven't been giving engine much thought on Defenders. Thanks for giving me something else to consider!

Do glaives have an ept? I would imagine yes, but YA lists it as no. Happen to have the point cost on those too?

Do glaives have an ept? I would imagine yes, but YA lists it as no. Happen to have the point cost on those too?

We don't know for sure. I have made the assumption they do for the purposes of this project (obviously). The points are also an assumption, but I feel like it's a pretty good one.

This is an evolution of Kinetic Operator's DVD list, upping the PS to 3 to better deal with torpedo scouts. The list has an excellent mix of high firepower (mainly due to Vessery) plus durability (The onyx pilots have a good chance of simply shrugging off a torpedo to the face with minimal or no damage thanks to defensive token stacking). Having Ruthless is nice because you know your opponent is really going to gun for Vessery. This lets your Onyx get into good flanking or blocking positions (as needed) and grab target locks to power Vessery's attacks. And tractor beam means your ships hit hard even when Ruthless doesn't proc.

Can you elaborate on this? I am of the understanding that Ruthlessness procs if the TB hits.

I've also ran Vader alongside a pair of Onyx squadrons to very good effect. You can either go with VI + Proton rockets on Vader (along with X-1, ATC + engine) or Lone wolf (and same). Either way, you have enough points for Tie Mk2 on each Onyx.

I would think this takes a LOT of planning to pull off...Still, that makes a great list.

He means if there are no other ships at range 1

The crackshot Glaives w/ X-7 is another good one. I think it will be better without Vessery though. Only because at PS 6, its really important to bid a point for initiative since it makes a huge difference against IG88s

I haven't been giving engine much thought on Defenders. Thanks for giving me something else to consider!

That's why I'm doing this!

I'm with you on the triple Glaive list. At first, Vessery seems like a no brainer, but the triple Glaives wins that mirror, and definitely has an advantage against 100 point bots as well.

anything with Stealth Device isn't "hard as nails," unless you're referring to the habit of chewing them you'll develop when praying for the green dice to save you (they won't)

imo, the x7 Glaive with Crackshot/Juke is going to be your mainstay. It's got crazy PS for outgunning everything from TLTs through scouts through all things meant to outgun those two (crackswarm) and it hits worth a ****.

Tie/D will most likely prove too expensive for anything short of Vess, given Defenders don't have consistent offensive modifiers outside of that one pilot (unless the Countess pulls through, ofc). Could see some Tie/D t-beams if small ships continue to run rampant, but given the recent popularity of scouts/ghosts and the continuing popularity of the impossible to hit palp aces, I personally highly doubt it

this will leave us, imo, with double crackshot Glaives rolling around with a crackshot Vess (all x7s)

Tie/D will most likely prove too expensive for anything short of Vess, given Defenders don't have consistent offensive modifiers outside of that one pilot (unless the Countess pulls through, ofc). Could see some Tie/D t-beams if small ships continue to run rampant, but given the recent popularity of scouts/ghosts and the continuing popularity of the impossible to hit palp aces, I personally highly doubt it.

I've had good results with HLC Defenders right now. TIE/D Ion Cannon Defenders are 4 points cheaper, hit almost as hard in some circumstances and harder in others, and add in an element of control. You'll want Vessery or Predator or Lone Wolf (or maybe even Outmaneuver) or something like that, but I think they'll be solid. This is an extreme case, but think about how great Miranda is. Now think about how not great she is when she's stuck going 1 forward with a 1 speed slam. Same for Poe. Think about all those easy to hit, fast, large based ships that get tagged with their second Ion token, and now your whole list can focus on them. That's powerful stuff. They're not amazing against Scouts, but they'll add to your damage, and occasionally make them drift into asteroids, or bump, or other useful activity. The ion isn't particularly great against Palp Aces, but it's not bad. None of those aces want to get shot twice, and they'll have to defend against the Ion Cannon, potentially pulling tokens or Palpatine usage for other ships or the primary attack.

