Scoring should not be made public during the event.

Announcing or posting scores does nothing to enhance the event. The only thing it provides for is negative feels.

"You know, I only need a 5-5 draw to win the event."

"We're friends and you already won a bye so let me win to get my bye."

"Let's 5-5 draw to lock in our 1st and 2nd place."

The only reason to keep scores public is to provide opportunity to collude. Sure, a player could try and figure out the scores by asking around, but if it was generally agreed to be poor etiquette people wouldn't do it.

part of me agrees but at that point the TO/EO should not be participating in the event as they will clearly know all the scores and others won't.

At regionals/Nationals/Worlds you shouldn't know but honestly its not hard to figure it out or have a very good idea. I have not intentionally drew out a game. I have however intentionally delayed engagement knowing that the less time my opponent has to damage me the greater the chances of me walking away with 1st place. Some may say that's unsportsmanlike, but others will say its tactically smart to play to your advantages and the disadvantages of your opponents.

And this is why I don't like tournaments... How about you just attend the thing knowing that at least one person values the final outcome more then your fun. At least that way you will not be discouraged by these sort of problems.

It's a shame that's how you feel Wes. I've had a blast at all the tourneys I've been to. Scoring/draws is not a crippling issue. Just currently part of the game - a part you can choose to ignore and just play fun games.

You guys do realize that in order to ID, both player would have to accept. No one can force you to not play the game out if you'd prefer. So if you just want your 3 games, you can get your three games.

Furthermore, without a Top Cut there is almost no situation in which taking an ID would be advantageous to both players, so they simply won't do so.

I understand how it works, I just wouldn't do it personally. More power to anyone else that wants to do it.

In Magic, it is considered colluding and highly illegal. I hope the next update they make to the rules take IDing out.

It's colluding only if there's some material contingent upon it. Players can ID as long as no talk of prize splitting is discussed.

IDs happen in magic all the time.

Further, people that are worried about 'playing the game out' because they came there to play: you can submit a 5-5 draw and still play your game for fun.

If you're worried about this FFG needs to award bonus points or something for actual wins. Keep the scoring system, but For a win you get extra points, a tie gets you nothing and a loss gets you nothing. Say 2 extra points so the most you could have in a three round tourney by round 3 is 24. You ID for round three and get no bonus but 5 points at 29. A person who won 8-2, 8-2 is going to have 20 points then and if they win 8-2 again, or 7-3 they will be at 30 or 29 respectively. And at 29 they would win with MOV due to the draw.

I'm just spit ballin' because I do agree that ID is dumb and it does take away from the point of going to a tourney. Heck I even considered it once because it's logical. Why take the chance of losing a game when you know you will win and the person your playing will get second and isn't planning on going to a regional. I still played and 10-0ed.

But I think adding some sort of bonus incentive for playing and winning would help. The biggest problem with that is that is it widens the gap between the top and the bottom players making losing a bigger issue.

On the other side of things. Does this really happen that much? That someone is that far ahead? I can only imagine this would be a case of a 2-3 really solid players going to a store that doesn't have a lot of veterans and somehow, miraculously not getting matched up.

Actually enforcing this is very difficult. There's a similar phenomenon in Wamachine (boo! hiss!*) of players intentionally "scooping"(conceding) to others in tournaments. This is often done for one friend to another, from one teammate to another, etc., to improve the odds of winning the event to the benefactor of the concession. It's also (understandably) pretty unpopular because the shared mythology of a tournament is that everyone fights their hardest and then the best guy wins. Unfortunately, any attempts to stop outright concessions often result in deliberately bad play, which is effectively the same thing as a concession but turns the entire exercise into a joke.

If two guys decide to split the game there's very little you can do to stop them. Everyone sets their speeds to 0 or 1 and does basically nothing all game. I understand why this would make many people unhappy, but a TO can't force two players to attack each other. An intentional draw just changes the farce into a quick decision.

*Sorry, I loathe Warmachine like only someone who played it for years and then finally walked away possibly can.

ahhh Warmachine. the play base and page 5 kinda did that one in for me.

ahhh Warmachine. the play base and page 5 kinda did that one in for me.

I could go on at length, but I've derailed this thread enough already . My bad. If anyone wants to gripe about Warmachine with me, feel free to PM me. We'll have a fun little whine session together. Haha. For now, we should get back to the topic at hand...

Indeed. NO DRAWS!

Playing devils advocate here but isn't taking a pledge to not allow a completely legal action a type of collusion and score manipulation. I feel voicing your distaste for the rule it perfectly legitimate but at the moment it is allowed which makes attempting to get someone DQ'd for doing so unsportsmanlike behavior. I would worry more about winning your games and less about what the top tables are doing personally. If you are claiming you came to play then the ID rule means absolutely zero to you. I will be curious to see how many times it actually happens.