Tie/D will most likely prove too expensive for anything short of Vess, given Defenders don't have consistent offensive modifiers outside of that one pilot (unless the Countess pulls through, ofc). Could see some Tie/D t-beams if small ships continue to run rampant, but given the recent popularity of scouts/ghosts and the continuing popularity of the impossible to hit palp aces, I personally highly doubt it

Even the humble Delta with a /D title will be rolling 6 red dice a turn allowing up to 4 damage and your choice of Stress/Ion on the target. Stress and Ion both mess up U-boats as it makes it harder for them to pull off their torpedo runs. Ion is more effective but takes 2 tokens. Even stress is not bad as their oddly wonky dial means they have no green right-turns.

While 3D is great, I don't think there is going to be too much diversity there because of the point costs. 2 Defenders + other stuff seems like a more diverse list building realm. I am especially excited about pairing TIE/D Ion Cannons with Outmaneuver. It makes Soontir and other aces start to sweat, and poor 1-2 agility small based ships just don't stand a chance.

I'm liking most of those lists. I think the key to triple Defenders will be getting the mix of X7 and /D titles right and I'm looking forward to testing out whether the X7 with Juke or Crackshot outputs more damage than a /D with Ion or Tractor. I'm wondering if a pair of Glaive X7s with no EPT backed up by a Tractor Beam Vessery would work. Possibly not as it relies too heavily on Vessery hitting and having EPTs on all the ships is probably more useful.

I'm not sure about Stealth Device on a low-PS X7. As you point out in the OP they probably won't have high enough damage output and I think it's a lot of points to invest in a ship that lacks some of the tricks most SD-carriers use to get the most out of the upgrade (autothrusters, arc-dodging, extreme token stacking).

I also disagree about the Defender dial being terrible. It's not great but as long as you're not stressed it has all the options you could ask for. I flew Vessery at a recent store championships and I don't think I ever needed the 1- or 2-speed turns. Maybe Imperial players are a little spoiled by the great dials on the Interceptor, Tie Fighters and the Phantom's trickery?

I'll definitely be giving the Engine Upgrade Delta though - that just seems like a lot of fun and extremely annoying for your opponent.

While 3D is great, I don't think there is going to be too much diversity there because of the point costs. 2 Defenders + other stuff seems like a more diverse list building realm. I am especially excited about pairing TIE/D Ion Cannons with Outmaneuver. It makes Soontir and other aces start to sweat, and poor 1-2 agility small based ships just don't stand a chance.

I agree, but this thread is taking Defenders to 11 3.

Tie/D will most likely prove too expensive for anything short of Vess, given Defenders don't have consistent offensive modifiers outside of that one pilot (unless the Countess pulls through, ofc). Could see some Tie/D t-beams if small ships continue to run rampant, but given the recent popularity of scouts/ghosts and the continuing popularity of the impossible to hit palp aces, I personally highly doubt it

Any Defender with an EPT can take Predator or Lone Wolf for rerolls which will be more effective if they are shooting twice per turn. There will potentially be 5 EPT Defenders (assuming the Glaives have an EPT slot) so that opens up a lot of options. You only have to look at the popularity of BTL-A4 title for Y-wings to see how good shooting twice is.

Even the humble Delta with a /D title will be rolling 6 red dice a turn allowing up to 4 damage and your choice of Stress/Ion on the target. Stress and Ion both mess up U-boats as it makes it harder for them to pull off their torpedo runs. Ion is more effective but takes 2 tokens. Even stress is not bad as their oddly wonky dial means they have no green right-turns.

I agree. The EPT Defenders will, I suspect, be running some attack upgrade card (or be Vessery) so both of their attacks will be somewhat modified. The Delta and Onyx, when running the TIE/D title with Ion Cannon (or something else, I guess) will basically be using an action on the attack that's most important. If they're trying to slow Poe down, they may want to spend their Focus on the Ion shot to try and make sure it hits, but if they're trying to finish off a Y-wing, a Focus in the Primary shot is probably the best bet. That being said, there will be a lot of times it won't matter anyway. An Ion Cannon isn't getting extra damage with extra hits, so it will often not need to be boosted to get maximum effect. In general, I do suspect that we won't see many TIE/Ds without an EPT supporting them. Fleet Officer builds might be an exception. Particularly if some cool variant of Jonus Brothers makes a return.