I don't really care in the long run how it gets ruled as both ways are perfectly fine. Probably best to not force your own personal beliefs on someone else and just play by the rules in the meantime. Also in that X-Wing example, that is pretty much impossible to have the entire top 8 draw into the top eight. Also scores need to be public to insure that everything has been reported correctly over the event. Correct scoring over an event is probably the most important part. I can understand maybe hiding MOV but tournaments points need to be public.

@ Scottie and Og, an Armada tournament for me is a chance to play three games against three new opponents. I want to win all my games of course, and while knowing the score can help you make decisions like risking that last ship to try and change a 7-3 to an 8-2, I don't believe that knowledge makes the overall experience more enjoyable. Just go in blind (and drunk) and play to win all your games. Simple.

But Tark I think a lot of people see tournaments different to you, I feel like for a lot of people a tournament is not just an opportunity to play three games against (hopefully) new opponents, but also to test their skills and see whether or not they can come out on top. I can't recall who said it, but someone here made the great comment that winning shouldn't be all important, but trying to win is a major part of having fun at these events. Having the standings is important information that factors into trying to win not just your games but the wider tournament.

This could just be indicative of my own lack of ability. I'm just not talented enough to play at different speeds.

"Hm, this situation requires me to play at 7-3 speed rather than 6-4."

Yyyeah, rrright.

People do have different speeds though, it's just thought of more in terms of how bold their deployment or battle strategy is. It won't be a defined 'speed' change, but it will be an overarching tempo shift. A player trying to score an 8-2 or a 9-1 is going to be flying drastically different to someone who knows they only need a low scoring victory and is working to secure that with the least risk possible.

I am confused. You are saying FFG added the ID rule, but you want to report people who ID? Am I missing something?

He's saying it because ID'ing could be used as a cowardly way to ensure you make a cut, because the RAW is pretty murky on the collusion rules. As he stated in his article, an ID is allowed as long as it isn't colluding. However, an ID directly influences your score, meaning that it should fall under the collusion rules, as both players have to agree to it. If I was a TO, I also wouldn't allow an ID, unless they had a **** good reason why.

I am confused. You are saying FFG added the ID rule, but you want to report people who ID? Am I missing something?

FFG added the ID rule and basically made it impossible to use at the top tables without it being collusion or functioning as if it were collusion.

The only reason a player at the top tables should be accepting a draw is if something is forcing a complete evacuation of the venue and the game cannot continue, or if a complete 10-0 tabling at all tables would not affect the standings.

Indeed. NO DRAWS!

I would allow a draw in the event of a stroke, maybe a heart attack as well. Depends how bad the heart attack was.

I would request that those who are not going to be using the FFG organized play rules please post that on your events. That way the rest of us can tell the difference between an actual event following the rules and those that will be including house rules of this type. Again I feel I should say I don't care either way for how someone wants to run a league but as I learned with 40K it's the worst thing to show up to an event with house rules I was unaware of until after round 1 was already over.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! If you are running a regional this year, just run it by the FFG organized play rules. We need to keep as many places eligible for running X-Wing events as possible.

I would allow a draw in the event of a stroke, maybe a heart attack as well. Depends how bad the heart attack was.

What are you, a f*****g casual?

Having the physical fitness to finish a tournament without dying is what keeps me in such good shape.

Consoling myself with ice cream after losing tournaments is what keeps me as the fat dweeb that I am.

Scoring should not be made public during the event.

Announcing or posting scores does nothing to enhance the event. The only thing it provides for is negative feels.

"You know, I only need a 5-5 draw to win the event."

"We're friends and you already won a bye so let me win to get my bye."

"Let's 5-5 draw to lock in our 1st and 2nd place."

The only reason to keep scores public is to provide opportunity to collude. Sure, a player could try and figure out the scores by asking around, but if it was generally agreed to be poor etiquette people wouldn't do it.

The scoring system means scores are already semi-public knowledge. Further, Swiss rounds are set up to ensure that a player goes effectively undefeated. A player going into the last round without any losses is pretty much guaranteed to have at least a minor benefit by drawing the match.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! If you are running a regional this year, just run it by the FFG organized play rules. We need to keep as many places eligible for running X-Wing events as possible.

There's no Please here.

That is the Rules.

A Regional Event that is not adhering to the Rules is not adhering to the rules and is liable for FFG sanctions.

We don't have to like the rules. We don't have to agree with the rules... But the entire point of the Organized Play system is to provide a framework for Consistent Experience wherever they are being played.

If the Rules Allow the Intentional Draw, then the Rules Allow the Intentional Draw.

The Rules disallow colluding. If in the TO's opinion, an Intentional Draw is Colluding, then it is Colluding, and will be judged and applied as so.

FFG's new set of rules do now have potential long term consequences... Bans from FFG events Can, Will and Have been enforced - thankfully, not for Armada as of yet, but they follow the same Universal Guidelines in this manner...