I'm not sure about Stealth Device on a low-PS X7. As you point out in the OP they probably won't have high enough damage output and I think it's a lot of points to invest in a ship that lacks some of the tricks most SD-carriers use to get the most out of the upgrade (autothrusters, arc-dodging, extreme token stacking).

I also disagree about the Defender dial being terrible. It's not great but as long as you're not stressed it has all the options you could ask for. I flew Vessery at a recent store championships and I don't think I ever needed the 1- or 2-speed turns. Maybe Imperial players are a little spoiled by the great dials on the Interceptor, Tie Fighters and the Phantom's trickery?

The idea behind triple Stealth Device x7s (and I'm not saying it's a good idea, as I mentioned above, the firepower of the list is lacking) is that the first ship probably loses its Stealth Device right off the bat, but it's still going to take a while to take down. While that's happening, the three Defenders focus on killing the most damaging enemy ship (ie, the one that is most capable of breaking a Stealth Device). The second Defender will keep its Stealth Device for that much longer, because fewer ships will be there to shoot at it, so its defensive tokens will be that much more effective at keeping the Stealth Device going. The third Defender should be the hardest, because there won't be a lot of stuff left. It should be able to ignore most single shots by this point and drag the remaining enemy ships down by attrition. Obviously, nothing ever works out as well as planned, but that's the idea.

I'm with you on the dial. There are a few that are unconvinced, but both blade_mercurial and myself (and others) have played Defenders pretty extensively and have no complaints about the dial.

Rexler is a lost cause. His ability is so situational, and doesn't synergize with any of the new stuff.

Juke/x7/stealth on Rexler is grand. Gottagofast for the offensive mod, TL while the shields are up, hold on to it til they go down, then grab focus with the action and make with the pew pew.

I flipped like 4 or 5 crits yesterday with this, it was good.

Stresshog hurt it a lot though. Only having straights to clear stress stunk - but you can still get your offensive mods from Juke in that situation which is great.

Tie/D will most likely prove too expensive for anything short of Vess, given Defenders don't have consistent offensive modifiers outside of that one pilot (unless the Countess pulls through, ofc). Could see some Tie/D t-beams if small ships continue to run rampant, but given the recent popularity of scouts/ghosts and the continuing popularity of the impossible to hit palp aces, I personally highly doubt it

TIE/D is very strong and works well on generics. The thing is, you are throwing a ton of dice at your targets. Just like poop on a wall, some of it inevitably sticks. As I said, even Fel has to think twice about flying into arc of one or two ion deltas.

Having quite a few games under my belt with Triple ion defenders, I feel its a strong list, but as mentioned it does have bad matchups. Triple u-boats, IG88s, and even z-95 swarm w/ concussion missiles will really mess it up (alpha strikes that threaten to kill 1 defender before it shoots is crippling).

Biophysical's 'jetting' defender can help out there though (i.e. Delta w/ x-7 + engine).

To specifically combat torpedo scouts:

1 delta w/ x-7 + engine = 32

1 Onyx w/ TIE/D + tractor beam = 33

1 Onyx w/ TIE/D + flechette cannon = 34

99

Flechette is not great control, but it does make the delta's job as blocker easier. You could fit ion cannon in its place (although it is worse against large-based ships, so its more of a meta call).

Damage output on this list is no joke. Delta blocks one u-boat. All 3 ships unload on another u-boat. You eat possibly 2 torps, but a defender can survive that (dice depending). Next turn things do not look good for the u-boats. According to my napkin math, you should be dealing 5-7 damage to one u-boat in the opening salvo, and with careful positioning, should be able to get 2 defenders on target next round to finish it off. If you didn't lose one defender already, that becomes a very hard to lose scenario, and even if you did, its 2v2 so still winnable...

And once those torps are spent, it gets a lot harder for the Scouts to damage the Defenders.