I will admit that my own personal feelings are in complete and utter conflict with everything that is being said... But that is irrelevant to the matter... In the competitive ruleset, the rules are the rules, wether you like them or not.

I would request that those who are not going to be using the FFG organized play rules please post that on your events. That way the rest of us can tell the difference between an actual event following the rules and those that will be including house rules of this type. Again I feel I should say I don't care either way for how someone wants to run a league but as I learned with 40K it's the worst thing to show up to an event with house rules I was unaware of until after round 1 was already over.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! If you are running a regional this year, just run it by the FFG organized play rules. We need to keep as many places eligible for running X-Wing events as possible.

Thankfully, it is.

Intentional Draws is contingent on the "Unsporting Conduct" rules, which prohibit collusion to affect tournament scores.

Top tables intentionally draw? Scores affected. Done.

Back in the good old days, if the tournament judge didn't think the one lying on the sand had given his all, the thumbs up would be given.* It really kept the compeditors hearts in the game.

*Please note, Cecil B. DeMille got the whole thumb up/down thing reversed.

I definitely get where you're going with this, and to an extent I agree with you. ID'ing to make the cut is really manipulating the rules of the game, and involves no skill (other than being able to do some simple math). I wholeheartedly agree that a tournament victor should be the person who played the best for three rounds, not the guy who played really well for two and then convinced his opponent to settle for an ID.

But it's impossible to enforce. Impossible. As multiple people have stated, how do you enforce this? Taking an ID just prevents the two players from having to deploy their fleets, set their speeds to zero, and flip a bunch of command dials six times. Even if you wanted to declare that unsporting and illegal, those players could deploy at opposite edges and not fly near each other. Even if THAT is declared illegal, okay, so we fly straight at each other at speed one, exchange one round of fire and the ships least likely to die, and call it a day.

The problem with unsportsmanlike conduct is that it's very hard to define. To quote a supreme court justice, "I know it when I see it." But you can't write a rule to cover every situation. And you can't force two players to play a competitive game if they don't want to. They will find a way to pull punches and still find a draw. They could even do some math and figure out which ships they could each kill to keep the points in balance and end with a 5-5. It's hard to do, sure, but not impossible.

I would request that those who are not going to be using the FFG organized play rules please post that on your events. That way the rest of us can tell the difference between an actual event following the rules and those that will be including house rules of this type. Again I feel I should say I don't care either way for how someone wants to run a league but as I learned with 40K it's the worst thing to show up to an event with house rules I was unaware of until after round 1 was already over.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! If you are running a regional this year, just run it by the FFG organized play rules. We need to keep as many places eligible for running X-Wing events as possible.

Thankfully, it is.

Intentional Draws is contingent on the "Unsporting Conduct" rules, which prohibit collusion to affect tournament scores.

Top tables intentionally draw? Scores affected. Done.

FFG is allowing IDs for the exact reason you are asserting should result in players reporting others for unsportsmanlike conduct. There is no purpose for the ID rule if it can never be utilized which, by the misguided criteria you are setting up, would never be possible.

Again, the article that you linked makes it very clear that FFG accepted an ID from players for the purpose of ensuring that they both made the cut. Multiple accounts confirm this, and also confirm the entire conversation was held infront of a judge, and that judge ran it up the flag pole to get the explicit ok.

You're asking players to report legal behavior to a TO, nevermind the fact that they by the rules were already involved in the conversation. You are then asking players to appeal past the TO to FFG when they rightfully do nothing about legal behavior. When FFG is the source of the legal behavior now being legal and whom has run thier own events allowing the, again, legal behavior.

At best you're imploring people to waste the TOs time and at worst harrasing other players because you don't like the rules. Somehow I expect that to backfire on you.

I was all for taking the pledge, thinking that OF COURSE I'm in this to play three awesome games of an awesome game!

Then I realized...does that mean I shouldn't use my store champion bye? Yes!

And I realized that does make me a bit hesitant...after all, I want to win the regional if I can as well. I was already torn about taking the bye, as I do want to play as many games as possible (it's fun)...but perhaps this will push me into not using my bye.

What I'm trying to point out is - do byes fall into the same category as ID's?

What I'm trying to point out is - do byes fall into the same category as ID's?

Not generally, because you are making your decision before you know who it effects other than yourself.

And Byes are only first round, they generally don't involve the sticky issues that apply at the end of the tournament.

I think you are all thinking about this wrong.

If we want to convince FFG to remove this, the correct way to do this is to troll them by having EVERYONE at a regionals event agree to intentionally draw every single game.

Congrats, we now have 40 people tied exactly after 4 rounds. 40-way tie for first.

Take that, FFG.

So who is with me? Can we get the entire Armada community to pledge to intentionally draw at every single regionals even until FFG removes this from the rules?